What does Zig Forums think of the situation in Ukraine...

What does Zig Forums think of the situation in Ukraine? Specifically of the Donetsk People's Republic and it's position in all of this and it's future.

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youtube.com/watch?v=y-49TZO9F1Q
youtu.be/y-49TZO9F1Q
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Armenia_gas_pipeline
youtu.be/in5-2Xq9tU4
youtu.be/wHp47DRr-X0
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гастарбайтеры_в_России
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Fascists

Kind of spooked and didn't go far enough with nationalizing industry but fully deserve critical support, would ideally become independent from both Ukraine and Russia

Supports the rebels on paper but does everything in its power to stall the resolution of the conflict just so it could have a permanent thorn in Ukraine and Europe's ass. Debased and bluepilled

typical great power politics and no one wants to seriously stick their hands in fully due to how shitty Ukraine is and how much it would cost to fix the place up
it'll all go to shit when Ukraine defaults later this year/early next year

Donjestk rebels are cool, but most of the leaders are dead now and have been replaced by Russian commanders. Ukraine is a fascist shithole but it wasn't much better before Maidan. Russia is supporting the rebels as damage control for losing its imperialist influence over Ukraine as a whole (people forget that despite Crimea, Russia lost the Ukraine crisis). Also interesting titbit, people in Russia are starting to turn against the conflict because due to foreign aid that Russia provides means people in Donjetsk and Lukhansk have a slightly better quality of life than people in neighbouring Russia.
Regardless, is two imperialist powers fighting over an industrially import region: the only proper stance is revolutionary defeatism.

let's go through the events
the elected president rejects proposed deal with the EU as it's one sided and a bad deal for ukraine
US and EU stage a coup
the people in power are a bunch of well known neo nazis and criminal convicted oligarchs, with right wing terrorists in key position of the justice system and military, talking about ethnic cleanings against russians
the economy went to shit, there are huge lines of people trying to get cheap shit from poland and women being forced into prostitution by promises of jobs, deported to berlin and basically held hostage
meanwhile the right wing terror regime massacred protesters and continues to murder civilians in revenge for resisting, also to punish them for their russian ethnicity and political orientation towards the party of regions and communist party which is also outlawed in the western parts of the ukraine

it's also about seizing the industrialized parts that are for the most part in the area of donetsk and lugansk, they have higher income as people also go to work in russia, there's a stronger economic tie between russia and these regions than the ethnic russian parts have with western ukraine, which is essentially a peasant shithole that suffers from desertification.
the split between the NW and SE of "ukraine" goes through the whole short history of this "nation"

there is no annexation, there is no russian aggression
it was a push for escalation and military submission of the ukraine to the US and EU that backfired

funny that you just came up with this thread as finnbol uploaded this video only hours ago
Interview with Donbass Communist Russell Bentley
youtube.com/watch?v=y-49TZO9F1Q

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Here comes the shills crying "Russian imperialism!!!!!!".

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Russia is acting in imperialist interests but not because it is le invading muh poor misunderstood nazi Ukraine. Rather it is handling the conflict in such a way as to benefit its diplomatic ambitions and economic interests rather than decisively aiding Donbass. Many people on both sides of the border are aware of this and are growing weary of Russia's limp-wristed attitude. "Putin blew it" is a common meme among Donbass supporters.

Sorry, Russia is a bourg shithole, expecting it to act in the interests of Donbass workers is very naive

Товарищи, у нас есть амбал кто думает Россию Путина не империалистическую!

I feel like ultralefts and anarkiddies will only be content with russia when It ceases to exist.

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найс гугл транслейт лох

Stand with Imperial Germany against entente imperialism.

Time for false equivalences again.

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This makes me wonder actually
Do you use a lot of english loan words in russian?

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Yeah we use a shitton of english loan words nowadays, though "nice" in particular is more internet slang than common parlance

Iran supplies Syria with weapons and logistical support, it does this for its own material interests as well as using Syria as a "buffer zone" between ACTUAL imperialists and itself.

Are we to decry Iran as imperialist now?

Answer please.

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Yes now put the British Empire, French Empire and Russian Empire together. You have the entente. Read Lenin you pure nobooker, revolutionary defeatism is the only true path in conflicts between imperialist powers.
Also

Imperialism requires resource extraction and economic interests to be guarded, I do not know if Iran does this.
Russia however has a well documented history of doing this since the dissolution of the USSR.

