/China/

Here are some facts:

xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/06/c_137020127.htm

Did you guys know Jason and Rebecca Sugar went to school together? I bet they dated

We should bother Rebecca Sugar until she makes Jason an official character in Steven Universe

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Big if true, but take it to /leftytrash/

All I said is that China is not/is moving away from sweatshops and can't be accurately called an oligarchy.

But as for the completely random article you posted:
1. SOEs are in established industries. Most new growth is in private companies because SOEs don't move into those sectors quickly. China is planning to take over major new tech companies (google it), making them SOEs.
2. Private companies are also controlled by the CPC. All private companies above a certain size are required to make provisions for a CPC cell that controls major decisions and is run by the workers (google it).

Then he's a worthless fucking retard. Literally worse than a ⛏️rotskyite.

MLM is frequently just a form of leftcom or ⛏️rotskyism

看的我都要吐

一小撮邓主义走狗，上窜下跳，玩资产阶级政客那一套，给买办阶级当走狗打手，当肉喇叭

天天坐家里胡思乱想，连走近生产车间，团结工人都做不到

在工农中间，马列毛的地位，根本不是你们这帮邓主义走狗，天天在网上胡说八道几句就能抹杀的！

傻逼一帮！

连中国现在的政权性质都不知道，走资派当权，给全球资本主义当买办，无产阶级专政成了资产阶级专政，这点最基本的认识都没有，天天引经据典，胡说八道些什么？

傻逼美国佬，就是为了自己小圈子，机会主义政客的小九九，什么胡话都说！中国工人的状况你调查过吗？你在乎吗？因为资本主义爆炸式发展，中国社会有许多重大社会矛盾你在乎吗？你不在乎，因为你是一个机会主义政客！

Nice google translate bro.

seems legit to me.

At least the Dengist cult on this board can't even read a single Chinese word, is pretty laughable.

What is legit about posting in Chinese in response to English posts? How does that make sense?

Canadian here, have some Chinese friends around my neighborhood, so knows a little.

google translate works like shit if you run Chinese characters with it. If you don't trust me, just test yourself. The language structure he used is likely to be a native speaker,can't really tell, I could be wrong.

But yeah if you can't even read Chinese, and self-claim some China expert, that's BS.

Can you read it? If you can't, where does your Dengism knowledge coming from? English Wikipedia?

I Google Translate his text, it doesn't look like it's a translated text, unless he used some other advanced tools that I don't have access to.

Oh, he is calling off you Dengists as "sell out and opportunists", and "stupid", can't understand other parts, at least I agree with this part.

Have you used it recently? It's getting really good.

This would actually be a sign it was translated.

Not really into this stupid internet beef, but just curious, does your Dengist has ANY type of support and connection to the working people? I just see some internet shitposters, not one word even mentioning the working class condition ANYWHERE.

Don't try to distract. Do you understand it? If not, where does your knowledge of Dengism coming from?

I want to be fair with that poor guy. You don't really have to read Lenin in Russian, read Mao in Chinese. But holy shit, a self-claimed Internet Dengism "expert" bullying around lefty forums getting called out by unnamed native Chinese speaker, this shit is juicy. I love watching the might fall.

Woooo denial, woooo distract, woooo watch the mighty fall

You need to actually prove they do this with the intention to establish socialism and not just to retain state control over the economy. The CPC does not explain what they mean by "Marxism-Leninism", "Deng Xiaoping theory" and "Xi Jingping thought" are on the same level as Marx, Lenin and Engels, Mao is seen as a national liberator and not as a communist. If you really want to a laugh check out the absolute state of Marxism in the CPC:

Norway is real existing socialism right now

Now comes the best part:

>Besides current labor and past labor [the latter the Marxist term for the labor required to produce the means of production], there is a third type of labor, namely “risk labor.” Marxist theory should take account of this third type of labor, which is expended by those who take risks through entrepreneurship.
muh risk muh entrepreneurs

monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/

Cubs laid off government workers because it's not profitable, they plan on merging foreign money with money brought in by investors and tourists effectively giving up the state monopoly on monetary policy, value-indicators dominate the Cuban economy, there is unemployment, Cuba recently recognized private property.

Cuba was never really socialist in the first place. It was a national liberaton supported by the Cuban petite bourgeoisie that aligned with the USSR geopolitically. Castro has even stated himself later on he's not a communist.

lmao, nice idpol. apparently you now conclusively know that it wasn't google translate, and therefore dengists btfo.
not even a dengist.

