What are your guys' views on veganism and animal rights? (no

Talking about spooky…

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All animals must be killed, and with the most painfully brutal way possible. As a typical carnivore I propose that we torture all animals for a long period of time before we eat them. The extra stress levels would tenderize their meat just fine.

Yum, yum. Give me some tortured calf meat. Yum, yum.

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I eat meat and don't care about people wearing leather/fur….. as long as they earned it

Spooky

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You gotta take what's rightfully yours. The foxes were bornt with furs so I can feel warmer at winter. I'm a huge nature lover, like vegans, just with a different angle.

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My girlfriend is vegan.
I basically agree with her but I just don't find it a pressing issue. The best argument against it is the environmental one imo. But we can eat bugs to save the planet too.

...

It makes economic sense, to some degree. Large scale intensive meat production is extremely taxing on the environment, especially the waterways and atmosphere. And it takes much, much more arable land per calorie produced. Optimally, we'd all have low-meat diets, where the meat (and assorted products like milk and eggs) comes from animals grazing on marginal lands or fed on refuse.

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We've reached the peak of liberal magical thinking.

Imagine aliens coming to Earth and recording their own documentary movies about the "human tribes."

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Why are vegcucks always as dishonest at debate as liberals? Or is it just your brain damage from not getting enough nutrients showing?

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I'd eat that dog.

That would be very small meal, vegcuck

[bold] Never date a vegetarian

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Sure thing Guy Fieri

SHE WANTS IT BAD

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Is that guy known for eating meat?

8ch.net/faq.html#how-do-i-format-my-text
>>>/test/

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this is fucking hilarious
youtube.com/watch?v=RFWK4vU9doY

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we are biologically dependent on amino-acids found in meat. Proteins are formed by amino-acids, and amino acids are split into two categories: essential and non-essential. The non essential amino acids are created by our own organism as well as we are well fed, we naturally produce them, and they create protein. This is also the kind of protein vegans boast exists in seeds and some grain and plants. Then you have essential amino acids that our organism doesn't produce and can't produce, which are by and large found in meat and can only be substituted by expensive supplements. These are the proteins you get from meat, that you can't produce. Without these essential proteins you are at a deficiency to both your mental and physical capabilities, you are not running at 100% What is the purpose of amino-acids? the injection of proteins into your bloodstream, this is something that happens after a long rest or physical strain to rejuvenate your energy and reduce muscle strain. Political veganism isn't sustainable in an industrial society, people would function more poorly overall, and proles can't afford the expensive vegan supplements that replace these amino acids. What's worse, many vegans don't even take these supplements and it is pretty visible how "well off" they are.

Another fallacy committed by vegans is when giving the equivalency of their grain or nut in question as a replacement for meat as protein intake, they always match it up by weight. But in reality it isn't adequate at all to compare let's say a quarter pound of meat to a quarter pound of oats, because the oats have a much larger mass despite being much lighter than meat, if I eat half a pound of oats I will likely be too overstuffed to do anything while if I eat half a pound of meat I will be able to function with no problems.

Another thing that particularly irks me about political vegans is that they assume meat is being eaten in the excess, when this really isn't the case outside of burgerland and a few other offending nations. My nation for an example also has an obesity problem (~25-30% I think) but it isn't at all due to meat, it is actually due to over-consumption of bread, as it is represented in literally every aspect of our cuisine, because the average prole here is too poor to afford anything better, and when it's not bread it's pastry as we have an abundance of bakeries. Meat in reality won't make you fat, grains and dairy will get you fatter faster than anything else, while meat only makes you fatter in excess, which is applicable to practically every food. (except cabbage)

t.nutritions technician

there are amino acids in vegan cakes, tho

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another thing that I forgot to mention, the claim that animal fats are bad for you is a meme. They are the healthiest affordable source of 'oil', much healthier than margarine, butter or cooking oil. Vegetables fried in pigs fat are healthier than ones fried on oil, margarine or even butter from milk. The exception to this is some expensive oils such as olive oil or palm oil, or coconut oil. This is why I said 'affordable' before, such things are considered luxuries outside of the 1st world.

are there essential amino-acids or non essential amino acids? they are split in different groups. Ones our system can produce, the other cannot.

cakes are essential, yes

go away shitposter

red meat makes you more aggressive and is bad for your heart

Liberal idpol bullshit. Veganism is for hippie faggots.