Ok, have all the powers against US imperialism engage in "revolutionary defeatism" while the US still remains because petty booj faggots like yourself are spending your precious time bemoaning foreign threats.

I think your main priority is attacking the ACTUAL imperialists instead of those engaged in defensive measures.

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If Iran is known to do this, but Syria has agreed to let Iran extract resources - Such as Russia does with its "clientele" - then should we call Iran imperialist?

Just today Finbol uploaded an interview with a Communist from the Donetsk people's republic:youtu.be/y-49TZO9F1Q

I think everyone interested on whats happening there should see it

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Ignore people who are saying Russia is imperializing Ukraine. Do you really think capitalist Russia has the best interests of Donbass workers in mind? Or is it just exploiting the conflict for the gain of its oligarchs?

You can both not think Russia is beig imperialistic per se and still criticize it for its conduct.

Revolutionary defeatism also means undermining imperialism in your own country: Lenin didn't agitate within arms factories for shits and giggles. Shouting "Stand with Russia against EU imperialism!" Rather than say, trying to end arms exports from your country to various imperialist states, is fucking shit praxis.
Also failing to deal with the imperialism of other nations while attacking your own only helps imperialism as a mechanism. If Shell can't exploit an oil field, GAZPROM will. You need to attack both otherwise it is just pointless.

Dpends on the nature of the agreement, international trade (like that which occured between ML states) is fine. If Iran suddenly took possesion of Syrian oil fields, then that would be, by Lenin's standards, imperialism.

I know that Russia is capitalist and I'm not obfuscating that fact. I take contention with people comparing Russia to the US. It's not AT ALL equal. They are acting in completely different circumstances.

The problem here is that your idealism with "revolutionary defeatism" halts at the impasse of REALITY. The reality of western leftism is that of death and impotence. There is ZERO life in any attempt to take down ones own government in the west.

So with this evidence, any attacks you levy against foreign agents actually helps your own governments immensely because there's ZERO attempt to sabotage western governments.

Don't get me wrong, you can complain about Russia. Heck, it's your freedom of speech, but know that the consequence of your endless vitriol is propaganda and potentially collaborating with imperialist endeavors.

But Russia has NEVER done this to any neighboring state. Russia entered into agreements with their governments and took the resources that were deliberated on.

And the majority of Western imperialism isn't predicated on taking shit by force either, it's third world ceding resources and entering financial cabal through "deliberated agreements"

Russia is not an imperialist in Ukraine, but it pretty much is one in Central Asia

That might be the case in your country mate, but in mine we are on the verge of having a PM that will end arm exports to Israel, the Sauds 8 most others, leave the imperialist EU

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Armenia_gas_pipeline
Armenia and Iran build a gaspipline, meaning Iran can sell gas to western europe through the network and bypassing Russia. The partly Russian owned Armenogazprom suddenly changes the plans to have restricted flow so Iran cannot do this. 2 years later (as the pipeline nears completion) Russia buys up to 58% equity in the company. Now Russia owns q00% of what is now GAZPROM Armenia. In short, the only major sources of non Russian hydrocarbons i the country are owned by a state-owned Russian company. Tell me that ain't textbook shotgun deal imperialism.

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Are we starting this shit again? You were the one moaning ages ago about Tajikistan or some shit right? The same countries that have fucking ISIS within its borders.


Except it fucking is and you saying this is disgusting imperialist apologia . How many cases do you need? All of Africa? Libya? Syria? Ukraine (yes, force because it was A FUCKING COUP)? Iraq? Afghanistan?

Do you know of US presence in Africa?

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LMAO, I really hope you're not talking about the UK because yes, I do fucking live there and that's why I said what I did. LOOOOL.


Getting tricked by succdems again, one that has recently been equivocating on Israel's purpose and racism. Get a clue retard.

Your example of the pipeline is some serious straw grasping.

Not more than Russia in Checnyaya or Belguim in Brussels. Also that's such a fucking non arguement. Unless you are going "muh Russianman's burden"

Do you think those US bases in Africa were created with or without the consent of their nations (hint, it's with). Most imperialism is done by pointing a shotgun and saying "do it", rather than actually firing, and even then they point it at someone else and say "do it".

You really do need to read Lenin. Modern imperialism is first and foremost financial imperialism. I am not denying actual US invasions of places, but for every Lybia there is a dozen countries that are imperialized through trade agreements and presence of Western companies without a single shot fired.

Okay it is quite clear you are aruging in bad faith, if the US had pulled that shit in say Georgia would be decrying it as imperiaism of the highest order.

