TBH fam, Palestine is one issue that's bumming me out a lot especially after the recent Gaza massacres. You have one of the weakest groups of people subjugated to apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war, borderline genocide at the hands of an illegal criminal army. But what angers me even more is the lack of action *we* can feasibly do in the West. I mean, I participate in BDS, I raise awareness at any chance I get, I try to buy Palestinian goods when I can, I support my Palestinian friends, I attend anti-war demos, I protest AIPAC and try to raise awareness on the influence the Israeli Lobby has on American foreign policy, I try to educate others on the history of the conflict and everything in between. But I still feel at a loss. A group of people is being systematically wiped out Nazi-style and I can barely do anything to stop it. I'm sitting here in America enjoying the spoils of imperialism at the cost of so many.
Does anyone else feel this way? Is there anything else we can possibly do to help our Palestinian comrades?
I feel like I am missing something about Palestine. I obviously oppose imperialism and Israel can burn for all I care, but were there actual acts of physical genocide? And is there anything particularly leftist about Palestine because they seem to be basic reactionary muslims to me (not that it justifies imperialism)? I'm not very educated on the topic.
Adrian Bell
If any other country was doing what Israel is doing it would be labeled genocide in an instant by the entire world. Compare Palestine to the Rohingya crisis or Kosovo and you'll see what I mean.
The best thing we can do is to make anti-Israel positions more acceptable in the West. Very many liberals still consider anti-zionism to be antisemitic.
Samuel Allen
Realize too that many strategies the Palestinians have tried have also ended miserably for them, and I say this as someone who holds that any act of resistance is entirely justified from a moral standpoint.
They tried preventing the Jews from migrating to Palestine - that didn't work.
They tried fighting Israel directly - that didn't work.
They tried regrouping in Lebanon and Jordan - that didn't work.
They tried hijacking planes - that didn't work.
They tried spontaneous acts of resistance - that didn't work.
Now they're trying to get white people to boycott Israel - while BDS has done a fair job of raising awareness and has definitely scared Zionists shitless, it's actual affect on the Israeli economy has been minimal at best. Lorde canceling her Tel Aviv show is a drop in the bucket compared to $2 billion in aid America sends Israel every year.
These demos going on right now, while prolific in their own right aren't achieving much except publicity.
Wyatt Sanders
Yeah it does suck, and it's only going to suck more as criticism of Israel gets banned in colleges, a long term goal of my Senator (Dianne Fienstien), whose husband is a University of California regent. The last leg student Palestinian groups have to stand on is the First Amendment, but Milo happened and most of the student body is now against free speech. Meanwhile IWI continues to do business in California, and is a popular pick for Zig Forumsfaggots with more money than brains. The sad fact is that this war is probably lost. This demands that the attention be brought to dealing with Jordan specifically, since it's clear that is where Netanyahu wants to deport all the Palestinians who refuse Israeli citizenship.
Palestine's government is more leftist than Israel's because they lack access to regular markets. This demands more cooperation and trust with each other, creating the basis for a tenuous socialist state. Problem is that this is still a state based around religious identity, so even if everyone is a socialist they're still spooked by their korans. Israel's left is much more coherent but also cucked because Israelis are unironic nazis who vote for NutSac parties.
Kevin James
True but awareness only goes so far. American support for Israel is already going down yet American policies have not changed.
Ryder Scott
Socialism is way more than just cooperation though. Without the productive forces you're not going to be successful.
Brody Lewis
This is literally the asceticism argument. The only way a country can develop being removed that far from the world market is by going fascist. National Liberation is a fossil praxis which only worked during the Cold War because newly-liberated states would turn to the USSR as their hegemon. We don't have a socialist power in the world today that could serve the interests of isolated nations like a potential Palestine.
