Americain is naturally vile being serving the capitalism these people have no humanity something must be made against...

yes we saw or bring Stalin's pacifism to the US

Dat American counterculture doe.

Said comrade rather than you are afraid that those whom the American bourgoisie has to oppress it avenges.
But you worry you will also take for the Middle-class persons of your country.
:)

Communists are far too gentle on capitalists.

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How ironic.

Unironically correct, and I say that as an American.

Meaning the government in Washington, or the people themselves, or the capital owners or….?

The US government needs destroyed
US hegemony needs destroyed
American reactionaries who cannot be won over need destroyed

There are a ton of retards here but the whole country doesn’t need cleansed from the Earth, fuck off retard
t. class conscious American communist

Cuck. People are not their governments. Read Stirner.

I do not deny the colonization to make by the bourgeois French
But American are irremediable you have already colonized us with mc do / apple and quite your shit :)

Mostly agree, but does the government need to be "destroyed" exactly? Couldn't it be reformed through elections and constitutional amendments?

yes yes we know the government does not represent the American people :)

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No.

Most of the American people are deeply deluded, but maybe they could become enlightened.

Reform seems more realistic than violent revolution tbh.

no Americans must be exterminated :)

Goddamnit you do this every time, I know you're the same fucking poster doing this
We've explained it like 30 times, reformism doesn't achieve socialism
the best it does is social democracy
the capitalist state is run by capitalists, not by normal citizens
it is an illusion

Bruh… Look at dis dood

Your explanation sucks. Social democracy is a massive step in the right direction.

Social democracy ahah a little trick to the gulag will make you think

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I'm not saying social democracy isn't better or in the right direction
I'm saying it won't "reform" into socialism
fucking christ you're dense

Why not?

It's Turd Positionism that ruins any chance at socialism, and will be reversed, setting us back to square one. We're not here because we want the slave to have a better bed and the master to stay his hand, we want the slave free and master dead.

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You forgot the comma.

Not that kind of social democracy. Social Democracy as a way of transitioning from capitalism to socialism.

are you fucking illiterate? are you unable to read?
>the capitalist state is run by capitalists, not by normal citizens. it is an illusion
capitalists aren't simply going to abolish themselves as a class
Damn it, I know you're deliberately trying to piss me off and I take the bait every time

Can not and will not ever happen. It is still bound to capital and private property, which means capital flight will either stop its own abolition, or will plunge the state into revolution.

to go through social democracy to get to socialism the most stupid idea that I know it already been trying in France you have to see the result :)

No. Read Marx and Lenin. The state machine (military, bureaucracy, etc) is bound up with the bourgeoisie in countless ways and the proletariat’s job is to destroy it

“No”
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm

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It almost succeeded in France. The only reason it didn't is because Mitterrand pussied out.

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No, I'm not trying to piss you off, I'm just pointing out that according to the law, the US government is elected by popular vote, not by the bourgeois, and that with a supermajority we can even change the Constitution. So why is violent revolution necessary or prudent?

Marxism (Leninism/Maoism) is a cult!

Hahaha you is similar that dulled at our with us in voting France so naïve melenchon

Literally the opposite is true, reread the law.

Which law?

trade it out for any other western democratic nation

You think they give a shit about the law? "The law" would go out of the window the moment your "social democracy" had the vaguest chance of accomplishing anything and you'd be saying hello to some nice constitutional fascism.

Also remember that these laws were written by - who else - the bourgeoisie.

evidence pls

Yes, now these machine spirits aren't going to calm themselves so chant after me:

Capital is fossilized labor
As the work of fixed capital increases in proportion to labor surplus value and therefore cost goes down
In the long term as long as destruction of fixed capital is avoided
The cost of production approaches nil

Not true because natural resources are limited.

Chile

A dyson sphere counts as land in modern economic jargon, son

I honestly wouldn't give a shit about the US if its hegemony were destroyed. In fact that might be the best punishment for amerifats, to live in a state which, robbed of its ability to exploit foreigners, turns its tendrils inwards and sucks super profits from its own citizens instead.

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you faggots are beyond repair, doesn't matter who your gubirmint are, you all have to die kthx

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...

Government, capitalists, police, and military should be destroyed/executed. Of the normal civilian population, I'd say around 20% are irredeemable fascists who should just be killed. Most of the other 80% have at least some extremely reactionary ideology, but I think they can be reeducated.

archive.org/details/pdfy-y_8iHigC3Ms5TngF
I'd have uploaded the .pdf but 8ch is being fucky.

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If there was overwhelming support for a socialist government, and we recorded the votes on election day, there's no way they could prevent socialists from controlling the government. If Jackson and Trump were elected, then so could a socialist.