True, then again I mostly eat pork and lamb, I was under the impression the most eaten type of meat is pork. Beef is expensive here, and most people eat pork or lamb.

What a load of pure ideology. How do you even measure something as vague as this? All goes to show paleodweebs are just as bad as new age crystal moms.

The "optimal" diet is link related: lots of vegetables, sweet popatoes, and small amounts of fish and meat. It'll make you live longer and get sick less.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

also the answer to avoiding negative effects of meat is to not overeat it, same as with any other food. If you eat too much of certain types of fish it is also unhealthy for you because it contains a lot of mercury. As for meat in general including beef it's positive effects cannot be overstated, it contains large amounts of iron and creatine, zinc, vitaming B, especially if you eat the liver. I would say it is especially good due to it's high creatine levels, despite creatine being naturally created by the body as well, as it recycles the energy currency of the cell in brain & muscle tissue. It is also key supplement for people with depression.

lmao
You don't need to have a meat based diet to function but you will also be dysfunctional if you explicitly leave out meat which is what I am pointing out. You will literally have less energy. Your muscles will get tired more quickly, you will get exhausted more quickly, you will gain muscle mass slower because they rejuvenate slower. How the fuck is this ideology? In proportion the intake of meat compared to let's say vegetables, grains and legumes should be about 10-20%, depending on what sort of work you do.

Thats not what the naturalistic fallacy it thougg, illiterate

Depends. Cruelty to animals is obviously off the table, at the very least because mistreated animals are a public safety liability, along with the numerous ethical problems. Companion animals are also intelligent enough to be entitled to dignity. But ultimately, the needs of people greatly exceed the needs of non-people.
Spooked lifestylism. Vegans overvalue animal rights and are delusional for thinking any product that so much as involves animals is inherently cruel, even if it does not require actually harming them, like with dairy products or eggs. Environmental concerns are better argued, but this is ultimately due to capitalism requiring infinite growth on a finite planet.

Useless when lab-grown meat tissue becomes mass-produced and affordable.

Imagine being this retarded
The argument about "ethical consumption" is that if you consume within the capitalist system, you still perpetuate capitalism, and that working within the system cannot change the very system it is in, because capitalism inherently perpetuates the injustices you are trying to consume yourself out of. This does not go for very real things like your carbon footprint, which does not operate within the system. Not driving a car, installing solar pannels to reduce your electricity consumption, not eating masses of meat (which is very ineffective and requires large tracts of land previously occupied by forrests, causing erosion and other negative effects), reducing fossil and petrolium usage, all do help. Eating bugs alone will not stop the large problem of climate change (this is caused by the large carbon cycle and us pumping masses of CO2 from fossil fuels into the air), not consuming meat will mean that slightly less forrest has to be cleared for your food, less energy need be expended, energy which is more often than not coming from chemically produced (thus fossil fuels) fertilizers and other stuffs required in the cultivation of meat.

Shit son thats terrible for you, its basically concentrated syrup with no vitamins because of the de-oxygenation, you also miss out on the fibre present in whole fruit.

Hi there comrade nutrition technitian.
I am on a typical wester european diet (dutch). I currently have a BMI of 24.9, and try to keep out any sodas and candies from my diet. I am trying to go to the gym 3 times a week, but otherwise have a stationary dayjob.
What changes to my diet, or a diet plan, would you advice to lose that extra bit of weight, to fit with my workout scheme, to be fitter in general? I would like to lose that extra bit of fat on my belly, maybe even lose enough bodyfat to be able to get a sixpack eventually, as well as buff up a little bit in general.
Should I cut bread? Carbohydrates? What kind of meal would you advice for lunch and breakfast if not something grain-based? Are these foods ok and in what quantities?

Thanks in advance. I dont need a bodybuilder diet, I just want to have a better diet. I will not hesitate to eat unhealthy foods if I am at a restaurant or whatever.

If I feed it, I can skin it. myfriend ;)

challenge yourself, i thought i would never go full vegan, but i did
see how much time you can be wihout eating animals and make an efford. it's easier than you think

why?

My largest contention with meat consumption is with the industrialization thereof - how energy and resource intensive it has become. Imagine for a moment the tens of thousands of the hectares of arable land, the millions of gallons of water, all of the trucks, tractors, irrigation equipment, the fuel to power these things and eventually transport their products, the availability and manufacture of fertilizers (and minerals within, especially phosphorous), and the impact of all of the pesticides that are used just to grow just the fodder that our livestock feeds on.

This same thought-process gets played out again when we consider the scale of livestock management - from the farmland and industrial housing (waste management) that must be created and managed to the antibiotics which much be manufactured and distributed to the pounds of food and water the livestock must consume to their eventual transportation to a processing facility to transportation again to your local grocery and finally to refrigeration, where after having spent too long on the shelf without being sold they will be thrown into the trash. Acres of land, gallons of water, fertilizer, pesticides, antibiotics, oil, electricity, all finding their way into a black plastic bag, now being transported one last time to a landfill. By the ton. Every day. But for how long?

There are innumerable extra energy expenditures involved with the process of creating industrial meat from start to finish that are, in my humble opinion, not necessary for human survival - indeed this extravagant energy-sink plays at least some part in the overall degradation of our collective ecology, and, ultimately, some porky gets to live in obscene luxury because of this massive chain of energy expenditure.

Humanity could, I think, survive well enough while eating a less complex diet that requires significantly less consumption of resources. I would dare to say that this is indeed the reasonable choice that a civilization would make purely from a resource-based perspective.

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Ban all breeding related to amusement, and ban zoos except for specific reasons (animals that do well in captivity, breeding needed to save species, etc)

As for veganism, will be achieved when insect based protein goes mainstream, or when fish farming greatly improves, until then I'll have to settle with my bacon

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hello user, well first off I am a technician, not a nutritionist which means I mostly just know the composition/additives of various foods, but I think I can help you out still. I'm the guy at the factory calculating what shit gets put in the food, not a doctor.

anyways, you should avoid grains entirely if you are trying to lose weight, especially bread and corn. Bread has a lot of carbs and sugar (which get stored in your body for longer and slow down the depletion of fats) eat more raw fruits and vegetables, cut out processed meat entirely, just buy raw meat and fry it or cook it yourself, best that you do it on palm/coconut oil if you can afford it and if you can't do it on grease, but just enough to fry it. Eggs are great for exercise, you should put them often in your diet and you can eat them any way you want. If you want to cut the weight, consume less dairy. Make your daily intake a cup of milk or a slice of cheese once in a day or two instead of eating it regularly. If you plan to build muscles you should avoid eating a lot of meat and dairy in general as it is full of estrogen from supplements being fed to animals to make them grow larger, you will gain fat faster and lose it slower. Eat meat two or three times a week, if you want optimal performance, if you need energy buy a can of tuna or sardines and eat that instead, and just pick up the oil with a piece of bread and eat it. Onions and garlic are very good for your blood flow and overall health so put them in food and shit, you can slice up an onion and fry it when you eat meat. Cereals are ok if you don't literally eat them every day.

What you need to avoid most is factory grade food if you are looking out for your health because we put additives in everything to make it taste better, last longer, and have a bigger caloric value. So if you are gonna eat bread buy it fresh from some bakery and not the bagged one, ditch sausages and other processed meats, ditch frozen pastry, etc. The fast food industry basically uses all of this so if you wanna get healthier don't eat fast food every day, but if you aren't a freak about this you will still be fine if you just eat occasionally these things. But if you want to lose weight, in the end the most important thing is to take in less calories than you spend. I lost 20kg just by not eating bread anymore.

There are certain amino acids that the human body cannot produce itself and are not found in plants, but these amino acids contribute very meaningfully to a good functioning body. This is a scientific fact. You would need very expensive, weird supplements to be able to have a full vegan diet, which almost no vegan actually fully has.
You can function without them, just like you can function on a diet consisting primarily on solely starch, but it will not keep you in the best state, mentally and physically, that you can be, and thus compared to one another, vegan diets are unhealthy.
This is backed up for me personally by anecdotal evidence of vegans/vegetarians who say that after 5-10-15 years (dont remember exactly, think it was 15) they begin to develop a massive urge to eat meat. Such an urge is a sign from your body that it lacks certain essential nutrients and that it has depleted whatever reserves it build up, causing you to crave foods that contain them. Its the same urge that makes you thirsty, hungry or crave salty foods. This indicates that the diet is lacking in certain nutrients. I know this is anecdotal evidence, but it is only there to strengthen position i already had based on the science.

Plants being farmed nowadays also involves a lot of water wastage, as seen in California.

which ones?

vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12

nutritions user here

histidine, lysine, threonine, methionine, isoleucine, leucine, valine, phenylalanine and tryptophan are the amino acids found in meat. While some plants contain these amino acids as well, only meat contains all of them. I can't remember exactly but I think Histidine is only found in meat.

Meat is red and therefore eating meat is socialism.

I'm a vegetarian because there's no way to guarantee animals aren't treated awfully even with bio labels (especially when meat is being mass produced) and because of environmental reason. I admire vegans for their commitment although I simply don't want to go that far personally. I can manage fine without meat and fish, but not without baked eggs now and then, and don't want to take supplements.
I don't think there's some inherent connection between vegetarianism/veganism and socialism, I just support both

let me guess, marxism is also just another religion?

Hm.
Raw vegetables or just raw fruits and cooked vegetables?
In the EU hormone supplements to livestock is prohibited. Would you still recommend reducing meat?
I didn't consume more than a glass of milk every so often, so that shouldn't be an issue
Does smoked bacon count as processed meat?
Would you advice cutting out potatoes and rice (or reducing them)? It is a significant part of our diet. Are they as bad, worse or better than grain/corn based foods?
What would a good breakfast and lunch be? Something like an egg, fruit and vegetables?

non human life is bourgeoise

lol you just described the food industry, not the meat industry specifically. I work at an industrial bakery, where each crew of bakers produces around 2500 units of individual pastries per shift, and there are around 5 crews of bakers per shift. At the end of the day there is so much excess QUALITY food, not this fodder you speak of, that an entire outhouse at the back of the factory is filled in to the roof, and then a truck arrives and carries it off to a land fill. In the south of my country, people are so poor they buy bread by the slice and this happens here. I think the meat industry just as any other food industry is entirely sustainable, CAPITALISM is unsustainable. You could feed a farm of pigs with that bread, but under socialism you wouldn't even need to produce that much, because there is nobody to compete with over storage space.

Since people can live fine on a vegan diet for years, I would logically conclude that they contain both.
I mean, you are a nutritions technician, you should know that if you combine incomplete proteins (e.g. grains + legumes), you can get all the amino acids you need.

Palm oil, and saturated fats in general aren't very good for you. Rapeseed oil is affordable and pretty healthy. Sunflower oil is okay too in these regards.
It's true that olive oil is one of the most expensive fats, but it's the healthiest and one liter of extra virgin one lasts me for a few months, and even as an alcoholic poorfag I use it as my main oil for cold and low-heat stuff because it isn't that much of an investment. Sesame oil might be a good alternative to it if you live in a country that doesn't produce olives.
But yes, give me lard and butter over margarine or "vegetable oil" any day. Animal fat is definitely healthier than this shit.

