"Democratic socialists" and other cucks please refrain from posting in this thread.
Should we, as socialists/communists, support far right movements in elections where there is no relevant left wing party? I'm Irish and we don't have any popular genuine nationalist party like the UK, so this doesn't apply to me, but taking the UK, France, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, etc. as an example. It's obvious the "socialist" parties will just wind up like Alexis Tsipras, i.e. both incapable of taking action and unwilling to, a liberal making face of a "socialist". At best they'll offer a larger welfare state, which the corporate overlords are already pushing for with universal basic income.
So what I'm proposing: We back far right parties like UKIP or BNP, Front Nationale, AfD, etc. We let them enter the mainstream, or even win the leadership. History has shown that communist parties have always risen in conjunction with far-right, reactionary nationalist politics (think the Not Socialists in Germany, the fascists in Italy, the Russian civil war, the Spanish civil war, etc.). We need to break the liberal power structure to allow genuine revolutionary politics to come to the forefront.
What do you guys think?
Should we support UKIP and nationalist politics short term to break the liberal power structure?
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No we Shouldnt because while UKIP proposes and supports effectively the Dissolving of the EU it proposes to simply fill the void with something worse
Plus UKIP is dead anyway and Literally actually lets fucking Carlgon be their Youth / Social-Media Ambassador
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A good example of Socialists cooperating with Non-Socialists for common good is the Cooperation between the Revanchists in Germany in the Interwar period and the Soviet-KMT alliance during the 20s / Sino-Jap war
Yes, that's genuinely what I'm saying. I don't know if supporting libertarians would have the same effect. You'd think it would increase support for communism, but there's no historical precedent for that happening, while there is a definite one for supporting reactionary, nationalist politics.
what supports communism, is the crash happens, and people see the frauds that the social democrats are.
hello fellow leftist
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I agree with all this. I hope things get a lot worse in every aspect of society for this reason. But I feel we need to pull support away from the "democratic socialists", or at least shift things much further towards the fringes.
Why not support Leftist / Communist / Left-SocialDemocrat paries that ALSO advocate Euro-Reform/Abolishment?
en.wikipedia.org
(Also KKE / PPWP in greece / Cyprus and PCR in Italy except they arent allowed to Join GUE-NGL because they havent condemned stinky meany smelly Marxism-Leninism)
imma be real with you fam, if you think UKIP and Le Pen are actually anti-establishment and will plunge Europe into a revolutionary situation you are either a deluded Zig Forumsack or just a brainlet
I regret saying UKIP somewhat, but Le Pen definitely is anti-establishment.
Because it's not about the EU. It's about the elite, which control every Westernized country from Japan to the EU. Taking down the EU will do nothing if corporate interests are still in control.
Again, intuitively I'd think supporting libertarianism is the best way to increase support for communism, but for some reason that doesn't work, whereas supporting racism/nationalism does.
Melanchon and actual fucking Meme group's like PCF / CPR / CRCE / GDR / French Unions have a better chance of taking over then Le-Pen at this Point since Macron ended up acting like a NeoCon Blowhard instead of a NeoLib one and has managed to successfully almost start a general strike and has demolished the French Rights reputation
Yeah so why not take em down with Communists so their not still in control?
yeah. demsocs are gay.
clandestine organizing makes the most sense rn
Because in some countries (like mine), communists don't have a single seat, not only in the national houses of government but even in the local councils. If any communist party were to try become more prominent, they'd be seen as a joke and be considered autistic. I feel like there has to be a massive looming thread for people to get off their asses as fight for change.
What should I call them if not the elite? What do you call corporate leaders, politicians, the media, if not the elite? You're just being a dick.
Anti-migrant far-right euroskeptics like Orban have already won in certain European countries and there is no sight of strengthened leftist parties there. What are you basing your assertion on? Today's conditions are radically different to Spain in the 1930s.
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Now you're just being pretentious
this shit doesn't work.
Fuck
You got your histmat wrong. Leftist movements don't appear in response to reaction, it's the other way around. Hence 'reaction'. Euroskeptics aren't actual fascists/reactionaries, they are classical libs defending the interests of national capital against neolibs and international capital. Porky has no use for fascism right now precisely because the Left is so weak, which is why fascists are jacking off to traps on the internet instead of existing irl.
Le Pen's father was literally a fucking Thatcherite, neck feck off.
It's obvious the "socialist" parties will just wind up like Alexis Tsipras, i.e. both incapable of taking action and unwilling to, a liberal making face of a "socialist".
And this is a good thing: if reformists fail, then it will show people that reform it is very hard to reform capitalism and maybe itt force people towards more radical positions. If reforms succed (which is not supossed to happen, but is still a possibility since bourgeois freedoms are not mere appearances but actual freedoms which are supplemented by the implicit rules of bourgeois dictatorship and this relationship can be undermined precisely by using these bourgeois freedoms against the class they are supposed to protect) than it will show that we communists are ready to advance the position of the working class.
You couldn't be any more wrong: what history has really shown is that crisises of the capitalist order give rise to extremism on both sides of the political spectrum. If you were right about this then why does every country in Eastern Europe is plagued with reactionaries with no true left in sight?