The problem is just that socialism is marginal in the US, and Porky's relentless propaganda machine will almost certainly ensure that it stays that way.

Cuck.

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So you think the Deep State would stage a coup in obvious violation of the constitution? Well, that'd sure be interesting. It might even strengthen the resolve of the international socialist movement if they tried that. THAT would be the time for violent revolution, but not before.

...

was implying, not me.

Pic related.
Why is a violent revolution necessary? Because we’re NEVER going to get a supermajority or change the Constitution. I’m not being pessimistic, I’m being realistic. The state has a class-character and its class character is bourgeois. Just because the proles choose which member of the bourgeoisie to fuck them in the ass every four years doesn’t mean they’re the ones in control. There are already anti-Communist laws on the books in the US. Sure, they’re not enforced but they could be if they had a reason to.

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OK, then how could we win a revolution?

Nigger, it’s a piece of paper. They violate that shit daily in private and worship it in public. I assure you they wouldn’t bat an eye if they felt seriously violating the Constitution would preserve their dominance

In the US you do not elect a government during a (or rather THE) national election. You elect a president. This is probably the biggest reason why socdems have failed to abysmally in the US. The electoral system is literally designed to be as ineffective as possible. Combine this with the massive police state and you have a country in which internal socialist reform is more or less impossible on the national level.

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Not being able to get a supermajority in a bourgeois democracy doesn’t imply you can’t have a revolution.

Yes you do. All the house seats are up for a vote during the Presidential election. And surely if we could organize well enough to win a war we could organize well enough to vote in the mid-terms?

Wouldn't we need a most of the people to support it to win a revolution?

They violate the parts that are relatively ambiguous, not the extremely well established part about electing the government.

...

No, just "The State". The moment it looked like actual socialists that posed an actual threat to capital had any chance of making it in, you bet your ass the constitution would go out of the window (as if it hasn't already). Remember McCarthyism?

But muh based FDR and the New Deal

History suggests that if you win the vote, the civil war happens anyway
Probably better to win formal power first anyway
Then the other side are traitors attempting a putsch

No, most people are apolitical in our environment

Yes, but let THEM be the illegal revolutionaries, not US.

How the fuck could a minority of socialists win a war against the United States?

Exactly!

Protracted people's war. Just kidding, wait until the US empire collapses

Stop worshipping the law

You need less people than you think to actively take up arms. Socialism won’t come to America without some sort of violent uprising

Word.

Ultimately, maybe, but we should try to win electorally first.

Of course, I’m never going to swear off elections entirely but neither am I going to forget about the bourgoeois class character of the state. Illegal work and legal work both will need to be done and we shouldn’t shy away from it just because it’s against bourgeois laws. To do so is to sink into reformism and opportunism.

Well, I think the association socialism has with bloodshed is terrible optics and hinders our electoral efforts. Socialists should explicitly distance themselves from Marxist revolution.

Representatives are still beholden to the interests of the local and national bourg who wield massive amounts of influence at the state level. Socdems should focus on taking over individual states rather than wasting their time on muh presidency. They might actually get a third party going. "Might" being the key word here

Word. I think we should all move to Vermont and take over the state in similar way to how right-"libertarians" tried to take over New Hampshire with their Free State Project.

Are you the guy that was arguing in the LTV thread about how the LTV isn't real because bourg economists don't uphold it and that "Anti-socialists have strong arguments against Marxism in theory and in practice"?

;^)

You need to stop thinking of electoral efforts as being as important as you think they are. I think elections have a place but they shouldn’t be the end all be all of any serious socialist party’s objectives. Getting into government cucks your party, makes you focus on day-to-day reforms and leads you away from the real objective, the destruction of capitalism and the establishment of a dictatorship of the proletariat – real democracy. Are we going to shy away from the DOTP because it might be scary to porky or to petite-bourg retards? Raising class-consciousness and educating people should come hand in hand with electoral efforts but never will I trick myself into thinking we will ever see a socialist Congress or President
Lol, just lol

Yeah, I wish I could defend socialism without having to defend the LTV, Marx's praxis, Leninism or Maoism, highly controversial all.

You can. Become a utopian socialist!

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Then you're a utopian pussy who wants their "socialism" to come gift-wrapped in a nice clean box.

Is this because we'll never have the necessary majority, or because the electoral process is corrupted such that even if we did have the votes we wouldn't win the seats?

Non-Marxist socialism != utopianism. Nice strawman. I'm not an anarchist either. My position is close to Bookchin's but I want more centralization and global wealth redistribution.

t. victims of communism foundation

How about you get run over with a tank?

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Socialism was basically a dead end before Marx and Engels, it was all utopian or petty bourgeois trends.