Howdy Zig Forums. I'm a friendly sojourner from Zig Forums...

Howdy Zig Forums. I'm a friendly sojourner from Zig Forums. I like to visit left wing websites to see what you guys are talking about and try and put my finger on the pulse of "opposing" ideologies so I'm not just living in opposition of strawmen created in my head or in the heads of others. I'll skim Huffpo and WaPo (not actual leftists I know, but they and outlets like CNN run damage control or cover for actual leftists) and hell, I even read the Forward for kicks.

What I'm curious about is: what about your beliefs and convictions about the world do you wish that right wingers or really anyone who isn't a leftist would understand better? 99% of political arguments are basically a huge shit flinging waste of time because the two parties involved are just attacking strawmen they "train" against in their own torture chamberes instead of actually addressing real points the other person made or believes in (and let's be real, 99% of people who feel invested in political arguments on the internet are fkn morons anyway but that's beside the point).

In what ways do you think you're misunderstood? At the very least, when I'm arguing with or thinking about an idea, I want to have the best understanding of it that I can. Thanks.

Cheers friends!

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Other urls found in this thread:

docs.google.com/document/d/1Gxwhh-vdeB--47HM-20cEVRC9eAMhrapbNf0Sk8VSOs/mobilebasic
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2627127.html#2638615
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
espressostalinist.com/2013/05/11/engels-lenin-and-stalin-on-bourgeois-equality-and-straw-man-arguments-against-marxism/
dmagazine.com/frontburner/2018/05/rakem-balogun-dallas/
youtu.be/Ijas1ovB2f0
youtu.be/J10jKdPRN9A
invidio.us/watch?v=EeawJRRHWpE
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Also, lol at h.u.g. b.o.x. filtering to "torture chamber". That's amusing.

read these:

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Surely you've gotten into some arguments with right wingers online. What are the most common exaggerations or mishandling (deliberate or otherwise) of an idea you typically see? You know, those talking points or ideas that you see and think "Oh, great, this again?"

Honestly, I just wish that people would understand the unsustainable nature of modern capitalism bit better, be it in format of automation,economic immigration,concentration of capital in format of corporate consolidation, consistently weaker powers of the employees in relation to employers etc. the systematic failures of current economic policies basically.

Even the most hardcore Not Socialist would agree those are serious unresolved issues today. What's truly unfortunate is that I don't really see how that is unsustainable. What's going to stop it?

As a Georgist, I don't feel all that misunderstood, but very lonely.

Revolution or reform, witch ever happens first personally I`m more aligned to the latter option. Universal basic income and something akin to anti-tax haven systems that EU for example has been calling for might be a good starting point.

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Oh yeah, that's a common one. Mostly it's normalfags who say that type of thing though. Capitalism is totally dependent on the state. It would generate one if there was a state of anarchy.

It's fucking capitalism that's causing a huge majority of the issue our world is facing and only by replacing capitalism can we survive.
Literally all my views are opposite to what most right wingers and/or liberals see as communistic.
100 Million killed, Human nature, race somehow mattering. Basically every single argument leveled against me. Most of them are misunderstandings or anti-communist lies.
1. Falling rate of profit 2. You can't stop class conflict 3. Environmental disaster 4. Constant crisis etc etc

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Elaborate on this, this is what I'm interested in. Your other points are more about what you see as other people misunderstanding about the world, not as what other people misunderstand about the ideas and views you have.

Take a squiz at this
docs.google.com/document/d/1Gxwhh-vdeB--47HM-20cEVRC9eAMhrapbNf0Sk8VSOs/mobilebasic
Examples below.
Socialism = Big government
Socialists = Anti-gun
Socialists = Anti-culture
Socialists = anti [insert race here]
Socialists hate the workers and are just in it for themselves
Socialists want to recreate the USSR despite different material conditions
Marxist-Leninists want to recreate the USSR despite different material conditions
Socialists love mass immigration
and finally
Non red liberal socialists = literally fucking nazbol
Nazis were socialist
[Insert socialist nation here] ever reached communism
SOCIALISTS = SJWs/LIBERALS
That last one is the worst

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not him but communism is literally the condition for individualism.

Man I just want to move past the system that makes humans hurt each other and themselves more than is necessary. Is that too much of a hippie sentiment?

