DSA and the other orgs

Why does the PSL and ISO seem to cooperate with Democrat Cops of America so much?
Aren't they supposed to be pushing Democrat Cops of America to the left and encouraging them to defend Assad?
I am uncomfortable with Democrat Cops of America's dominant position in the left. We need an organization with a clearer party line.

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Other urls found in this thread:

medicareforall.dsausa.org/blog/austin-dsa-helps-win-paid-sick-day
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Murray_(trade_unionist)
youtube.com/watch?v=P6YYfwR41tM
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Why wouldn't they cooperate with Democrat Cops of America? Democrat Cops of America is the largest org and has good praxis for American social and political conditions, unlike the thousand larp sects.

ISO are Trots.
PSL are crypto-Trots.
What do you expect? There is literally no good socialist/communist party in the USA. The Canadian Communist Party is decent though.

Being large and progressive doesn't matter. They might as well be Democrats.
This is why Democrat Cops of America pushed for Obama in 2008, pushed for Sanders in 2016, and will end up pushing for Sanders or Kamala Harris in 2020.

What is the SEP.

OH NO NO NO

But PSL, ISO and anyone else that has good praxis will end up going to the same events and functions as Democrat Cops of America, why wouldn't you want to cooperate? Do you think being a trashfire of an org that causes needless fighting everywhere they go is good praxis?

What exactly do you think constitutes being a good socialist/communist party?

No one is defending splits, infighting, and purges. However, sometimes it is necessary to look inward and make sure everyone is in the same page.
DSA is an organization that believes that socialism can be spread by knocking on some doors and talk about liberal zoning laws or some Democratic candidate.
They refuse to do anything that actually empowers the working class.

There is no point in supporting Democrat Cops of America. They are just like Our Revolution or the Poor People's Campaign, but they happen to look like the color red.

Every US org is either total shit or too small to be even locally influential, and most are both.


Least bad trots

And what do you think empowers the working class?

This question mainly seems relevant to me if you're living in a big city like New York where there are several active socialist parties. Most Americans don't live in those places and expecting people to have a high level of political development in Fayetteville, Arkansas; Albuquerque, New Mexico; or Houston, Texas is unreasonable.

In my neck of the woods there is Democrat Cops of America and ISO, and that's it, muchachos. The ISO people are also all college students and I've heard they joined because that was the only socialist group on campus.

medicareforall.dsausa.org/blog/austin-dsa-helps-win-paid-sick-day

The Austin Democrat Cops of America apparently has around 800 members which is pretty good.. Active, committed members is going to be smaller though of course.

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Isn't that the branch that got Fetonte elected and tried to keep him from resigning? They single-handedly got that their org a wordfilter on Zig Forums, truly inspiring.

The story I heard from my contacts there is that the Austin chapter was one of the oldest and has been around since the 80s, and Fetonte and his goons were in control (they basically were the Austin chapter for years) when all these new, young and radical socialists came out of the woodwork.

Cue infighting and the eventual ousting of Fetonte who had run the chapter like a personal dictatorship. It actually took a lot of clever organizing among the young members to do it. Some of his allies are now a disgruntled minority faction who sit around with sour looks on their faces. It was a painful but necessary process in the chapter's political maturation, and it's stronger and more effective as a result.

Anyways if you have a better alternative, I'm all for it but they need to actually exist. I'm not knocking other parties, but the reason they don't exist in many places is because consciousness is lower. The conditions are not ready for it.

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Frankly I have to be skeptical of this, the fact that they got him that national Democrat Cops of America position only a few months ago is pretty damning. Maybe they've turned things around since then, I don't know, but it says a lot about the caliber of the Democrat Cops of America.
If the Democrat Cops of America is shit you shouldn't support it just because it's the least bad option. The Democrat Cops of America actively works to divert radical potential into left-liberal causes.

Fetonte controlled the rules, the agenda, the social media accounts and held meetings at his private house where members would have to hand in their phones to get let in the door. It was hilariously awful and the members got organized and pressured him into resigning. I know because my contact was involved in doing it. Look up "North Star" – that's where some of his allies went.

IMO the big problems have been in the established chapters like that which have been around since the 80s.


Maybe so but reading the history of revolutionary parties, none of them have been perfect and none of the successful ones started out as the pure, crystallized essence of what a revolutionary party should be. Someone asked earlier:

You give trots way too much credit tank friend. Go to socialist worker, the ISO newspaper, and read about how they’ve openly supported the FSA jihadists and called for Assad to be deposed. The trots are no friends of anti-imperialism.

you need normies for the revolution friendo

"Normies" aren't the problem, these people are much more insidious than that, they actively divert what little revolutionary potential there is in the US.