I'm not sure this is legit. The slang and idioms are correct however some wording seems like it was translated straight form english like 这点最基本的认识都没有. However modern chinese does borrow english expressions and use their direct translations so who knows.

Jesus Christ… why aren't we banning dengists yet? They're literally misrepresenting marxism. The same reasoning (misrepresenting the left) was used to justify banning the over a dozen US military bases in Syriafags, and yet fucking dengists are apparently still allowed to post here? Fucking why? Is the BO a closet dengist or something?

I don't think there are Dengists here. On foreign policy alone, Deng was a plain criminal. Castro said at the time that Deng was a "parody of Hitler." Of course he also destroyed the Iron Rice Bowl and many other achievements that were made under Mao.
However, Castro later said that China and Vietnam are socialist.
I think that people trying to highlight the good in China are optimistic because Xi is reversing some of the Dengism. People made a big fuss over Bo Xilai's arrest, but the fact is that Xi is implementing most of the Chongqing model nationwide. Bringing national healthcare coverage, getting everyone to read Marx, cracking down on pollution, etc. There is hope for the future of the CPC, it's possible they will fix their revisionism.
Also, many "critics" of China simply spread lies or slanted info that doesn't match up to the whole picture. These people need to be refuted regardless.

Side note, the revisionism didn't start under Deng. Lin Biaoism was a major deviation in many respects, and Three Worlds Theory (which was first proposed by Deng as far as we know) was adopted by Mao. The terrible line that the USSR was imperialist belongs to Mao as well. Of course there's New Democracy. And Mao should have purged Deng much more thoroughly.
A couple good articles:
marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/lom-3.htm
espressostalinist.com/2016/06/30/lin-biaoism-and-the-third-world-how-idealism-distorts-class/

There's a "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" thread right now with people comparing dengism to lenin's NEP in an incredibly disingenuous manner in order justify china's market reforms.

Oh I agree, china's revolution was rotten from the start, but there's a massive difference between being a maoist and being an outright market apologist. I guess I'm just getting tired of people being banned for relatively petty reasons while dengists and "market socialist" scum get a free pass.

hooktube link?

fuck off with this bullshit

Gas yourself for unironically watching Steven universe.

It's real fucking easy to make one yourself faggot.

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It is, but Xi's Marxism campaign is changing this. Marxists are getting a lot more funding in Economics departments now and are being encouraged over libshit economists. They're still not dominant, but I think their influence is going to increase a lot.

I think we should, but I don't make the rules, so…

Without a trustworthy source I really doubt this. Is there any reason at all to believe that the "Marxism" that's being taught in China is not the same kind of shit that was described in the monthly review article?

Not a dengist, or anyone who thinks China could implement socialism without another revolution.
But bannong anyone who argues China is a DOTP or eventually will develop socialism again, will mean banning nearly any relevant communist party in the world, most of actual revolutionaries.
As well as Fidel Castro

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Fake, also if it was true wich character would be inspired by Unrhue?

Sorry, I have been reading hundreds of articles on this lately, I'm not sure where I read this specific claim. However, I don't see what is unbelievable about Marxist economics getting more funding when there is clearly a campaign for Marxist education in general (which is also beefing up the Marxism departments, separate from the econ depts).

This is the real question. I think there are two sides to it:
1. There's no doubt that these people will be reading Marx and other Marxists. These texts are not sanitized for the CPC line. Of course they could "read" Marx in order to distort it like Eurocoms and others do.
2. We need to just start reading their academic publications to find out. A lot of papers are published in English, and Google Translate is quite good these days. I have read a few unimpressive papers, but I haven't gone digging very much. I find it pretty improbably that China's massive Marxism departments can be worse than Marxism in European universities– and there are a few gems in European Marxism, so according to magnitude, there should be more writing of value in Chinese Marxist academia. You have to understand that Chinese censorship is quite sophisticated. Theory that goes against the CPC line is unlikely to be censored unless it is actually calling for some kind of insurrection or Taiwanese independence or something. Plenty of worthwhile things could be written in a "patriotic" way.

There's another question: what are the explicitly non-party-line academics saying? This is the successor site to Utopia, an online gathering of Maoists:
wyzxwk.com
It has a lot of academic authors on it. Go see for yourself (use translate if needed). I spent a night reading a bunch of articles on it, and there were some noted differences from rhetoric in Governance of China or party mouthpieces like Global Times:
- Theory of imperialism
- Some praise for CR era
- Against marketization
However, some of the theory there seems pretty degenerated too. Still, see for yourself and please report back your findings.

