Nooooo, you cant brainwash people like we do!!! its only the right thing to do when we do it!!!!

Base game was like this too
>Wow, these characters make really good points about the dangerous precedent the actions of the Phantom Thieves set and how extrajudicially brainwashing people to confess their crimes is wrong, assuming that's what's even happening and they're not just creating false memories
>lol but that doesn't matter because everyone who thinks this is secretly an evil dickhead, looks like the thieves were right the entire time

Does Zig Forums really want to live in a dream world? What's the point. I grow so tired of this stale argument

If it's not real, it's not worth doing

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They weren't creating false memories or forcing people to confess crimes though, so those points are moot. If the person committing the crime didn't feel they had to make a confession after having their heart stolen because they hadn't done anything wrong they wouldn't make a confession. It's only because they have distorted perspective that they were able to act that way initially.

How do you figure out if something is or isn't real?
How do you know it wouldn't be real?
How do you know the way things are now is real?

P5R fucks up by making it so NO ONE realizes anything is wrong, other than the MC and Goro who have god powers that Maruki intentionally spares. In the "bad" ending, you two are the only ones who know something is up.

Yeah, the difference is that the PT are retards while Maruki logically wanted to help humanity.

Those two aren't the only ones who realize something's wrong, you find NPCs like the hobo and the girl who's always arguing with her boyfriend about going back to the country that something's wrong.

>you two are the only ones who know something is up.
Save for the fact that the other characters come around to despising the dreamworld on their own?

Giving someone everything they've ever asked for isn't the answer to lasting happiness. It's fleeting at best, and for most it would be over the moment they had nothing left to strive for. True happiness is obtained in the pursuit of happiness, it getting there and not being there, and Maruki was literally robbing everyone of that

Which is fine in itself. It's no different than their conflict with Yaldabaoth.
But unlike with Yaldabaoth, there's no global rejection of his methods, or no actual explanation as to why what he's doing is wrong. The game had ample opportunity to explain that, but it doesn't.
But what's never explored is if what the PTs are doing is right or wrong. The game suffers from cognitive dissonance going on here, where no one in the cast realizes their own hypocrisy. The salt in the wound is that the game was aware of that with the Goro interviews and early Kasumi social links, but never actually follows through on that train of thought.

The problem with P5's plot isn't the concept, just the execution.

It's a role playing game. It's not the game's job to make a decision for you, it merely introduces the concept that yes, maybe stealing hearts is wrong. You could, at any point, decide not to, and that could be your ending. It's not an interesting ending because it doesn't go anywhere. The world continues normally.

>Giving someone everything they've ever asked for isn't the answer to lasting happiness.
That's subjective. Happiness is that feeling that comes over you when you know life is good and you can't help but smile. It's the opposite of sadness. Happiness is a sense of well-being, joy, or contentment. When people are successful, or safe, or lucky, they feel happiness. People who are stuck at rock bottom with no way out are just cheated out of happiness.

>there's no global rejection of his methods, or no actual explanation as to why what he's doing is wrong.
It's made pretty clear that the PTs aren't comfortable with having someone control their lives and take away the experiences they had of fighting for what they have.

>in the cast realizes their own hypocrisy.
There is no hypocrisy because they just don't agree with Maruki. There are things they agree with him on, but those things aren't the source of their conflict. Agreeing with someone on some points, but ultimately opposing them because of other points does not make you a hypocrite.

This devil's avocado talk might have had more weight to it if there was a single person who got a change of heart that didn't deserve it

The only difference between the PTs and Maruki's goals are the scale of them and the effectiviness, which Maruki perfected. They are fucking hypocrites.

I guarantee Zig Forums would hate Maruki's world instantly because you chodes would have wishes like "kill all niggers" or "make the girl I liked in high school like me back", and he'd say "no way fag" because it fucks with someone else's happiness

If someone got a change of heart but didn't deserve it they wouldn't have been able have a change of heart in the first place. That the PTs can induce a change of heart in the first place means that person's cognition has been distorted, they couldn't bring a change of heart to anybody else even if they wanted to. Bringing a change of heart to somebody who arguably doesn't deserve it isn't a situation that's capable of happening with the PT's abilities.

The people most affected by Maruki did not realize it.

>Save for the fact that the other characters come around to despising the dreamworld on their own?
No, they didn't. They only realized something was wrong when Joker confronted them. If you submit to Maruki, you get an entire ending sequence that shows they grow old without knowing a single thing, other than Joker and Goro who knowingly look at the camera.

>Giving someone everything they've ever asked for isn't the answer to lasting happiness.
Except that's not what Maruki did. He didn't give them everything they wanted. Kasumi is a huge case in point: she was still a dogshit gymnast even after Maruki actualized her. Ryuji still had to practice every day once he was on the track team. With Haru, Makoto, and Futaba he brought back people who died (which he didn't do with Kasumi, by the way), and he turned a cat into a human. None of these things solved the PROBLEMS or removed the STRUGGLE these characters went and are going through, it just fixed their bullshit, unfair life situations. Which is exactly what the Phantom Thieves were doing by magically making people confess to their injustice, which they realistically never ever would otherwise.

And this is going into a totally different argument altogether, but you sound like someone who's never gone through an actual personal hell if you truly think this.

The PT's goals were to bring people oppressing and controlling others to justice. Maruki's goals were to erase suffering for all and to give everybody what he believed to be the most painless, most enjoyable life possible. Those aren't the same goals, all they share is that they're both achieved by using the Metaverse and they both hope to change the world for the better through it.