Elijah Watson
Exactly hence why Israel blocks physically blocks access to international trade through ground checkpoints and their air force. The means of production are forced to stay regional, if not on a township-by-township basis as more and more checkpoints are erected. Gradually the grip tightens and the ability for an independent organization to form is strangled. Again hence why I mention Jordan. For as defeatist as it is to say, dealing with them is at least plausible since Israel doesn't want to invade them (as Jordan functions as a buffer state). 5 million Palestinians would give Jordan 16 million against Israel's 9 million.
Luis Gonzalez
And such a thing still exists, see Russia's support of Assad. Problem is that Russia won't ever venture into Israel because Israel is a nuclear armed state now. Bombs talk.
Angel Martinez
Well that and the fact that Russia and Israel aren't necessarily at odds with each other. Putin and Bibi are fuckbuddies and neither one wants hostility towards each other. Plus Russia is neoliberal as hell, definitely not a socialist state.
Localized markets =/= socialism
Once again, how does an isolated Palestine develop the productive forces for socialism if they're primarily isolated? They'd have to go turd position.
Xavier Collins
Anti-semite. I kid. youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4&t=16m38s This whole video is golden but this guy is on some next level shit: Other highlights include: The evils of racemixing, calls to carpet bomb Palestine, and a ditzy valley girl who says that they won The Israel territories fair and square, and a heffer who says the Jews were the first people to step foot in the area and it was the racist Arabs who kicked them out so all their claims are null and void.
I think is probably right - if this was happening somewhere (not necessarily anywhere) else there's a chance that there could be geopolitical ramifications.
People build mortars out of pipe, primers and powder through feces and urine. Hand-woven carpets and hand-built furniture are traded for metal for firearms.
Lincoln Adams
There wouldn't be a "chance", because the ramifications were real. In particular in regards to Rhodesia and South Africa, both of whom were best friends with Israel right up until the bitter end. In fact, the RSA was such good friends with Israel they helped them "dismantle" their nuclear weapons, and an Israeli firm has the exclusive rights to "dispose" of the Highly Enriched Uranium produced by SA's lone nuclear power plant. Also the largest Uranium mining company in SA is Israeli.
Jackson King
Not socialism. How do they feed their population efficiently? Look at Gaza and how fucked it is due to political and economic isolation.
Brayden Cooper
This. Putin, Trump, Erdoğan and Netanyahu are part of of the same global reactionary phenomenon.
Lincoln Butler
You could probably safely add Berlusconi and arguably Le Pen (even though she lost, she is part of the same phenomena), as well as Duterte to that list of global reactionaries.
OP, one thing you're leaving out here is that these are issues which have to be resolved internally. Foreign activists can change their own countries' policies towards the situation, but at the end of the day Palestinians and Israelis are the ones who have to figure it out for themselves.
Recognizing your limits as a activist isn't a bad thing, in fact it's needed as far as pragmatism is concerned. Obsessing over Palestine is akin to obsessing over Kashmir or Rakhine: it's heinous and your government needs to be held accountable for participating, but boycotts, marches, and education are what you're only able to do. And there's nothing wrong with that.
You're not Palestinian or Israeli. You're not on the ground fighting or deciding political policy for them once the fighting is over. Just like how international activists could only get apartheid in SA removed in name only (and not economically like what is happening now, hence the land reform) international activists' activities concerning Palestine will ultimatley be limited as well.
Elijah Foster
Not in ✡✡✡America✡✡✡.
Lucas James
Most anti-BDS legislation has failed. Plus people have been boycotting Israel for decades now.
Hunter Bell
not to mention a lot of US states are now passing laws to make boycotts of Israel illegal
Samuel Martinez
Unless I'm buying military or buying spook services, havn't I likely been boycotting Israel my whole life anyways?
Ryder Morales
No one is stopping you from refusing to buy Israeli foodstuffs, SodaStream, etc. Anti-BDS legislation goes nowhere because it's unenforceable for individuals.
Gabriel Taylor
*military gear
Also: Until the boycotts start working.
Justin Gutierrez
BDS has done some good to raise awareness. The problem is, it doesn't go far enough because boycotts themselves aren't enough. South Africa had intifadas every week FFS. Palestinians don't actively resist nearly as much.