One other thing on this note, this article you posted ( monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/ ) makes it very obvious that there is an OPEN DEBATE among the Chinese on this issue.

And you LEFT OUT the counterarguments:

So this article you are gloating over actually supports my claim, that there is pushback in Chinese academia against the liberal market ideology. Moreover, note that the article was published in 2007, before the full depth of the market crisis was known. Xi was not even in charge at that point. The market crash marked a big defeat for the market reformers in Chinese politics, as their attempts to totally dismantle SOEs and other facets of the system have been halted or at least put on hold, because it served a reminder that the market was not going to be an infallible solution to problems.

His brother wouldn't approve of that
youtube.com/watch?v=Zy01Ihu2yEw

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Were do they say they are brothers? Also if so they don't have any contact or what?

Jim has said they were brothers every time he mentions him in a video, and even said that he "taught him everything that he knows". They actually are pretty tight and Jason used to actually acknowledge Jim in his older videos, but I can guess why he would be weary about doing that today. I mean could you imagine the reaction from the twitter vampire castle if they found out Jason was on good terms with Profit lol, he wouldn't hear the end of it.

I wouldn't go that far, I mean it's a retarded position but it's not really what I was objecting to.

Why do they have to do be banned? I mean I agree they are retards. Anyway its obvious the BO has Dengist sympathizes, he seems like a Marcyite and Marcyites are always sympathetic to dengism and just as anti anti revisionist/MLM as they are anti leftcom/anarchist/other trot

Because misrepresenting marxism in the manner in which they do creates a great deal of confusion to newcomers, as well as drumming up support for reactionary politics in the guise of "socialism". I mean, we ban people for supporting imperialism while pretending to be a leftist, why shouldn't we do the same to people who advocate capitalism using the language of the left?

ROO IS LEFTCOM

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>

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youtube.com/watch?v=6KQuhfIZiXU lol that makes some sense given the primary influence of his mentor

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The most truth-consentrated video on the internet.

Sooo, yeah not even sure what to say here, this thread is a mess. But I find it funny how posts this article on a very one sided matter and everyone freaks out but when corrects it all you guys are quiet.

There is of course a class struggle inside the CPCh between the Marxist-Leninist and Capitalists that want to corrupt the party and turn China into a Capitalist country with Capitalist "democracy". And I think it's safe to say that those Marxist-Leninist still are on top and preserving socialist China.

I think this is overly confident

How? Chinese CPCh consits of Workers and Farmers wich own the MoP, and Workers Unions have a very important role, with the SWRC leading in 92% of the SOES and half of Private. Also there are CPCh cells in Private entites that consit of over 100 Workers wich take leading role in decision making so private ownership isn't really "private". Also the number of Wealthy people in the NPC has also fallen while the numbers of worker representation rised

ft.com/content/6e012f42-1dae-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

thisisinsider.com/apple-manufacturer-foxconn-china-unreasonable-laws-regulations-more-overtime-should-be-allowed-2018-6?share=76a5cdd4

chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-10/14/content_33231346.htm

archive.is/OEhBP

forbes.com/sites/raykwong/2011/07/25/friends-dont-let-friends-become-chinese-billionaires/#1bcb975d2dda

workers.org/2015/07/21/china-rising-wages-and-worker-militancy/

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They don't.
and Workers Unions have a very important role, with the SWRC leading in 92% of the SOES and half of Private.
Unions aren't socialism.
If this was actually true there would be no reason to keep those companies private.
Wealthy people being represented less isn't socialism. Socialism is when they go to gulag.
>ft.com/content/6e012f42-1dae-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6
Not gonna subscribe lmao.
>thisisinsider.com/apple-manufacturer-foxconn-china-unreasonable-laws-regulations-more-overtime-should-be-allowed-2018-6?share=76a5cdd4
Having more regulations that the US isn't socialism.
>chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-10/14/content_33231346.htm
Rising wages aren't socialism. **This can happen under capitalism you fucking retard
Also this aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html and the simple fact that more Chinese farmers were self-sufficient before dengism, which means there were more people with a wage of 0$**
>archive.is/OEhBP
Tycoons existing anywhere outside of gulag isn't socialism.
>forbes.com/sites/raykwong/2011/07/25/friends-dont-let-friends-become-chinese-billionaires/#1bcb975d2dda
Some billionaires dying isn't socialism. **Guess what, Stalin killed off most of the 1917 Central Committee, but that still doesn't translate to Central Committe not having power.
>workers.org/2015/07/21/china-rising-wages-and-worker-militancy/
Rising wages and strikes happenning isn't socialism
The bourgeois doesn't need to be literally part of the bourgeiosie to be bourgeois.
What's that lol
Corporatism isn't socialism.