Wtf I love liberal interventionism now when Russia does it

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No because I've had this argument with you before and I know where it led.

Your argument would be that "russia has troops in Tajikistan guarding resources". When my rebuttal was that ISIS, a US/NATO proxy force, could very well sabotage these points of extraction/production with the US absolving themselves from any culpability.

It has HAPPENED in Syria, why CAN'T it happen there?

Do you support French troops in Algeria doing the same against islamist attacks?

But the US did try to partition Georgia from Russia even when most of Georgia were Russian speaking and politically adjacent. Don't tell me you believe the NATO narrative or russian aggression against georgia/ukraine?

Not comparable because most islamist groups are western creations. ISIS is not a russian creation. Lol.


Holy shit you're fucking stupid.

Done with the consent of governments you FORCEFULLY INSTALLED. Shall we go over the history of latin america for you to understand what I mean?

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Okay, out of interest: is every islamist in the world created by NATO? If not, which ones aren't? Would like to know.

Tell me where I'm wrong. You don't think France has a hand in the creation of many islamic groups?

If we're talking specifically about Algeria, it's still not comparable because Algeria was a damn colony that France committed many atrocities upon. Russia has NEVER done anything similar.

Despite your wish for it too, imperialism is often a lot more quiet than just COUPS, WARS, BOMBS. It takes the form of local elites being coopted by imperialist powers to give them the rights to extract resources. Just because coups happen, doesn't mean that imperialism is when America coups places.

NATO/US has literally created directly or indirectly every single Islamic terrorist organization.

Yes yes imperliasm is when Putin looks angrily at poor ukraine muh holodomor muh katyn.

That is such a deflection: France has had roles in islamist groups therefore all groups France has had some role in therefore it is imperialism when France does it but Russia has never done anything bad ergo it is fine when they do it. Again you are defending Russia taking what Lenin defines as imperialist actions (in this case the use of military force to defend economic assets of an imperialist power), while saying France is imperialist in undertaking such an action. You sir, are a shill.

EVERY SINGLE ONE? Wow that is quite impressive.

Not an arguement. No one has mentioned holodomor or Katyn. Also Katyn was Poland, you realiee that, right?

Yeah yeah Russia is USSR 2.0 Putin is the second coming of Lenin and Russian bourgeoisie would never do anything wrong

What's dumb about this logic is that you're going to employ it incredibly loosely. If there's even one armed guard near a point of material interest that's "imperialism" for you. That's what you're doing with Russia and central asia because you so desperately want to equate Russia with the US.


Yes, I'm not even being hyperbolic. I genuinely think western intervention throughout the 20th century has led to the creation of every single islamic terrorist group.


You're chucking as much shit at me so that something can stick. You're regurgitating the same argument yet are expecting completely different replies. I'm not entertaining your circular thought.


Like what does this mean, be specific. Local elites being coopted by imperialist powers? Ok, but this normally leads to coups or some form of forceful takeover. Where is the distinction? Compradors getting funding from western imperialists doesn't preclude western intervention.

Also reminder about this red flag faggot.

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Long story short.
Before the maidain pootin had a falling rating. To avoid the same fate, pootin ordered the anexation of crimea into RF. Igor Strelkov, the man who started the mess in Donbass, thought that this act meant that Russian Oligarchy who store their money in the west crossed the Rubicon against the west and with small force entered the East of Ukraine to kickstart the conflict. He expected that after witnessing the conflict, pootin would order to send the army there and annex it. Ukraine would not dare to figth, as Igor later realised pootin does not care about Russia and is not anti-nato anti-imperialist (his children and ex wife live in EU) and did not do as Igor expected. Since pootin does not give a damn, and Ukraine is not able to fight, the conflict kinda froze.

That is not me, I haven't used the black cat flag in my life and that post is retarded.

Poor fascist Ukraine -_-.

did you read what I wrote dumb ass? My is not about Ukraine, I just wrote what Igor himself year ago admitted.

Literally no mention of EU/NATO except the jab at putin being unprincipled.

I did mention the fact that pootins family lives in EU and nato countries and that his friends store stolen money there.

Also the intent was not to talk about nato, but to just briefly translate what Igor himself admitted year ago.

yeah, amazing how he started a pro EU movement with fascists taking over massacring russians just to get a hold of the russian populated areas

you fucking numbskull

He has been giving interviews for the past 3 years every month and he admitted it, you illiterate american idiot.


