What's y'alls thoughts on Socialist Alternative? Specifically for the USA...

Hey Zig Forums whatcha doin'?

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Kill yourself. Actually, go ahead and join SA. They deserve wreckers like you, and you deserve the misery of association to Trots.

You know ☭TANKIE☭s hate the Khmer Rouge, right?

Do you guys, like, ever say something intelligent?

Revisionist sympathizers calling themselves 'tankie' for edgepoints hate the Khmer Rouge, sure.

I take it you're a Jason Unruhe fan?

Hello.

SA is essentially the American branch of the Committee for a Workers' International (CWI). They ARE Trots, but not really in the same vein as many other Trot groups that typically use the term to describe general anti-Stalinism than adherence to the theory and praxis of Lenin, Trotsky and the Bolsheviks.

They call the DPRK a deformed workers' state, similar to the USSR, or a "bureaucratic dictatorship", effectively the same thing, they claim Stalin was essentially the inevitable result of the bureaucratization and isolation of the USSR, they claim that Assad is a nationalist dictator and a capitalist and that Venezuela is a mild reformist, socdem state and that Chavez and the PSUV failed to bring about genuine socialist revolution, even when they had the chance, in the futile attempt at courting the national bourgeoisie whose loyalty couldn't be bought by these overtures and they're paying the price for it now because the Venezuelan bourgeois class and their American backers have smelled blood in the water.

It's worth pointing out that the CWI is opposed to all imperialist war, and that criticizing a particular state does not constitute an endorsement for the United States or other Western imperialist powers to invade it. A nice thing about the CWI is that they haven't fallen for this Marcyite disease of pretending that every nation that comes into conflict with the United States is now communist and deserves our support for some reason (that's probably combined with the general ☭TANKIE☭ disease of believing that our still-largely-fringe lefty groups are somehow major power brokers in the geopolitical scene and that geopolitical outcomes depend on how complete and unflinching rhetoric put forth by tiny leftist cadres with no political power was)

They still have the chance for a socialist revolution, if they'd call to arms, a majority of the Venezuelan working class would probably follow. The problem is not that they are "courting the bourgeoisie" (they really don't, Maduro has seized tons of firms last year, including fucking Hilton and Kelloggs), the problem is that there would be a regime change/outright invason if they try to do that. Then you also have the problem of the huge crime rate in Venezuela, the black market, and corruption amongst the lower PSUV cadres. The problem is not that Maduro and co. aren't striving for socialism (new constitional assembly establishes worker's councils and direct democracy), the problem that they need to be extremly careful where to treat.

Trot analysis as always, bullshit.

That wasn't a criticism of Maduro, but of Chavez. He had a chance to lead a genuine socialist revolution in Venezuela and chose to try to win the loyalties of the national bourgeoisie instead, leading the the bugbear Maduro is having to cope with. Read.
socialistworld.net/index.php/theory-analysis/9413-venezuela-the-capitalist-offensive-has-socialism-failed-2

lmao are you trying to defend SA with this list of dogshit?

Dear comrades: In the past, in my opinion and that of a good number of comrades, Trotskyism has seemed a matter of struggle between the trends within the Chinese Communist Party. So they almost were not paying attention. But shortly before the outbreak of the war, more precisely since the end of 1936, and especially during the war, the criminal Trotskyist propaganda has opened our eyes. Then we started to study the problem. And our study has led us to the following conclusions:

1 – The problem of Trotskyism is not a struggle between the trends within the Chinese Communist Party. Because between Communists and Trotskyists there is no tie, absolutely no tie. It is a matter that concerns the whole people: the fight against the country.

2 – The fascist Japanese and foreign fascists know. So, looking to try to create disagreements, to mislead public opinion and undermine the popularity of the Communists, making people believe they are communists and Trotskyists in the same field.

3 – The Chinese Trotskyists (like the Trotskyists in other countries) do not represent a group, much less a political party. They are nothing more then a criminal gang, the hounds of Japanese fascism (and of international fascism).

4 – In all countries, the Trotskyists gave good nicknames to mask their dirty work of bandits. For example, in Spain, their names are Workers’ Party of Marxist Unification (POUM). Did you know that it is they who are the nests of spies in Madrid, Barcelona and elsewhere in the service of Franco? It is they who organized the famous “fifth column,” agency of the army intelligence of the fascist Italians and Germans. In Japan, they are called Marx-Engels-Lenin League (MEL). The Japanese Trotskyists attract young people to their league, then reported them to the police. They seek to penetrate the Japanese Communist Party in order to destroy it from within. In my opinion, the French Trotskyists, now organized around the Proletarian Revolution Group (1) set a goal to sabotage the Popular Front. On this subject, I think you are better informed than I am. In our country of China [referring to Indochina, N. E.], Trotskyists are grouped into formations like La Lutte, War against the Japanese, Culture and Red Flag.

5 – The Trotskyists are not only enemies of communism, but also enemies of democracy and progress. They are the most infamous traitors and spies. Maybe you have read the indictments of the processes in the Soviet Union against the Trotskyists. If you have not read them, I advise you to do so and to read them to your friends. It is a very useful reading. It will help them see the true disgusting face of Trotskyism and Trotskyists. Here, allow me to extract some passages relating directly to China. The true repugnant face of Trotskyism.

Before the court, the Trotskyist Rakovsky (2) confessed that in 1934 when he was in Tokyo (as representative of the Soviet Red Cross) a high character of the Japanese government had told him: “We have the right to expect from the Trotskyists a change in strategy. I will not go into details. I only wanted to say that we expect from the Trotskyists, actions that favor our intervention in the affairs of China.” Responding to the Japanese, Rakovsky said: “I will write to Trotsky about this.” In December 1935, Trotsky sent to his supporters in China, instructions that repeatedly emphasized that phrase: “Do not create obstacles to the Japanese invasion of China.” And how have Trotskyists in China acted? They are in a hurry to know, is it not true? But, beloved comrades, I can not respond more in my next letter. Do not you recommend me to write short letters? Hope to see you soon.
-t. Ho Chi Minh

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...

What the fuck are you talking about, Trot? Typical Trot mendacity. Marcy was a Trot just like you.

Not after he formed the WWP. Though, Western ☭TANKIE☭s buying wholesale into a former Trot's retarded "global class war" theory isn't lost on me.

Shut up lying Trot.

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You can tell that there's no successful Marxist-Leninist organizations in America based off the fact that every time a semi-successful Trot organization gets mentioned online, dozens of assblasted Stalinists come out of the woodwork to jerk off to the idea of gulaging people they don't like.

The CWI has a tendency in the PSUV and still believes the Bolivarian revolution can establish dual power in Venezuela. They basically agree with you.

Welp. I guess it's multi-tendency democratic socialism for me!

It's odd that all the tank parties like the PSL and WWP are seen as crypto trotskyist. Could anyone explain this to me.

They originated from the (Trotskyist) Socialist Workers Party. WWP split because they supported the USSR's crackdown in Hungary unlike the SWP. They still called themselves Trot for a while but adopted ML positions such as regarding all the ML states as true socialism.

With the death of Sam Marcy, they dropped any pretense of adherence to Trotskyism and labeled themselves Marxist Leninists.

The necessary and sufficient qualities of a good socialist are:

1) non-interventional, because they need allues that are non-interventional. Porky likes to intervene in socialist countries so you need unconventional bedfellows.

2) They should also at least be obviously socialist obviously.

Everything else is party name terminology and of little heuristic value aside from philosophical.

SALT (at least in Aus) remains entirely shit. I'm surprised they call other orgs reformist when they constantly go to my UNI and ask folks to sign petitions. On top of that they have the arrogance to hijack protests, lash out at other socialist orgs, and pretty much treat any doctrine from Trotsky as holy scripture.

At least with other orgs such as solidarity (who are mostly trots themselves), they are at least critical of Trotsky, allow most socialists from all walks of life to join, and at least are open to other forms of praxis. But SALT is stagnant, and conniving.

Australian SAlt is affiliated with the American ISO, which is somehow even worse than the American SAlt

I take it the American ISO is shit.
also are you the Aussie tank user?

Yes, ISO embodies every shit-tier stereotype about Trots. Their foreign policy analysis aligns with neocons, they primarily recruit on college campuses, and they're extremely opportunistic. Worst of all, they're probably the largest "communist" org in America (I'm not counting the Democrat Cops of America), which means they have the largest platform to spew their bile.
And no, I'm an American.

I've yet to see SALT in Aus do this.
Yeah sounds like SALT
Yup, they hijack protests and chants like cunts
I remember there being a marxist conference in Lelbourne, hosted by SALT. I didn't go, but by the looks of it, it was drenched in liberal IdPOL.
fuck

Not only this, but they actually criticize other groups for trying to recruit non-student groups.

It's quite possibly the worst praxis I've ever seen.

It'd be interesting to compare SALT to ISO in terms of membership. My understanding is that ISO is in decline and has been for some time.

The ones in my area are cool and joined simply because it was the available Marxist group on their campus, but my guess is that the organization's head is rotten.

If Facebook likes are any indication, SAlt is probably slightly more popular than ISO.

I imagine Trump is responsible for that; SAlt capitalized on Trump's victory very effectively while ISO seemed mostly blindsided.

this image deserves the GULAG

thanks uncle ho

No wonder they're cancer

Correction: I just looked it up and apparently the Australian SAlt was founded by expelled members of the IST, which also expelled the American ISO (classic Trots). Politically they all seem to hold similar lines though.

I know SAlt was the big meme group to join circa 2015, around when Kshama Sawant was elected to the Seattle city council. It kind of seems like the Democrat Cops of America poached their main demographic (extremely online millenials) after the presidential election, but it's possible my perspective on this is skewed because I mainly avoid leftbook.

They are a bunch of retards, but so is every leftist.

no, they're accurate accusations

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They're trots so its a no for me.

Join the PSL

Why not join an actual ML group like PCUSA or APL instead?

Because the Marcyites aren't sectarian cults with zero members

SPLITTERS!!!

neither's Democrat Cops of America, maybe that's the place for you, crypto-Trot.

Is that the only criticism of the PSL you can come up with?

PSL are genuine Marxist Leninists. You're acting like a Trot yourself if you want to abandon the most popular and fastest growing ML party in the US for such a petty reason.

Literally who

They spread a cancerous ideology that makes us look bad. We could do without a very vocal chunk of the left sucking off every tinpot dictator that badmouthed the US.

Which "tinpot dictator" does the PSL support?

I was talking about Marcyism in general, but the biggest example of today would probably be Assad. Not merely pointing out that the US has ill intentions for the region and is helping fund and arm the Salafists, who are far worse than Assad, but actual praise for the nationalist, capitalist dictator.

join Democrat Cops of America Refoundation. Everything else is LARPing and a waste of time.

shouldn't have called him a dictator.

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an organization being small isn't an argument, or at least not a very good one if you care about policy.
Entryism is a fuck

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I've legitimately never heard of the PCUSA and I've only heard of the APL through Zig Forums but know nothing about them (except that they're Hoxhaists)

Policy is great and is obviously a great priority if not the greatest priority of any party, but the greatest policy is not of much use if you only have ten members and nobody to hear what you have to say. Like it or not, an organization's small size is absolutely a relevant critique worth looking into.