People who cheat at games have distored hearts. Who the fuck does not have a distorded view in some topic.

This is probably my most hated cliche in just about anything: critiquing something down to the very foundation then not bothering to offer any alternatives or methods to fix it.
>X is bad! We need to stop doing it!
>Ok, what should we do instead?
>I don't fucking know, figure it out yourself.
Even worse, they already expect the audience to know the answer as if it was looking them right in the face, but they give no mention or even a hint to it whatsoever.

>That's subjective.
If you want to break it down objectively, it's a dopamine response. We have physiological tolerance built into our brains of how we respond to dopamine such that we get less reward the more things stay the same. Without overcoming larger hurdles, we reach an equilibrium where things quite literally become "blah". I couldn't find a more fitting word to describe Maruki's world. Happiness doesn't even exist without something else to compare it to. These are completely relative positions. You need strife or you have nothing.

>noooooo stop trying to help disabled and mentally ill people Maruki! You can't do that!

>you sound like someone who's never gone through an actual personal hell if you truly think this.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Turmoil makes us stronger. "I just want someone to snap their fingers and make a quick fix for all of my problems" sounds like you're someone who is or will soon be a drug addict, because that's ultimately all you want.

Maruki would end up bringing the door back to life breaking the seal and dooming the world

How many times do we have to repeat Maruki's world did have strife and personal growth? It just evened up the playing field by erasing the most painful happenings in each person's life. People who defend P5's writing tend to pick nd choose what the game presents to them.

PTs only brainwashed corrupt people, Maruki would have brainwashed everybody that exists. Meaning even good people with no problems would have to be mindfucked to account for the new reality. It's a difference between killing bad people to replace them with good people, and killing everyone to replace the sad and bad ones with good people. PTs method didn't require having to account for everyones memories. PTs are the lesser evil in the brainwashing game.

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Despite your feelings on Maruki, we can all agree that re-raping Shiho was kind of a fucked up for Joker to do right

You get dopamine from anything you know.

>People who defend P5's writing tend to pick nd choose what the game presents to them.
I'd say the same of these pro-Maruki shitposting threads.

We've heard the same argument over and over again and it's no more convincing the 173rd time than it is the first. Here's your (you), I'm out of here

Nobody would wish for death anymore if that happened, though, Erebus wouldn't even exist

Not suffering was the defining attribute of Maruki's world, it did not have strife. It's made plainly clear that it didn't in his Palace with the survey which deems you need a change of cognition if you think it's okay to put yourself at risk even for the sake of helping someone else.

There had to have been some conflict, you can't satisfy everyone. Someone's happiness is going to be contingent on someone's else's suffering at some point

Except Maruki didn't make everyone into rich supermen who were master artisans and scholars. He revived a few dead people who were killed unfairly, fixed a guy's knee, and changed someone's name. He did basic shit to fix gross injustice that otherwise would have been impossible.

Let me get this straight: you think that just because Ryuji's knee is fixed or Futaba's mom never died, that these people would face NO STRUGGLES OR HURDLES IN THEIR LIVES AT ALL? You do know Ryuji didn't become an olympian track star, he was simply allowed to participate again. Again, Kasumi is PROOF that you're wrong.
>fully actualized by Maruki
>still a second-rate gymnast
>still struggles with inadequacy and loss and relies on Joker for self-improvement
>still goes through so much trauma that she develops a fucking Persona
It's fucking ridiculous.

>I just want someone to snap their fingers and make a quick fix for all of my problems
Yeah dude, you can't get stronger as a person without your loved ones dying unjust early deaths and struggling every day with PTSD and crippling mental trauma. Futaba's existence pre-palace was truly peak humanity and what everyone should go through.

Sounds like he does a shit job of fixing people's suffering desu

Going off of the couple always arguing outside of the mall, his solution to that was to make one party in any conflict just agree with the other party and be okay with it, seeing as he completely rewrote the country guy who had been complaining about the city the whole game so that he had no problems with the city anymore and was fine to stay there. In any case, regardless of the practicalities of how he would achieve it, it was Maruki's goal to create a world with no suffering and he saw a willingness to suffer for whatever reason in people as something that had to go.

This is literally contradicted in the game itself with Kasumi. Strife does exist in Maruki's world.

Maruki's world is objectively in the right, it lets people who are completely fucked over have a chance at leading a good life.

Fully actualised my ass, he turned Sumire into Kasumi despite the fact that she'd ultimately be happier if he just revived Kasumi.

No it isn't because Maruki sees Kasumi as the source of strife. It was his belief that her existence brought down Sumire, while her believing she was Kasumi brought her happiness, and evidently he didn't see her existence as a necessity for anyone else's happiness either, and given that Sumire is shown to be happy in his world, it can be taken to be that he's correct.

I agree with a lot of Maruki's ideals. But can we really trust a single person to be the world's caretaker? It's similar to the idea of government by benevolent dictator, which is possibly better than other types but runs a huge risk.
What did you expect from "x did nothing wrong" threads? Eventually people run out of new points and they get repeated. It's fun to argue though.

Yeah but what if the existence of the Jews is just destroying my functioning in life, and I really need them dead

>Fully actualised my ass
You're finally realizing what actualization actually means.
It's not "my life is now literally perfect with zero struggle or reason to live whatsover", which is what you seem to think.
It's simply allowing people who are utterly fucked over and in completely unjust situations to live again in some capacity. It is literally just rehabilitation.

I imagine he would make you be supportive of the Jews, or at least content with them, making you actively supportive of them seems like a bit much.