Liam Sanders
I'm just saying where would I possibly come into contact with Israeli products? I'm not trying to buy weaponized drones and shit.
sodastream, max brenner chocolates, tons of fruits and vegetables are grown in israel, if you buy anything from a kosher supermarket theres a 100% chance your giving israel your money.
Computer chips. It's actually impossible to buy electronics without supporting Israel.
Brayden King
Hummus and generic pharmaceuticals is where your average person is going to possibly buy an Israeli product. US companies like HP and Caterpillar are also targets of the boycott because of their material support of the occupation. Honestly tho the boycott isn't all that vital. The real teeth of the project is in the divestments and sanctions.
Angel Roberts
lol oh Zig Forums, and Zig Forums you two are like brothers in cancer.
I dont mind reactionary fundementalist get killed. They are worse than liberals tbh.
Thomas Ward
Exactly, which is why companies and governments need to be targeted, not individual consumers.
To be hones though, the more that I think about it the more I'm convinced that the Palestinians' failiures (as said by: ) are a result of the Arab and Muslim mindset being way too steeped in the idea of fate (and I say this as a South Asian ex-Muslim). In Islam, everything is Allah's will. Free will and human agency don't exist, like at all. Arabs and non-Arab Muslims (Pakistanis, for instance) are notoriously impulsive and tend to hold an "act-now-think-later" mentality. This tire fire protest did nothing to stop Zionism and only resulted in hundreds of Palestinians being hospitalized for having been shot or inhaling the tire smoke.
Charles Garcia
read Jewdas faggot
Isaiah Kelly
Whole Foods and Trader Joe's are full of Israeli products. Couscous, hummus, tahini sauce, harissa sauce, matzo balls, pita bread, mangoes, bananas, cucumbers, Dead Sea salt, olive oil, etc.
Asher Howard
Also a lot of beauty products are made in Israel, usually by Palestinian slave labor. Always check the label to see where your hand cream was produced.
I honestly think Hezbollah might be the wildcard in this, they honestly do have the capability to fuck up Israel pretty badly with the amount of rockets and missiles they have amassed over the years.
Putting all eggs in one basket with a Hezbollah invasion of Israel or whatever is way overblown. They do a good job of defending Lebanon, but how do they defend Gaza? There's also no indication that they have the ability to wage a long-scale people's war especially given that their primary backers, Iran, have their own internal contradictions to deal with.
Jeremiah Campbell
The one very logical solution no one here has mentioned:
Talking.
Yeah it's not very exciting and you need a fair moderator (so, not America, more like China or Russia), but at the end of the day all the fighting isn't doing either side any good. Israel will always win a military conflict against Palestine. It has the bigger gun and there's no way around that. You need to get your shit together and fucking talk, but for reals this time.
Liam Sullivan
best thing you could do is just wait while raising awareness tbh this country will go to hell in the next 15-20 years, if not earlier
Daniel James
Good point. Yahweh may end up holocaustong your whole nation before long.
oh yeah they couldn't invade Israel, I am just saying they could cripple their infrastructure with the amount of missiles and rockets they have amassed if say a 3rd Lebanon war were to go down.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago the only options Palestinians have left are biological or nuclear. Otherwise they will end up like the native americans. The american establishment is completely bought off. The European establishment, while more open to being critical of Israel arent really doing anything but getting butthurt. As others have said. They have tried peaceful and non peaceful means. And are basically fucked.
So the basic strategy is "if i cant have it no one can"
I literally support Israel in this position. They are making a better society for themselves than if they gave Palestinians equal rights. Israel does bad things, but the other side is just as bad morally, imo worse because of the whole Islam thing. Regardless of who did what to whom when, Israelis are making a better society for themselves, instead of being subject to living on equal footing with muslims, many of whom support shari'ah law and terrorism against Jews.
Good. The native americans were savages and the US is much better off, having genocided them.
No, this is not a joke. It's probably a lot less extreme than ☭TANKIE☭s, who don't want what's good for society, they just want to autistically (like a zerg) roleplay the USSR under Stalin.
Julian Sanders
I admire the Persian and Arab people pre Islam.They carried the torch of science, exploration, experimentation, artistry, trade so far. Once Islam finally covered the entirety of the region, nothing of much has come from there scientifically since then.
Currently the least amount of scientific papers on the planet now come from Islamic nations. The least amount of experiments, discoveries, inventions, advancements, medical innovations.
It is sad to know that at one time Persia and Arabia were the species with the most scientific advancement, now delegated into the footnotes and margins of scientific history.
fascists dont really like jews and see the Israeli pali conflict as a alien vs predator situation
Jack Martin
hmmmmmm I wonder what material conditions led to that result. Nope reductionism lol
Henry Wood
not a fascist, right libertarian. Of course, I know, commies, aren't known for their nuance
Cooper Young
The condition of taking the words of a warlord raping, enslaving, thieving, torturing, murdering pedophile as the unquestionable highest authority of god probably has something to do with it.
They literally idol worship a gigantic black square in Mecca. They murder one another based upon if they pray towards this gigantic black square 3 or 5 times a day. Their life goal is to make a pilgrimage, the hajj, to visit the gigantic stone square with a rock glued into the side of it, and walk circles around it throwing fucking rocks at it like it was a little girl who was raped because she dared to go to school and read a book, in a soccer stadium in Afghanistan.
There can be no progress nor forward momentum of a people who follow this ideology. The only thing keeping them from regressing completly back into the stone age is the petrified, liquefied plant material under their feet that the whites process and sell back to them in barrels of gasoline.
Also please do not mistake my sadness for how far the once great Persian and Arabic people have fallen under Islam, for any support for the filthy rat clawed Jews of Israel.
They pray to a fucking wailing wall they think is close to a hole in the ground under a christian church, under an Islamic temple where a magical tablet inscribed by a fucking warlord rampaging madman named Moses made up bullshit about laws given down from a Jewish space wizard that he used as justification to mass murder half his people who were praying to a bull statue was placed in a box called the "arc" used by General Joshua to magically blow up walls of cities of non Jews in order to loot, rape and enslave the people.
But it can be argued the Jews contribute to society scientifically, medically. They contribute, after sifting through the mountains of betrayel they commit to their host nations like parasites, they do still contribute. Plus they are progressive, and make an effort to not stone gays or hanbg them from cranes, or toss them off rooftops. Although their fundamentalists still think period blood out of a hatchet wound is an unclean magical space jew crime, so go fucking figure.
Just imagine the aneurysm the kikes and muzzies would have if they saw puss oozing out of the butchered hole from a trannies loppped off cock chopping on temple mount.
"Free bleeding" of tranny cuck chopping hole puss all over the fucking dome of the rock and the holiest of holies. Squirt some onto Mecca as well.
There is literally no difference between Fascists and right Libertarians, and history has proven COUNTLESS times they side with each other.
Kayden Cook
...
Jace Wood
This is bullshit. The Arab world remained a cradle for science, philosophy and the arts well into the Muslim period — there is a reason why historians speak of an Islamic Golden Age.
Yeah, I really wonder what could have caused this. Maybe Western imperialism insisting on bombing the Middle East back into the Stone Age?
Disgusting. You sound like a 19th-century American anti-Catholic instinctively making up the most depraved pornographic stories and then projecting them onto their favorite boogeyman.
Georges Washington's Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton was critical of so-called free trade. The first major act passed by the American government was a tariff, and that set the trend for the century to come.
Protectionist policies were frequent during the Industrial Revolution. Shrewd capitalists knew that government intervention was necessary to protect local industry from foreign competitors.
Singapore's economic development was very dependent upon government policy. Most of the country's housing is state-owned, for instance.
Brayden Lee
Please. I was raised Muslim. You and all the others who insist Islam is compatible with Marxism have little knowledge of what Islam teaches. Also, "Shia socialism" is just class-collaborationism to the fullest.