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I'm really not a big fan of political activism in the West at the moment. One reason for this is because as points out, 99% of the population have a really unsophisticated notion of Capitalism and its general structural features ("when people trade stuff, so capitalism has existed for 2000 years!") and Socialism ("when the government does stuff and the more stuff it does the more socialister it is!") and what it might entail. Even worst is when fascist unironically believe the latter and churn out some retarded third-positionist bullshit, though, they might also do this because of pure, unadulterated opportunism.

Of course I don't expect the average person to have read three volumes of Das Capital, but its got to the point where, as you state, political debates essentially consist of two people screeching past one another. The new definition of "socialism" as it exists has become a mainstay because of the complete catastrophic defeat of the Left following the Cold War, though, leftoid opportunism probably began to sprout itself by the time the New Left has fermented itself in the Nixon years. Sometimes they even outright turned to neo-Conservatism. The reason why this shift in meaning occurred in the post-Cold War is simply because leftoids have completely given up and began to speak the language of the Liberals. Instead of seeing Social Democracy as the parasitic left wing of fascism, the leftoid opportunist embraces it and tells themselves that every country can develop a fucking Scandinavian economy, throwing out any pretense of material analysis. The leftoid embraces "civic duties" and "democratic culture" instead of class struggle

The defeat of the left and its dire lack of any creativity and imagination following the Cold War means we can all sit here all day subjecting ourselves to scathing hot takes by retarded charlatans like Francis Fukuyama and Boomer Peterson about how mean we are to their brain dead boomers friends who believe George Soros is the mastermind behind an international child sex trafficking ring that runs underneath a pizza restaurant in Washington DC.

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They actually do that for people like you, especially WaPo. Huffpo is mostly libs with the occasional leftist writing for the op-ed section.

8ch.net/leftypol/res/2627127.html#2638615

Every fucking time.

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Fake Zig Forums Die.

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anarchism is not about breaking things randomly in the street

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Meme debunking

Don't forget
Am I forgetting anything?

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Even if they did, i fail to grasp what's wrong about it.
They call it the great patriotic war for a reason.

The USSR just didn't have a need for them for the most part, it was an industrialized power with a sophisticated military doctrine. When people talk about human waves and the like they try to conjure an image of Africa-tier impoverished savages charging into fray with gun-shaped sticks, which is as far from reality as possible

I would really like to see an example of this. For example, CNN recently had one of their anchors say that Antifa were morally in the right even if they sometimes used vigilante violence. In contrast, their coverage of an event like Charlottesville was less than favorable to those who instigated the event.

check out videos by Noam Chomsky. he also has a movie on Netflix, requiem for an American dream. american antifa are usually not considered /ourguys/. The mainstream media will always support the capilaist state and the ruling class. Always have done, always will. It's propaganda at the end of the day, and communism hasn't been and will never be supported by the American ruling class.


I don't really go on Zig Forums. The usual context I see Zig Forums posts are getting btfo'd ethier in halfchan's /lit/ or here.
this is pretty common.
no effort in reading the FAQ. more on this, ex-Zig Forumsacks turned lefties don't understand the nuances of rejecting sjws.
burgers are almost completely liberal. socialists hold no power and the government has repeatedly made effort to dismantle left gatherings, to this day. furthermore, we're not even that big of a board. and finally, we usually don't give a flying fuck about whatever x is, but burger propaganda has made them think otherwise.
and other retarded conspiracies that are more contrived and hard to believe than the equally evil but very easily identifiable 'ruling class'.
on that point, bootlicking non-jewish porky is a pretty sad state of affairs.
and other esoteric bullshit
not understanding how economic reality changes profoundly the so called 'human nature'

I honestly think that suburbanites just haven't experienced a modern job. The job market is as ruthless as ever, we're getting paid a lot less, and everything is a lot more expensive. I honestly feel that they just haven't felt how horrible it is to have to actually lick the bosses boots because you need the job. Work overtime for no pay. Have very little time for your hobbies and hanging out with friends and family. Homeownership is a far off dream, I'll pay a landlord for the rest of my life. There's no time or money for a family. Not only that, but most jobs are literally useless. Pass some numbers from one spreadsheet to another, print it out, scan it, and send it to your boss. You'd need to be numb for a job like that not to be soul crushing. Is it really so crazy to think that despite all the technological advances, people shouldn't be as miserable as they are? popping pills to offset the fast paced ruthlessness of modern society? can we even call it progress if we're more miserable now than before? the air and water are poison, and all we think about is 'progress'. Capitalism is a death cult that has a fetish for suffering. We decorate it with imagery of belonging, tolerance, and happiness to offset the alienation, and honor and tradition to offset the decay of these through the comodification of society. The alt right doesn't understand that modern capitalism needs sjw otherkin tolerance singing kumbaya, or the system will cease to function. It's also no surprise Americans are very insistent on asserting their identities (white, Patriots fan, democrat/Republican, gay, latinx, alt right, antifa, socialist), without tradition, honor, and belonging, the system would collapse as well. What point is there of being an identity if you only live your identity on the weekends (or online). All these contradictions will get worse, we'll just keep marching to our collective death beating the drum of the so called 'progress'.