TBH the Democrat Cops of America isn't really of a complete unified opinion. Sure you have people at the top who really aren't that good, but inside the group you have different subdivisions/caucuses of different opinions. Even then, it also divides by chapters too. I know one of the founding members of the Pittsburgh chapters is a democratic confederalist. The DC and Baltimore chapters are also full of luxumburgists. That being said while this is happening you do have big parts like the NYC chapters that are liberal shit heaps tho

D*SA (get rid of the childish word filter BO) is a broad tent group with p much every leftist strand under the sun with in it. The older people in the org particularly the leadership the tend to be red democrat types but the younger people are far more radical and prone to far left tendencies. Remember that prior to Trump the D*SA was a org based entirely around reforming the Democrats now even that is hotly constested by the rank and file.

...

Wow you mean it's an org that takes actual communists (or potential communists) and puts them into a group with literal Democrats, negating the former's revolutionary potential exactly like I said? REALLY makes you think

*judges you from afar*
Also fun fact, the DSА has 37k members, the SPA had 113k at its height…

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When has entryism worked?

Pic related.

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Luxumburgists sounds like a lot of the ones I've met here in TX even if they don't call themselves that. Just the general outlook.

I don't think it's possible to understand the Dizzay without putting it in the context of Occupy's failures.


lmao nice

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But for a serious response this pretty much proves my point, Corbyn is just another socdem who's convinced brainlet "communists" that after he becomes prime minister he'll instate fully automated luxury communism instead of maybe expanding the welfare state some.

Enjoy your LARPing.

What im saying is the D*SA rank and file is radicalizing duder. Expecting an org to magically turn into the 1917 Bolsheviks if its just pure enough is some fucked up idealism.

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This is not what I'm saying at all.

Is that why diehard Marxist Leninists are joining his inner team?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Murray_(trade_unionist)

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Based

That's nice but that doesn't make Corbyn some sort of slick entryist.


I don't know why you think all Democrat Cops of America critics must belong to the PSL or whatever. If you must know I'm not in any party or org and I think all the US parties are suspect at best.

lmao BO needs to send you back to Zig Forums again.

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that's p fuckingneato kid. I didn't mention the PSL at all.


lmao there it is. get out of your basement and join an org then do some sectarian shitflinging

I hate to be the guy who complains on the sideline and says "It's not good enough" but even the APL is basically a revisionist party like a redder version of Worker's World or something. They quoted Togliatti in one of their recent articles on anti-fascism–Enver would have strangled them if he was alive for that. Maybe it was Ismail's bad experience with that group that caused him to go super-revisionist idk

What the heck is the APL?

America's only active Hoxhaist party. Founded by the BO of /marx/

I can't believe I have to post this twice in one day

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Huh whaddya know. I'll have to check out their reading section.

Have fun getting arrested.

"Great moments in leftism" is the world's most obnoxious comic.
Not to say that yank orgs are good, but seriously GOD DAMN

I generally agree but that specific comic is extremely pertinent

lol at a tank using a leftcom comic intended to fling shit at tanks.

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Nice, you posted that image in response to me here too, good to know you're as much of a brainlet on domestic politics as foreign policy.

Man I miss when the SWP wasn't split into like a bajillion organizations

nice to see calling you a retarded liberal on domestic politics also pisses you off.

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Anyway, I think I've made all my points about the Democrat Cops of America, so I think I'll bow out here. Feel free to keep kissing socdem taint.

You're getting your history wrong.
DSA stopped being a Democrat-proxy organization after 2011. Occupy Wall Street deeply changed the organization. They didn't endorse Obama for 2012.

In the years since Occupy, they formed a Left Caucus which was clearly revolutionary and anti-Democratic Party.

I am not denying that the org radically grew and changed since 2016. But it's not historically accurate to pretend that in the immediate years before the recent growth, that they were just Democrat.s

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….uh huh.

Anyway, they cooperate because the d.s.a is the largest socialist org in the united states, and socialism is a mass movement.

I think you need to read more theory. socialism is actually about whining about other socialists on the internet.

From Derick Varn's podcast, here's a good rundown of the current factions within Democrat Cops of America. Complete interview is an hour and a half long but is also worth a listen.

youtube.com/watch?v=P6YYfwR41tM

TLDW - Contrary to what is commonly assumed, succdems do not represent the org's dominant ideology. The majority of members are to the left of that position, but not affiliated with any particular faction.
I have mixed feelings about Democrat Cops of America, obviously first and foremost they need to purge what succdems remain and cut off any association with Democrats. Based on the interview above, that seems like a real possibility within the next few years. At some point there'll be a reckoning between all the different entryist groups, but hopefully the org as a whole will be able to continue to build momentum up until that happens and will be able to survive the fallout.

Many people would rather Democrat Cops of America just become another marginal irrelevant leftist org, obsessed with taking the correct positions on events that happened over a century ago.

Ameriburgers cannot imagine a left that actually has mass appeal.

That's the mainstream Democrat Cops of America ideology atm.
Of course Trots and Anarchists are fighting for influence.
I don't know how to classify the Jacobin Magazine influence. Are they Succdems? I know that they defend Kautsky. The Jacobin crowd seems to be influential in East Bay and Brooklyn. Not sure about nationwide.

But most Democrat Cops of Americaers seem to be Luxumburgists with American characteristics. (meaning, concession to Feminists, Queers, Disabled, and BLM)

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How do you start a socialist movement in a country that hosts the largest war machine in human history?
My biggest criticism of the D*S*A is their silence on the empire. I get its easier to talk about healthcare and charity events but there can't be any meaningful reform unless the military government is dismantled.

Isn't there an Anti-War Working Group?

I'd wager that many of us (myself included) would not be here if not for this man.


Fuck off, LeftCom.


Rethuglican might have a valid point here. I don't follow the organization too-too closely, so I can't say.

On that note, I remember we had a thread a while back about a former US soldier running as a socialist for state representative. I saved the .webm of his speech, and we had a serious discussion on radicalizing the US army and platforming more disenfranchised soldiers.

Unfortunately however, the BO forgot to take her meds that day, which led to well over half-a-dozen people getting month-long bans. I still can't say I've entirely forgiven her for that.

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DSA will probably end up endorsing Bernie Sanders in 2020.
That will be a stupid mistake. They should be focusing on housing and medicare for all campaigns.
Sanders hates sex workers, is an imperialist, and a zionist.

"Sex work" wouldn't exist under socialism. It's an inane liberal concept on par with calling third world countries "developing." Stop trying to reframe human trafficking in entrepreneurial terms.

Come now, we both know the Dems are too stupid and greedy to platform him. OTOH, I could totes see them openly criticizing both candidates offered on the final ballot.

Lucky for us, even if the Democrats got their shit together and landed some """progressive""" candidate in the White House, the Democrat Cops of America could easily discredit them in debates by quoting African-American socialists and citing statistics.

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fuck off terf

DSA was the main reason why Bernie Sanders ran for president. They were pushing him to run since 2014. They wanted him to run as an independent but they supported him when he ran as a Democrat.
They will continue to endorse him in 2020 probably. But Bernie Sanders is not how you build a socialist party in the United States. Socialism does not come from the top down.

no. of times gender was mentioned in my post: 0

The largest barrier to reform are the two parties that write blank checks to fund the war machine. They'd have to be stripped of their power before any meaningful reform is possible.
Organizing a general strike in the military would be rad, but there's little chance of things getting because the military/industrial/intelligence complex is not obligated to respond to democratic pressure. We all know what they do to foreign governments they don't like, imagine what they'll do to one at home.

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You use that word. I do not believe you know what it means.

Counterpoint: There is nothing wrong with influential politicians advancing our cause, especially if they convince great swathes of disenfranchised Americans to look into leftism. Actually, the only way this past election could've been better was if Bernie snagged the nomination, stuck to his guns, and lost by a hair's breadth due to publicly-acknowledged gerrymandering and corruption.

That said, I do think we're direly in need of some grassroots organization. Especially in my industry (software development), the average worker is classcucked to high hell. I get downvoted to oblivion every time I talk about unions on Reddit; and whenever I've tried IRL to explain how us engineers are just the middle class in the dictatorship we call the workplace, they look at me like I called their best friend a nigger. It's infuriating.

We don't need to imagine. Pic related.

The fucking four is right in that the revolution can't come from above, but since the fifties (2nd Red Scare, Cold War and all that jazz.) there's been no chance of it coming from below either. It falls upon us to fix that, via agitating, unionizing, and normalizing the word "socialism" in American politics.

In some respects, I'd like to imagine this is already taking place. Following the teachers' strikes, fast food workers finally got their own union a couple days back, and I've noticed people in general are quite receptive to tenets of socialism when it's clothed in alternative terminology. We just need to ease them in.

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don't call it 'Hoxhaism' just call it 'Anti-Revisionism"

Uphold Marxism-Leninism-Bunkerism!

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Teh Ebin Radigal Femenisdt?

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The SPA was led by actual Marxists. Not upper middle class Democrats obsessed with Identity Politics who just happen to like the color red.