And you know who stated pro EU movement in Ukraine? Poverty. Ukraine is pro EU because EU is rich. There is literally all there is to euromaidan. EU is rich and Ukraine is poor. Ukrainians care less about politics than your average america, that is why there are 3 million or so Ukrainian emigrants in Eastern Europe.

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Is that why Ukraine hosts the largest neo-nazi rallies in Europe and is engaged in constant pogroms against their gypsy population. Is that why the Azov battalion exists? Is that why the leading members of the government refer to Russians as subhumans at press events?

i'll just leave you to your failed ideology based on being an illiterate dumbass, enjoy yourself being a miserable cunt that only reaps mockery

The reason Russia doesn't physically coup countries in its sphere of influence, is because it has already inherited the connections and infrastructure from the USSR. Of course, the Russian Federation being a bourgeois state, it uses these connections to exploit lesser countries. It's not about le evil russians but simply the logic of capitalism. Aside from the above example with pipelines, there's also the fact that certain countries like Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan derive something to the tune of 70% of their GDP from exporting slave labor to Russia, or Russia supporting governments that violently suppress leftists and trade unions, like Kazakhstan.

I am not saying Russia is an imperialist in Ukraine. I am not saying Russia and America are the same. I legitimately critically support Russia wherever it is actually fighting Western imperialism, like Syria. But saying capitalist Russia is completely spotless and doesn't exploit other countries is some Putin shill shit

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doubt anyone is standing up for fucking putin, really, and it's clear he's a dirty fucker
but liberals are just shitting their bad like the retards they are completely joining in the NATO propaganda, they can't even read their own sources and just make shit up completely contradicting the reality on the ground

In other news, apparently Zakharchenko (President of Donetsk) was just killed in an explosion.

Press F to pay respects

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pic related

when will russia decolonize? ie relinquish control of non ethnically rus areas it took during the imperial grab for land.

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He didn't admit to starting maidan, illiterate idiot. He admitted to to have started war in Donbass, he himself said that, baboon.
He himself said it in the first few minute in this video
youtu.be/in5-2Xq9tU4

In this video he admits that pootin betrayed donbass.
youtu.be/wHp47DRr-X0


There are over hundred videos where he says the same thing.

The only decolonization Russia should do is to give non-Russian regions Autonomous SSR status in the neo-RSFSR.

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Him, Motorolla, Givi: all the original leaders are dead, replaced with Russian puppets. Any revolutionary potential Donjetskk had is gone.

Tbh it should have let Chechnya go in then1990s but oh well, they're an islamist hellhole now.

mcain, kabzon and now him?

Citation please.

Westerners shouldn't be telling foreign countries anything or trying to be some pious arbiter when they're so impotent against their own governments.

I think he reefers to remittance, but it's not slave labor, it's just immigrants.

Oh so westerners shouldn't criticise Israel or Saudi Arabia? got it.

Don't forget Givi & Motorola.

US puppets can be criticized, even then, your own governments are funding and sustaining their existence. Your umbrage should be domestic.

ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гастарбайтеры_в_России

Okay 70% is an exaggeration but for Tajikistan migrant remittances make up nearly half of its economy, slightly less for Kyrgyzstan and Moldova. Considering many of them are illegals, they are for all intents and purposes slaves.

Why though?

That has to be a parody.

Obvious photoshop, and it's not even in Donbass

Soviets let Afghanistan go. Then they ended up getting the very same zealots from Afghanistan - only in Chechnya.

Once they let Chechnya go, they'll get Wahhabi uprisings elsewhere.

There are no "ethnically rus areas".

What you want would be dozens of tiny princedoms endlessly waging wars on each other a-la Africa.

Chechnya under Dzokhar Dudayev was basically ba'ath gang. It wasn't until the war started that foreign mujahideen and Saudi funds started leaking over the border, turning it into a jihadi state. No telling what would have happened if it was left alone


Are you saying that decolonization of Africa was a bad thing? (In principle, not in execution)

Jeez, I wonder who killed him

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And this thread SUDDENLY CAME INTO BEING RIGHT BEFORE IT

Of course, since it was even more vulnerable to foreign influence independent Chechnya would've been left alone!

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

Also, there is no "in principle", only "in execution" - real or hypothetical. So clarify what hypothetical execution you are talking about.

Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Russia may have legitimate reasons to be involved in Ukraine, but that doesn’t mean they don’t also have imperial ambitions there.

Can you explain to me what makes these remittances different from migrants to America and western europe? Are those people "slaves" because they send money back to their home country?