not sure, the way r-wingers tend to sperg out when you say that a self-proclaimed socialist state did not oversee an actual socialist society is pretty annoying though so:
when I say "the USSR/China/wherever" never was socialist I am NOT claiming that its leaders saw themselves as something other than socialists. I am claiming that they were fundamentally mistaken about what socialism is or how to bring it about or circumstances prevented them from doing so (usually some combination of these three). I am not necessarily claiming that they had bad intentions and being a socialist is just a matter of having good intentions

I'd like to know more about this. What specific instances are you talking about?
Have there been any efforts to shut down leftism on the internet? For example, Alex Jones' youtube channel was recently taken down. He's vaguely right wing in some senses, but he had hundreds of thousands, probably over a million subscribers on youtube. Do you know if any major leftist media outlets have been censored in a similar way? If there have been, the news hasn't been widely circulated.

You hit the nail on the head with that last part. The core userbase of Zig Forums is labor aristocrat/petit bourg scions with no relationship to the MoP. Best case scenario they work Uberized jobs with no real risk if they get laid off, that if they dont mooch off parents or mine bitcoin. They feel that their comfy newgrounds copypasta lifestyle is being compromised by capitalism but because they have no class consciousness they can never become truly radicalized. They can only participate in the spectacle by assuming an identity based on videogames and lashing out against what they perceive as immediate threats (nigs and f*moids).

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
general anti communist and anti union propaganda has worked wonders though
there was also this Abby girl, who got defunded, no idea who she is. apparently a communist.
There are very little communist outlets. None nearly as big as Alex Jones. Most are just hobby YouTubers. We're not a big threat to the US, so we're generally left alone online. That said, there is currently talk that we might get censored soon, and during the US presidential elections, there was a lot of paranoia of state actors in this board because some posters were trying to derail conversations. There's also a suspicion that "SJWism" was orchestrated by the FBI/CIA to desintegrate the left andparently there's good evidence of this. Either way, it worked.

Also operation gladio

Mandela effect confirmed

Abby Martin. She was working for TeleSUR (a foreign broadcasting network owned by the Venezuelan state) and producing a show for it called Empire Files and the U.S. government froze money transfers, apparently.

Funny thing – she went on Joe Rogan a few months ago.

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That socialism is when everyone is literally the same. espressostalinist.com/2013/05/11/engels-lenin-and-stalin-on-bourgeois-equality-and-straw-man-arguments-against-marxism/

Look up the book "Heavy Radicals" by A. Leonard and C. Gallagher which goes all into it. This goes back to the 1960s when the U.S. government created phony left-wing groups (Maoists were their favorite) to circulate bulletins within the left designed to cause infighting. The point was to "foster factionalism" and create "disruption and discord." The feds even instructed their agents within SDS to attend the group's conventions and support the more militant faction, the goal being to split the organization and get the more militant types to pop off.

I'm basically convinced this group in Austin called the Red Guards is another iteration of it. The tricky thing is that "copjacketing" – accusations of being a cop – is itself one of these tactics. So people try to be polite and not say it, but these guys are basically following the known playbook by the numbers, and I'm serious when I say the primary thing they do is attack other left-wing groups in the city, and if you're a leftist in that town involved in any kind of political organizing, the Red Guards are far and away your biggest threat short of the police itself; even more than any fascist gang of which there are several.

The pic is of them disrupting a PSL gathering recently. The PSL is another Marxist party. The Red Guards are also turbo-turbo-turbo-SJWs and that's often how they frame their attacks. Basically, every other left-wing group according to them is not SJW enough, but it's all written in this quasi-Marxist language that is extremely militant in style. Dangerous group. One of their members was also arrested months back on firearms charges, and the group released a long bulletin accusing another member of being an informant who ratted him out – and these two guys had also gotten into it with each other and the cops got called. Whatever is going on, it's a total mess.