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American Party of Labor seems pretty based

I really don't see it. Maybe it's like that in Brooklyn but one of the leaders in a nearby chapter to me is a Marxist truck driver. I've also never been to New York City in my life.

The most flack I actually see directed at the org from the left is that it's too white. I don't really know what to do about criticism like that.

There's some idpollery but frankly that seems way worse in hardline ☭TANKIE☭ groups and among Trots.

Was reading about a Refoundation (kinda Trotskyist?) group in a Democrat Cops of America chapter recently where they lost a power struggle over whether the chapter should switch to online voting. The Refoundation group was for it (to support disabled people who can't make it to meetings). Then when they lost, they set up a parallel structure and now oppose online voting (because online voting harms disabled people… or something). Yeah.

On the flip side you have entryists coming from the right who want the org to be an arm of Democrats. The org should fight both these tendencies: the Trots and the liberals who will both use idpol as a way of manipulating the membership for petty power-struggle reasons.


Yeah, it's probably a good idea not to endorse him. It's not like Bernie would necessarily want the endorsement.

lol

I am disturbed by this trend in Democrat Cops of America. They are praising Lenin too much.
DSA should be focusing on the weak state of Labor and to look for alternatives, such as industrial unionism.

feels good

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Togliatti was a good ML, why would Hoxha dislike that?

the PSL is a weird party
seems to attract a lot of hardcore ☭TANKIE☭ rank and file members but its leadership honestly doesn't seem that different to the Communist Party USA

noice

Togliatti's lectures on fascism were made in the 1930's when he was an obedient Stalin sycophant.

If Democrat Cops of America were a political party in the traditional sense I would agree with you, but their "big tent" format obviously lends itself to actual anti-capitalists who want to organize under a well known banner and get potential access to support from such a big org. Categorically denying the usefulness of such an organization is just being a thick headed LARPer. It goes without saying that socialist activity in the first world will need to adapt itself to a situation where most people believe in liberal democracy, and the standards of living (even among the poor) are generally tolerable. If you want to have success in the first world you need to present socialism as a common sense solution to problems and as the logical progression of a rational society based on the values that currently dominate the west, particularly democracy, freedom, and progress. Talking in grandiose language about the overthrow of all existing social conditions etc will doom you to LARPing.

Democracy, freedom, and progress don't exist in the west. Socialists need to convince people these ideas are a self serving lies told by the bourgeoisie that have no relation to the real world. The D S A in particular needs to radicalize their newly expanded membership, or else they'll end up with ideas about restoring the values of the Constitution or other liberal crap.

Not to defend imperialist socdem parties but from what I have seen the Democrat Cops of America old guard is the problem, not the new people.

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broofs
aren't they the kind of people who think bernie is more of a socialist than Lenin

the eternal cuck dem

This is just a meme that random small sects about a Democrat Cops of America from 2008.
DSA is no longer a small succdem org. They are a legitimate socialist big tent, multi-tendency organization.
We should keep on pushing them collectively to the left, and give them some shit for their history. But unironically pretending that they aren't the largest socialist movement in the United States does more harm to our cause.

I don't know if Democrat Cops of America will even be relevant ten years from now. But they should at least be treated in good faith. With all their flaws of being too invested in identity and electoral politics in mind.

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The problem with Democrat Cops of America is that they focus too much on race. They are self-hating gentrifiers. It's such an annoying dynamic to watch play out.

They need to focus on class issues and not fall for SJW liberal college ideology.

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Can you give some specific examples.

Not disagreeing with you, but I think this crit should be concrete.

All I see are faggot flags, what do they want fags to get taxed less too by way of marriage so the disporpotionate amout of petit-bourgeois among faggots can keep more of their profits. Gays should be able to be as gay as they want but holy fuck that is not some pressing fundamental issue of socialists. If it is then you are just regular Democrats who just like a specific kind of optics with no substance.

so burgerland will finally get a cuckdem party like the rest of the world
okay, america is generally behind the world in everything

So apparently Fetonte is now trying to take over the Austin branch of Our Revolution as a way of purging D S A members in an act of revenge.


What the crap are you talking about. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And gay marriage is a dead issue in the States. It's over. No one cares about it because it is settled. Are you even an American? I doubt it from someone who seems to know so little about it, or any idea how to accomplish useful things. Socialism is popular and might actually accomplish something if it's packaged appropriately and not as a sour-faced Eastern European import that is alien to most Americans.

Who gives a fuck? In practice they are Marxist Leninists who defend every socialist state that ever existed. Not to mention they are the most unapologetic anti-imperialist group on the American left.

They are also cooperating with Democrat Cops of America. Losing any leftist credibility.

Nice ideological purity test, cypto-armchair