wow it's fucking nothing

You are trying to argue that China is still a DotP which isn't equivalent of socialism. Wage labor, unemployment, surplus extraction, commodity production etc. all not only exists in China but is dominating the economy. That means SoE are forced to produce in a capitalist way as well as capitalism is the dominant mode of production in China. You can open up a capitalist business anywhere in China. Yes there are some more regulation but so does Scandinavia. Norway or India must be actually existing socialsim as well, according to that logic. Pic related is a so-called "bike cementaries" in China. Chinese start-ups offer bike rental services, flood the market and then trash the cities with broken bikes. This is capitalism.

As to the debate about Marxism in the CPCh, where is the actual evidence that they take it seriously? Some Marxist academic who is not affiliated with the party isn't enough. I watched the party congress of the CPCh last year. They didn't say anything about actual Marxism. The only thing that you could interpret that way is that they talk about "being fully developed", they didn't even say that they have reached socialism or whatever, because they think they have socialism. At least Vietnam doesn't claim to have reached socialism. If you go to a Chinese school today, socialism is taught to the kids as "family values and patriotism", I'm not even kidding. A German film team visited a school that was picked out by the Chinese government, so that's obviously what they believe. Also, don't forget the repression against Maoists in China.

Forgot pics

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>Labrake: "there's no poverty in the DPRK"
Roo seems less detached from reality lately. It's weird. Also he absolutely crushed the other guy in this debate.

But them controlling the MoP is and that is exactly what the SWRC is doing

No what important is their political power not if they are in a gulag or not, bt the USSR under Stalin also had millionaires

According to Peter Edwards of Newcastle University, if people are to achieve normal life expectancy, they need roughly double the current IPL, or a minimum of $2.50 per day. But adopting this higher standard would seriously undermine the poverty reduction narrative. An IPL of $2.50 shows a poverty headcount of around 3.1 billion, almost triple what the World Bank and the Millennium Campaign would have us believe. It also shows that poverty is getting worse, not better, with nearly 353 million more people impoverished today than in 1981. With China taken out of the equation, that number shoots up to 852 million.

The article itself shows that China is the one that is pushing poverty reduction back the most, it shows that capitalist countries don't actually account for socialism.

Sure, but it shows that China uses the economic growth to benefit the people on the otherside you have the US wich minimum wage even fell while the income of the bottom 50% of china grew by 401% since the reform and opening up

No, did I say that? Read the article it reports about a story where workers beat their manager to death and CHina backed them up and nationlized the industry. Also the CPCh always pushes forward strike with raises being risen by 27% in some cases.

So if a Capitalist is not defined by him owning private mop and profiting from the surplus value, how do you define a capitalist?

That is the staff and workers’
representative councils wich take leading role in the SOEs and control their Workplace alongside the trade unions

holy shit this post alright so,

I'am trying to argue that China is socialist, because the socialist state sector owned by the Proletariat, consits of the MoP, so workers own the MoP -→ Socialist. ALongside there is a Private sector wich contribution is used in order to develop the prodcutive forces.

No, how do you define a dominante sector? China clearly holds the economic heights of the economy here are some examples of parts of the economy where the state has a monopoly in: aerospace

airlines,
aluminum,
architecture & design,
automotive,
aviation,

banking,
chemicals,
coal,
cotton,
electronics,

engineering,
forestry,
heavy equipment,
gold,
grain,
heavy machinery,
intelligence services,
iron,
materials,
metallurgy,
mining,
non-ferrous metals,
nuclear energy,
ocean shipping,
oil,
pharmaceuticals,
postal services
rail,
salt,
science and technology research,
ship building,
silk,
steel,
telecoms,
travel
utilities

This clearly seems like the dominant sector to me.

No it is the other way round, both, state and private, industries are forced to follow the five year plans wich goals are always to improve the livelyhood of the people like a raise of wages or the reduction of pollution.

Yes, what did you think? Chinese private industries act like ones, they are producing for profit and not for use value, but this doesn'T make China capitalist, wrong analysis, you need to look at the relation of the MoP, and this is clearly in the hand of the state.