Kevin Clark
I just find him to be interesting and felt like posting the picture, you don't need to sperg out I wasn't suggesting Islam was marxist or something
Ryan Hughes
How does Hezbollah cripple Israel? If they were to hit Tel Aviv they'd be immediately condemned, plus it's not like they - as Shias - have much support from the rest of the Sunni MENA.
Blake Lee
I think all of us are angry overall at being disempowered. It's like, we could be boycotting and protesting for 20+ years and it wouldn't do shit but feed our egos.
Chase Ortiz
Isolation hurts the prospects of socialism. If anything, a future Palestine will be heavily dependent on some bigger state. They're barely getting by as it is and everyone with money or an education is migrating to the West.
Jacob Wright
Just stick to educating others. That's where you can make the most impact. Once public opinion turns against "Israel" the entire state is toast.
Levi Brown
Every time I try to bring up BDS with anyone who doesn't belong to the ultra left:
Typical responses ordered from most retarded to most depressing. And this is despite me trying to avoid the topic of zionism and focusing only on Netanyahu himself. It sucks living in the UK.
Camden Flores
That's why we need education. Boycotts without education seem irrational.
James Phillips
You could easily make a left wing anti zionist argument with the logic of the 5th answer. If we have to fix our own countries first why send all that aid to Israel and fight wars on behalf of their national interest?
Owen Taylor
I'm a palestinian.
It really really sucks.
What sucks more is knowing there are some so called comrades that think Israel isn't so bad and people only hate zionism because they are anti-semtic/"hamas is just as bad"
fucking disgusting and show's a real lack of knowledge on the situation
dude fuckoff, you don't know what you are talking about if you think palestinians are all reactionary fundamentalists because a lot of them are muslim. You are a racist shit who doesn't even remotely understand the situation, it has nothing to do with "DURRR ISLAM" it has to do with defeating a colonialist fascist right wing apartheid state that gives them less rights so europeans can live on their land for religious reasons. Every palestinian i've ever met is leftist. One dude i met who lives in jordan now prays 5 times a day and is the PFLP.
To think palestinians have no leftist roots when the entirty of their history for the past 60 years has been about fighting racist colonialism is insane
they've tried everything, it doesn't work. it's like saying "why don't the kurds just try talking with isis"
Caleb Reyes
How anyone can be this stupid is beyond me. Imagine for one second your country gets invaded and everyone blames your anger because you are a christian and christians had the whole deus vult thing 1000 years ago. Then eventually the world sides with the agressors who turn you into second class citizens in your own homeland and slaughter you all because "They are christians and they support the whole killing their religious enemies to take land thing".
Also a huge amount of palestinians are christian, they get shit on just as hard as the muslims and support the palestinian struggle because they are palestinian and can blatantly tell when a fascist cancer on the face of humanity is perpetrating human rights abuses.
Eli Jones
Hoooooly fuccck you deserve a goddamn wedgie and perpetual bullying for talking like this much of a gringo white soccer mom
Kevin Barnes
wow you really are a goddamn light among leftists arent you?
Brayden Martinez
Do you even understand how fucking stupid you are
Oliver Campbell
And yet the PFLP has 3 seats in the Palestinian parliament, while the reactionary Islamist Hamas has 74. The PFLP's relevance is way overstated on the internet, it's basically a dead meme in Palestine ever since airport security started happening.
Caleb Lopez
The PFLP is like the Palestinian IWW in the sense where it barely exists anymore as a significant movement.
Connor Perry
Hezbollah still can't just "help" Palestine. They can't even drain Israel economically through continual war on the border, especially given that Hezbollah's primary source of support (Iran) is unstable itself.
Jose Barnes
so taliban were leftists too because they fought american and soviet imperialism… whoa
Zachary Johnson
woops
James Cruz
There is a strong socialist tradition within the Middle East, including Palestine, but it's being suppressed by Islamism, Zionism, Wahhabism and global corporate interests, it just shows that we should help them