Don't tell me you fell for the paleo-ketomeme diet of /ck/.
The best meme diet is the Mediterranean diet which has been shown to be reduce cardiovascular diseases, improve cognitive functions during aging, and increased life expectancy overall, compared to most other diets.

It revolves around eating lots of legumes, grains (preferably unrefined), vegetables (onion, garlic, tomato, broccoli…) spices and olive oil, moderate consumption of milk-based products and fish, occasional consumption of mammal meat, and drinking a glass of wine with your meal.
It's pretty similar to the Japanese diet, and first-world material conditions aside, I believe this is the main reason why Spain and Italy are in the top 10 of life expectancy, ahead of every other European countries except Switzerland.

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thats not an aminoacid and its not produced by animals. even farm animals are supplemented with b12

greatist.com/health/complete-vegetarian-proteins

nutritionstudies.org/12-questions-answered-regarding-vitamin-b12/

There are tribes that live their entire life nutritionally deficient due to their environment. That doesn't mean its healthy.
Amino acids make proteins, not the other way around, idiot.

I would rather trust a nutritional technician than someone who doesnt even know how proteins work.

10%-20% meat is normal, mate. Its not paleo at all, what the fuck are you on about.
ok

raw fruit and vegetables. Cooked vegetables are also good, but if you are looking to cut weight it is best to eat them raw. Cooked vegetables should be reserved for large meals.

if in the EU hormone supplements are prohibited and you are sure that the farmers are not fucking over the state anyway then you are free to eat meat and drink milk. The optimum for meat is like 2 or 3 days a week. There is also steroids in meat and milk that cause the same issues but my guess is if hormones are regulated so are roids. Smoked bacon is fine, it is not processed meat, it is dried meat. Potatoes are pretty bad for the same reasons bread is but it is slightly better, so you should cut it out as well. Rice is fine. If you are trying to lose weight a good breakfast would be something like one or two fried or boiled eggs, with a tomato and/or some stone leeks. I am guessing that you exercise in the afternoon, so for lunch you should probably cook something proper, maybe some beans or a stew, or some meat or fish.
also avoid noodles, spaghetti, etc. They are as bad as bread unless they are made from rice.

at the end of the day you absolutely must eat less than you use calorically if you want to lose weight.

Fodder is the technical term for animal feedstock.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fodder

I largely agree with the rest of your post though. Capitalism is antithetical to sustainability, and I happen to find the meat industry particularly troublesome/wasteful in this regard, though it is certainly far from the only offender when it comes to wasted resources.

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Thanks user.

You literally can't derive all essential proteins from a plant based diet, you can derive some of them, the rest you have to get from meat, and at the end of the day meat is still a better source, considering it contains all nine of the essential amino acids.

Anyways, ten to twenty percent of meat on a diet based on grains and vegetables is perfectly healthy, I would even say it is optimal. I am not a ketofag nor do I keep a diet, I am saying this based off of what I studied and what I know about the various components of food.

Most mammals are conscious, sentinent, emotional and social beings and to inflict suffering and murder on them is pretty fucked up. Obviously socialism is for humans, but that argument you might as well argue to gas all mentally retarded people, as they are sometimes not above monkeys or parrots in intellectual capacity. Surely no socialist would be okay with that?
That's some spooky tribalism.

Of course, we would need to create a society in which vegetarianism is not a lifestyle or a question of income. Nobody can be blamed for eating meat in our current system. However, I won't go full vegan. I think drinking milk and eating cheese it's okay when it comes from happy animals without hormones. With eggs, meh, Idk.

Sure, but I didn't imply that vegan diets are the healthiest. I said the Mediterranean/Japanese-style diets are the best at the end of my post.
I implied that you can get all the amino acids you need to live from plant-based proteins, aka incomplete proteins. That's it.

What did you mean by this? Proteins are just chains of amino acids. Learn to express yourself properly before resorting to name-calling, fag.

Guess what, I'm a nutritional technician too :^)

Tell me where you see the word "meat" in the following quote.