As to the debate about Marxism in the CPCh, where is the actual evidence that they take it seriously? Some Marxist academic who is not affiliated with the party isn't enough. I watched the party congress of the CPCh last year. They didn't say anything about actual Marxism. The only thing that you could interpret that way is that they talk about "being fully developed", they didn't even say that they have reached socialism or whatever, because they think they have socialism. At least Vietnam doesn't claim to have reached socialism.

No, they really don't, China is often the one wich starts marxist project with invite of internation guest, they did this on Marx's birthday too for example and overall China very much encourages people to learn Chinese, over 2000 universities have mandated courses in Marxism, every party official needs to take courses in Marxism, stop lying

Thos are ultra left counterrevolutionaires wich wish to undermine the socialist China and destroy because out of their analysis its Capitalism, thats nothing new the GDR also had the KPD/ML, cracking down on them is nothing wrong since their hostile and want to destroy the socialist state.

archive.is/6a1lf

scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1299795/china-orders-nations-journalists-take-marxism-classes

news.vice.com/article/china-will-re-educate-government-officials-to-remind-them-that-communism-is-awesome

Unironically kill yourself my man.

Also why has your spelling, grammar and ability to form a coherent sentence deteriorated so much lately? Are you on the hooch?

Even if China isn't socialist I still support them, globally China is by far the biggest thread to NATO's Nazi dreams of total world conquest.

Yeah, I really hope China could develop socialism without another revolution, but his counterhegemonic position to NATO is pretty good, let me give you an example :they are the reason why for example Serbia is not part of the EU yet as they are giving them an alternative path towards economic developement.
Also without China Cuba and the DPRK wouldbe in a much worse state, also they support progressive goverments in South America, even if they are not socialist they are for the first time since 1990 a power that is limiting American imperialism.
Even if they are doing this only to pursue their interests they are certainely doing some benefit in the world.
Africa on the other hand is a much more complicated topic in relation to China

idk I was in a hurry
but it is still right what iam writing

China is socialist but you're right, China is the main enemy of the imperialists and exactly weaken our own imperialist countries so western "marxists" should be thankful to china in some way because they make it easier for us

THIS IS THE BRIZE OF CHINESE COMMUNISM!!!

SUPPORT SHENZEN CAPITALISTS STRUGGLE AGAINST WORKER IMPERIALISM!!

newbloommag.net/2018/07/31/jasic-struggle-shenzhen/

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Hammer and sickle is right. Kill yourself, you degnist douchebag.

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Yeah okay. I just want socialism not Scandinavian social democracy, but whatever radlib

I also wrote a more detailed refutation of his talking points in another thread recently.

I really should write some refuting dengist Lenin hat masterpost because he uses the same arguments recycled from Ismail in every thread and I'm tired of having to type out the same counter-arguments every time.

communism achieved by 2025 confirned

Wtf is your definition of socialism?

"country has red flag" probably

He attempts to define socialism and explain how China fits the definition here
>socialism is workers owning the Means of Production, so when we analyze China we need to look at the realtion to the productive forces and not at any percent numbers. So if we were to analyze the MoP we clearly see that those are in the hands of the State and the CPCh, they own the heights of the economy such as: The SASAC (China’s State Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, which answers directly to the State Council) has a state monopoly in every important industry sector
It's a bunch of anti-Marxist nonsense, of course.

...

They can start by practicing communism, until then zero fucks if they're banned

bump

I'm not saying that the CCP is a relevant Communist party as I had said I don't think they are going to develop socialism in China, not without a refundation and revolution
But I'm saying that mosr relevant Communist parties troughout the world, consider that China will eventually develop socialism and it is a DOTP, or at least an antiimperialist power to support, this includes also active guerrilla groups such as the Naxalites
So banning anyone who thinks this (or says it to gather Chinsese support) will mean banning most actual revolutionaries

But in my post I explain why China is a Socialist country, and show that the Socialist Secotr is the dominant one, read it.

Where?

And I wrote a refutation to that post

Xi Jinping earns 19000 US dollar per year, Obama on the other hand earned 400.000 a year

He is a Dengist you moron. And no.
You can only pick one.

China does not have socialism. Government ownership of the "commanding heights" is state-capitalism. In the Marxist definition of socialism there isn't even an exchange of goods in socialism since the transformation of the MoP into public property eliminates the need for wage-labor and commodity exchange.

These are the stages:
1. Capitalism
2. Dictatorship of the Proletariat (transition period)
3. Lower phase of communism (socialism)
4. Higher phase of communism

"Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor."
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

"With the seizing of the means of production by society, production of commodities is done away with, and, simultaneously, the mastery of the product over the producer."
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm