Do you consider voting for a lesser of two evils bad? I don't mean donating money to, publically endorsing, campaigning for, or spending any more energy or resources than simply voting.
Also, how do you make the distinction between a "lesser evil" and a flawed, imperfect candidate that's still worth voting for?
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Why would you enable and legitimize bourgeoisie rulers? Unless an actual workers' party is participating in the elections, there is no point in legitimizing them.
In this board, you really can't tell between legitimate curious people who don't know better and are honestly asking these things and b8ers. It is however a good topic of discussion for a marxist in general, as many hold the unmarxist view that marxists should abstain from elections all-together. There must be a clear distinction between a marxist party participating in the bourgeoisie elections and seizing as much power within the current system as possible (for example KKE), and voting for neoliberals
Sure but OP is obviously about to start shilling for "lesser evilism" which literally always means voting for neoliberals
Clinton isn't the "lesser evil " she is the "Equal to if not more evil"
I don't think anyone would take that shitposting seriously. Might as well ask "should i join the nazi party to vote x for fuhrer? he is the lesser evil"
the first is hillary that wil do nothing; the second is someone like sanders that is willing to introduce real healthcare
maybe 3rd worldists are right about america
If you voted someone for Sanders, you would essentially be legitimatizing his imperialist and pro-Israel policies. Saying that introducing healthcare makes this alright is literally you accepting a bribe-like concession by the ruling class in order to legitimatize imperialist policies of mass murder against proles in other countries.
for someone like*
It's not bait. I don't have a very strong opinion on this topic one way or the other, so I won't lecture you about anything.
This has annoyed me too lately. People seem to think that the job of the communist is the sit on the side and wait for the revolution to fall down from the sky.
Yeah I shouldn't have posted a picture of Clinton (it just came naturally since she's usually the one brought up in discussions on this topic). This thread is not about the 2016 election specifically, but about lesser-evilism generally.
But the term you use doesn't allude to "let's discuss if marxist parties should participate in bourgeoisie elections", but to "should we vote for neoliberals?". The answer there is obviously no, it's not something that needs to be discussed
Yes, I'm sorry for the stupidity. It is much better voting for extreme right wing crypto fascists.
Alright if there's an election between a neoliberal candidate and a social democratic candidate, you would vote for the social democrat?
I'm not saying that enough communists actually do this, but its actually to build support for a vanguard party and organizations outside of mainstream political parties so that in times of crises the have a better chance of seizing power. Participating in elections can help the party get noticed and perhaps even get a few of them in congress to ward off the worst of the worst, but it's not fundamental to building socialism, and putting effort into endorsing one of the major parties always hurts the commie parties ability to build power for itself
So no its not about "waiting" for shit its just that commies naturally are opposed to voting at all because there's other things they should be focusing their energy on, but in the USA and other first world countries they unfortunately don't really do that anymore, which gives the impression that the Left in general is a big "do nothing" club
Anyway, hope that helps Op, still saging and reporting because we've had this thread 5 million times and you're still lecturing people who don't vote and are criticial of it as if its somehow their fault when Trump happens which is still liberal as shit so fuck off
The only revolution happening right now is Trumps. We are getting hit with forum slides like nothing I've seen before. Everyone is busy doing research and building arguments. We could use help on Twitter Reddit and Facebook.
see
socdems don't differ from neoliberals in the slightest. like i said above, concessions to the working class of one nation don't justify compliance with imperialism and exploitation
They do though. You could say they're both bad, or they're two sides of the same coin or something, but there is obviously a difference.
Socdems tend to be less in favour of wars and agression against other countries than neocons. If voting for Sanders against Trump made a war against Iran less likely, wouldn't it be worth it?
So you do not think there is a difference between Sanders and someone like John Bolton, that would make the former preferable to the latter?
on foreign policy*
There's no differerence if they both invade Iran at the end.
Bernie Sanders killed Rosa Luxembourg and would do it again in the same circumstances.
Voting anything but a Marxist party (that's only using the parliament as a means of propaganda) is legitimization of imperialism.
Just look at Syriza, it sure had people in it that were anti-EU, anti-NATO and against neoliberal measures. Once it got elected, the left wing of the party was purged along with their leaders (who made insignificant leftist parties themselves) and Yannis Varoufakis (Minister of Economics, a moderate left leaning liberal who was against austerity measures) was replaced by a EU loyalist.
...
If you mean in the alternate reality where Lenin was a menshevik then yes.
Varoufakis is reformist af
We were getting imperialist and pro israel policy regardless. Why not also get a shot at universal healthcare and wall street reforms.
There is no substantial difference. They are both representatives of the interests of the ruling class, they simply manipulate the proles in different ways. If you support either, you support the legitimization bourgeois elections offer to the ruling parties
I see you're an uneducated twat. The socdems were denounced by the left to begin with for supporting WW1. Every socdem government after WW2 has been a member of NATO. Sanders is an avid supporter of Israel and would employ the exact same foreign policy Trump does, because the US economy depends on imperialist wars.
Because you are legitimizing the imperialist and pro Israel policies with your votes. Your mindset is that of a passive petty-bourg who is so desensitized to living in nazi germany 2.0, that mass murder by his country's military doesn't even bother him and he's willing to go along with it if he gets better insurance. As a communist, you should be organizing the workers and opposing imperialism yourself.
wtf does that mean? Most registered voters already didn't vote in the last election, and it didn't change SHIT about how "legitimized" the system works
FPBP
Right now, an incredible amount of people have developed an interest and trust in socialism. They like the noninterventionist egalitarian nature of it. People I know in real life express interest in it. I see socialist memes regularly on social media. They believe you'll help deliver them from Mitch McConnell and Trump. However, this trust can quickly be broken. The majority of people will hate socialists for abandoning them to right wing capitalist authoritarianism for the sake of idealism. How can socialists be seen as anything other than a cat's paw for fascism when they sabotage any effort of relief from the clown dictator? I don't necessarily suggest voting for Hillary Clinton, but creating propaganda to demoralize and divide progressive efforts towards fixing democracy, foreign policy and creeping domestic fascism can only be seen as intentional sabotage. The vast majority of people will see through it, and consider you uncompromising idealists and agents of Trump. I mean it is incredibly bad dialectics to be seen as dividing opposition against Trump when people are this scared and angry with him. People will become bloodthirsty. People will compromise amongst liberals and neoconservatives out of self interest. A true fascist movement to restore national dignity, smash right wing deviances, smash left wing deviances and smash foreign enemies will be born. It is quite literally dangerous to the world. I cannot suggest avoiding efforts to subvert Democratic Socialist candidates with lesser evilism propaganda enough. However, I fully expect many will break the trust people have placed in socialism and we'll witness first hand why it's an incredibly bad idea.
America, her enemies and the world are all doomed
a flawed candidate is fine if he is actually a clear force of progress. Burgers are fucked on that front, the choices are equally shit, and voting for one of the two big party is fucking retarded