Yeah. I wouldn't say orchestrated per se but I think the feds use SJWism as a disruptive tool, and it's very effective.

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The feds have also tried to use Alex Jones videos as evidence against leftists in bogus criminal cases FYI:

dmagazine.com/frontburner/2018/05/rakem-balogun-dallas/

Don't mind us just COINTELPROing your shit up :^)

youtu.be/Ijas1ovB2f0

Literally just the definition of socialism/communism and what it entails. Many people think socialism is synonymous with unlimited free gibs, or in worse cases aren't even aware of the private/personal property distinction. Which isn't too surprising since that is how history of socialism is generally treated in mainstream education.

I don't have time to debunk this now, just watch BadMouse's video
youtu.be/J10jKdPRN9A

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don't know if you're still around and I don't feel like reading the thread so some of these might've already been addressed:

you can own the exact same stuff under socialism that you do under capitalism, except for means of production.
in socialism there's a distinction between private property and personal property.
personal property is everything you own that you can't have anyone else exploit for you to profit off: like your house, TV, furniture, cellphone, car, etc.
private property is everything you can have people exploit for you to profit off: land, machinery, tools etc, also called means of production.
even then you can own means of production as long as YOU are the only one making money off it

this one is fucking retarded, specifically because it was said by Margaret Thatcher and I'm pretty sure she was talking about social democracy and not socialism.
under socialism if you want money you have to work for it, you can't take other people's money, and other people can't take your money, that's the point of socialism.
as opposed to capitalism, where by owning means of production you can take money generated by your employees, literally taking other people's money.

it doesn't matter if you're greedy or lazy or neither, that won't make the system "not work", not any more than capitalism.
if you're greedy that means you want money, under socialism you can't have people work for you, which means that all your wealth will have to come from your work.
if anything, being greedy works better under socialism.
if you're lazy, you're gonna work as much as you do under capitalism, since you still have to use money to buy stuff.
not to mention that capitalism alienates the worker from their work, in socialism you can do what you like, and even if you don't do what you like, you're still working for yourself, something you don't do under capitalism, which will motivate you to work more than under capitalism.

Having watched his critique before, there are still a few reasons why I'd personally support UBI, to a small degree, while being generally critical of it.

The economic harshness of our modern capitalism and the creation of the gig-working and freelancing "precariat" have shaped conditions under which an ever growing share of laborers do not have the economic security nor the time and spiritual energy to invest into organizing and class-struggle. What is the point of a union or any organization to the laborer if they're just "passing trough" a trade? While BadMouse talked about how vague and directionless the liberative ability of UBI is, he did not account the severity of how all the available efforts of this precariat are already consumed by the mere act of getting by and surviving. These normalizingly perpetual borderline-dire economic situations elevate at worst the risks associated with a struggle towards an allegedly better future to nebulous and dangerous levels in the spooked minds.

While a small UBI and limited social security nets might help by providing some breathing space, I personally think this issue would still be better fixed by strengthening unions and other worker-controlled networks of mutual aid rather than handing the reigns to the bourgeois state by relying on their handouts. Still, strides towards capitalizing the popularity of the concept should be taken, as aggressive black-and-white opposition might be harmful due to this popularity. So perhaps the left should support a UBI of sorts, but on our terms? After all, creating the conditions of mere survival are not our end goal.

Guy Standing gave some good points on the subject when lecturing at the Norwegian Society of Labor History (SFAH) this April:
invidio.us/watch?v=EeawJRRHWpE

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I wonder if the Maoists that fought with Al-Quida in the Afgan war were COINTELPRO.

CNN, liberal media, and anyone who supports capitalism are complicit in the rise of fascism.

So yes, your mom is secretly based and redpilled.

recently, Google massively deranked a lot of big left websites.
the fbi used to routinely spy and sabotage any leftist org, and were specialists in planting fake evidence to incriminate them
try to add even sourced claims that go against the msm or anti imperialist analysis to wikipedia recent events, you have no hope. same for ussr history

Zig Forums lurker here as well. agree with OP. I actually like debating you guys, but you always expect me to read massive tomes of theorems about something that I feel is unsustainable. I'll give you guys one book after I'm done with culture of critique. I'm thinking cockshott, but don't know. any suggestions?

OP should put OP in name field as there are no IDs here. I'd like to see which is OP's and which isn't.

sorry OP, I see you did put that in your name field above, i jumped the gun there.

nevermind fuck I'm confused

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There are plenty of Bernie supporters who say there socialist