Also I hate how every vegan thread descends into some bro science shit about nutrition and doesn't delve into the ethical and philosophical aspects of meat consumption.

It should be pretty obvious that neither a meat-based nor a plant-based diet is going to kill you or significantly reduce your lifetime. Humans are omnivores.

nutech faggot here
sorry if I worded it badly, english is not my first language, but basically what I mean to say is that in proportion to other foods on your diet, meat should take up ten to twenty percent.

Well if you had any reading comprehension and quotes the actual full sentence:
In proportion, the intake of meat, compared to vegetables, grains and legumes, should be 10-20%

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I only ever brought it up because vegans always make very fucking stupid claims based on nutrition. I don't even follow optimal nutrition, my diet is like 80% bread because it is cheap. As for the ethical/philosophical issues of veganism, for me those are fucking laughable. We would have to go full anprim if we want to stop industrial casualty induced on animals. Do you have any idea how much things are made out of animal parts or are impossible without them? The machine you shitpost on contains pig cartilage. Wood glue? pig blood. Then you have animal fats in absolutely everything, leather in places where it is a better alternative to synthetics, etc. Everything needs to be viewed scientifically, I laugh at you pissing yourself over muh broscience.

I dont give a shit about the animals though, not enough to stop eating meat at least. I just think a vegan diet is unhealthy, at the very least go vegetarian. Theres no ethnical reason not to eat eggs if you keep your own chickens.

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Ok, I admit I sperged badly here, sorry. 10%-20% of meat seems definitely fine to me.
I'm not a vegan but it is just that I'm annoyed at fags who shill meme diets on /ck/ based around a huge consumption of animal products and I thought you were one of them. I get that cutting on carbohydrates is good for obesity, but unless you have a specific disease, eschewing them entirely is pretty retarded.

Why yall so illiterate?
You can live on plant-based diet and get proteins with all amino acids you need. Just google amino acid profiles of beans, nuts and seeds. If you don't like them you can just add soy protein, or if you don't want to go full vegan you can eat regular protein, which is made out of milk.
And for their digestability:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_value#Typical_values
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score#Reference_pattern
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_protein_utilization
Also after looking at all the vegan shitthreads here I am starting to think that stuff like this has a point: wiki.ubc.ca/Social_Constructions_of_Masculinity_and_Meat_Consumption

Im not comrade nutrion technitian, but whatever.
And obviously cutting carbs completely is bad, he did not recommend that as a general diet.

I dont give a fuck about masculinity. I like the taste of meat and like eating it.

EVERY
TIME

Animals have no rights. We still shouldn't torture them unnecessarily, that's just sadistic, but if someone wants to eat meat they should be able to. Artificially grown meat will solve everything.

MUH IPHONES

Why? Obviously, you care about humans in some way, otherwise you wouldn't be a leftist.

I dunno. They aren't human. Obviously I dont want to inflict them any harm and there should definitely be some kind of protection for animals, depending on what kind of animal it is. Great apes, whales and elephants should get some kind of special protection (outside of areas that rely on traditional hunting for survival) as they are obviously intelligent, but they are still animals, and human safety and prosperity should not be jeopardised by them. In the end, my desire for meat goes above the animals suffering, although I do support research into lab grown meat and support farming methods that are less cruel. I'm not a sadist, but I am also not someone who thinks pigs or cows or chickens are on the same level as humans. Any animal that cannot control its own population, that cannot be instructed and understand societal rules for humans are a potential danger for humans. Smarter animals like elephants are better able to understand, or at least kinda "get" the boundaries that humans put on them, the relationship we have with each other, and respect them to a degree, as demonstrated by their ability to differentiate poachers from rangers, farmers, doctors and tourists, but they are still a potential danger.
And unless we find an animal as capable of communication and power assertion as humans, we will never be able to be equals, because there is an implicit power dynamic in favour of the humans, an implicit, unchangeable class relation, if you will. It is up to us to be the gardeners of this planet, to be the shepherd of her life. But a shepherd always looks out for himself first, then his sheep, even if it tries to care for its sheep and ensure their prosperity, and always for his own gain and not for theirs.
Just random bits of thought, really. We have the power, thats never going to change (unless we play god), so all animals are at our mercy. I will not needlessly hurt them, but I cannot put them on the same level as a human being.