It's an honest question.

Of course they have. Just like Kiev oligarchs have imperial ambitions in Donbass (since it is effectively foreign territory now, and they have zero intentions or treating population as citizens of Ukraine). Just like any other capitalists.

That is, however, irrelevant. The only nation that is actually functioning as imperialist is neither Ukraine nor Russia. It is US - which is sacrosanct (in practice, if not in theory) to anti-authoritarian "Left".

and finnbols knew too
i also get rubel from putin himself for ridiculing you

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Nothing. Why do you think that if I criticize Russia I absolve Western countries of doing the same shit? It's a sign of periphery's economic dependence on the capitalist center. It's regrettable and often inhumane whenever it happens.


While decolonization of Africa happened on Western terms and resulted in a fuckton of tribal warfare and imperialism, it was still progressive compared to direct colonialism and spawned some legitimate national liberation movements, like in Burkina Faso. Could've been far better but it's overall a good thing, no question. Why would you oppose a theoretical decolonization of Russia if its people actually demanded it?

I just wanted your opinion, I wasn't putting you on the spot.

Well since we are talking about Russia I brought up an example of how it affects its periphery. If we were talking about say France I'd talk about migrants in France.

And they're slaves because they're often treated as such with no legal repercussion, since they tend to be illegals. Of course, the very fact they have to sell their labor to a foreign capitalist so their families at home do not starve is abominable.

Yesterday I met a Tajik worker while helping my family shop for gardening tools. He asked me for a cig and complained about his working conditions. He literally lived in the store as a house slave, working all day with no pay for months and no legal obligations on the employer's part. He rarely even has opportunity to bathe. This is literally in one of Russia's largest cities. No doubt it happens elsewhere, but shit man. It still sucks

Are you russian?

Да товарищ.

Does Left in US include not only liberals now, but neo-cons too?


[Doubt]

You have to actually PROVE that Russia is parasitic on a national scale.
Russia is not in a place to have an overall parasitic relationship with its neighbors because it has to actually gain their favor due to its disadvantaged position. This situation is not likely to change any time soon. Russia is not imperialist.

Russia is functioning as imperialist, just not in Ukraine. They extract resources, prop up corrupt, reactionary regimes, and station troops all over Central Asia. This doesn’t excuse the crimes of fascist Ukraine or American imperialism, but it does mean we shouldn’t whitewash or be apologists for Russian ambition and exploitation.

Who said I am against dividing the US? I am all for it.


What would suffice as such proof?

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Basically, the way that imperialism works today is that corporations in the core outsource either through Foreign Direct Investment or contracting. The effect of both relations is that the surplus labor in the outsourced country does not stay in that country, it is sucked up into the imperialist country. In the case of FDI it is obvious, but in contracting, what it means is that there are thousands of of factories competing at cutthroat prices to receive contracts, meaning they are paid for their productive power rather than their full product.
The bourgeoisie of these factories are equivalent in status to the petty booj of the imperialist country, and the way they skim a living is by paying their workers below the price of labor power. There are multiple ways they can pay below the price of labor power:
-unpaid overtime (eat into future labor power)
-underpaid paid time (force workers into toxic slums or count on them being housewives who depend on their families)
-eliminating unproductive aspects of the MOP which actually go into labor power (such as air conditioning, safety regs, structural stability, etc)
-…
In the imperialist country, this is reflected by the dominance of FINANCE CAPITAL in the economy, as the profits are being taken from the countries where production occurs, and seem to magically appear in the imperialist banks, leading the bourgeoisie to conclude that banks are productive. The Russian economy is not dominated by finance capital. As well, there should be some statistics to show that more money is leaving the imperialized country than is entering from the imperialist country.

Russia's "corrupt deals" with its satellite states are generally favorable or equitable to those countries because Russia can't afford to have NATO expand even closer to its borders. Ukraine is the typical example, where you can observe the clear difference in living standards between the plain capitalistic relations between Russia and Ukraine previously, and now the imperialist relations between EU/US and Ukraine now.

You would have to prove that Russia is dominated by finance capital and FDI/outsourcing and that it is parasitic towards its satellites. Not just "they prop up corrupt dictatorzz."

I'm not in a position to do sufficient research to polemicize with this right now, but you make a cogent point that I'll have to concede to for now. I'll still stick to revolutionary defeatism for my country though.

What would you say about the labor migration point though? Is it not a sign that Russia and Central Asia have a core-periphery relationship?