So tl;dr: I am an anthropocentrist, but not a sadist. There is no virtue in hurting animals.

In the future, we should be able to create meat through cell duplication, thus the exploitatoin of animals will eventually become an issue on the level of "should we ban kiling a dog for the sake of eating his meat".

Would you agree that humans are a danger to humans based on this metric? There's around 8 billion humans now. I'd say we're doing a pretty poor job at managing our populations based on that alone. Understanding and abiding societal rules when they are harmful could also be quite dangerous to our health, but that's more of a secondary point.

theguardian.com/environment/2010/aug/16/nature-economic-security

I don't think most people will disagree that our self-interest drives us, not just as individuals, but as a species. This is fundamental to basically every form of life we've have observed as well, sometimes called the Maximum Power Principle (MPP). However, my fear is that this mindset of separation from our ecology, of assumed sense of superiority to other life forms and to nature to some degree blinds us to our connection and reliance to other forms of life and indeed to the natural world as a whole.

I suppose to put that a little differently - human activity, our wide spread, the way we use land and resources, the waste products from our industrialization and a million other factors have caused (and are accelerating) a global extinction event for virtually all forms of life on this planet. Thinking of ourselves as gardeners, shepherds, or stewards of this planet is, I think, somewhat disingenuous when faced with the reality of the effects that our presence has for life on earth. To be brutally honest I would say that it is more apt to compare humanity's influence on the biosphere as more akin to the effective spread of cancer than to compare ourselves to guardians of this thing that has given all things life.

I've sometimes heard this analogy, I think it was originally penned by Daniel Quinn but I'm unable to find it with a few quick searches - that humanity's continuous quest for growth at the expense of all other things is similar to someone in a brick building attempting to build the structure continuously upward by taking bricks from the foundation of their building. That it may work for a while, that you might build a few floors before anyone even notices a problem, but that eventually one will have hollowed out the base of their structure, and that everything will collapse in on itself. Humanity's expansion has always involved, to varying degrees, the destruction of all that lives around them. Recognizing this and managing/minimizing the damage we do is, I think, absolutely necessary to secure a future for humanity. Believing that we are disconnected from or superior to our environment is a fatal trait that I'm afraid will ultimately result in our extinction.

I guess to attempt to fully summarize - you don't need to see other animals as on the same level as human beings, and I don't know that it would be reasonable to ask you or anyone else to do so - however, you should recognize the web of life for what it is, and see that mankind's continued existence is ultimately dependent on having a diverse and hearty ecology to live within. Damage to nature is damage to all of us and a danger to the future of all life. Please think about it.

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Being vegan for morality is dumb, being vegan because animal agriculture contributes to climate change is woke

Morality may be a spook, but it is healthier to build a society that doesn't permit imoral actions.
Your argument is equivalent of saying: "Being against skinning dogs alive for morality is dumb".

Moralism is liberal as fuck though, the case for socialism is that socialism is life and liberalism is death, an immoral life is better than a moral death

"Moralism is liberal"
No. No fuck in way in hell. (Neo/Ultra)Liberalism is imoralist*.

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nearly all animals consumed by humans were created by humans. pigs, cows and chickens don't live outside our farms anymore

are you retarded? vegans only need to supplement b12 and get enough sun for vitamin d, that's all

top kek. i'm a vegan powerlifter and could almost certainly beat the shit out of you. say that to my face not online fucker and see what happens

It is in the self-interest of meat eaters to give a good quality of life to the animals they eat anyway. We learned this the hard way when farmers started feeding cows with 'meat and bone meal' instead of grass.

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No, they also need to seek specific grain to get the amino acids you find easily in meat.