No. While such an approach is tempting when borne out of frustration, the reality is that such an approach is far more tedious than the alternative of ignoring the battle or passively defending liberalism. Where SocDems buckle on their pledge to challenge liberal hegemony on economics, nationalists invariably do the same, or indeed accelerate the undesirable trends of liberalism while achieving nothing of meaning. I mean look at Trump. Wew, some tariffs, wew, bellicose foreign policy stated overtly rather than with a modicum of subtlety. Result, what? It's not interesting. It's not even entertaining, and it's certainly not a real threat. If anything it just stirs up an artificial liberal reaction, where liberals suddenly imagine themselves as being radicals for being opposed to an uncouth president. There's nothing to be gained in pushing for this as communists, not revolutionary potential but worse, not even potential entertainment. Where candidates of the centre have held on, the result has almost inevitably been less entertaining than where crazy people win. (Imagine the cringe comedy of a Clinton presidency, for example, or recall Macron being too smart for journalists and Theresa May's backdrop falling to the ground at party conference.)
History also shows how those ended, Comrade. But that fearmongering shouldn't enter the equation at all.
Yes, There have been more socialist revolutions born out of fascism/nationalists states.
There has never been a socialist state that has came about from Social Democracy.
Socdems kill revolution worse than fascism.
What about the Bolivarian Revolution?
Accelerationism is for brainlettes and is a psyop to get the left to abandon and betray it's base.
Is Venezuela socialist?
name one
It's striving towards socialism and ruled by a socialist party, which is as good as any socialist state can claim.
You guys need to get your shit together because this world is hijacked by madmen who could care less about any of us. Vote the incumbents out by all means, doesn't matter if its grassroots right or grassroots left - vote ALL the incumbents OUT.
No! It is same as supporting nazi germany because it is fighting against British Empire. I agree that status quo is not perfect, but what scum like UKIP which has people like carl benjamin offers is far forse. Support people like Jeremy Corbyn or Luc Melenchon, rather than scum like carl benjamin and nigel farage
is that why they're privatizing?
It was not german revolution, but Soviet.
liberation, not revolution. try again.
The status quo is what is fucking everything up. You need to pull your head out your ass and realize this. Whether its left-leaning or right-leaning grassroots, it doesn't matter much which succeeds: the incumbents - the status quo - IS the problem.
cringe and bad
hope to god you're an american or you've got no excuse whatsoever for this sort of thing.
Dude….
if you're a poltard then this is much better than the usual efforts
if you're not then you're just plain retarded
its valid
right so we let nazis take over, then wait for the soviet union to back our revolution. i can't possibly see any flaws with this plan in the year of our lord 2018.
… but they aren't. In fact, the government has been seizing assets of opposition saboteurs. What are you even on about?
Good post comrade
Yeah the whole idea of "let's vote for the enemy" sounds too clever by half. There are 1,000 things I'd rather do including doing nothing or just reading big, thick books.
In short.USA has trump, Austria, Hungary also has alt right assholes in charge. Wheres the Revolution in those places?
Why are you here shilling for UKIP and ignoring Corbyn?
socialism has came about after a failed fascist state
socialism has never came from social democracy
ok liberal
revolution is more likely in those places than if they were to have succdems in charge
When?
Did I say vote for Democrats? Do so, or don't. I don't really care.
The UK actually has a meaningful left wing movement though, so no, don't fucking support the nationalists.
You starting this whole thing out with "demsoc cucks fug off :—-DDD" makes me wonder if you just really like nationalism and wants leftypol's blessing in supporting them.
keep moving those goalposts on our spherical earth and you're sure to arrive at actually existing socialism eventually.
original claims:
revised claims
tfw we end up with
socialism comes from failed monarchies
all the revolutionary potential in the world currently lies in the united kingdom, sweden, saudi arabia, and new zealand once the maori king movement takes off.
Yeah I was about to say. I'm not sure of any socialist revolutions to have come out of fascist states either unless you count the Soviet invasions into Central Europe. A lot of fascist states (or the half-assed ones like in Portugal) reverted to social democracy.
IMO the deal with Marxism is that you're supposed to follow materialism and dialectics which can predict history (at least better than the other guys) and give you a path to accomplish stuff, but most do not actually do this because it's really hard and complicated, so they just repeat what they've heard other people say.
Most people who call themselves Marxists don't know the right strategy or whatever, or have thought that deeply about it, and while I believe in this stuff I don't actually have any plan when I say shit.
At least 2/4 of these were dismal failures. The Nazis are a spectacular example of the failure of authoritarian "accelerationism." They got to purge the communists and then it was only after they invaded a retarded amount of countries and killed a ridiculous amount of people in a ridiculously short time that they were stopped. And in spite of Catalonia's temporary success, the left very decisively lost the Spanish civil war - and because Franco wasn't eager to invite his country's extermination like Hitler did, the direct implications went on even longer with a leader who was extremely hostile to communists.
Correct. Both Spain and Portugal had fascist government for decades.
No.
Yes! but only if there's no real communist party in your nation. Democratic socialists are scum and although they will fuck shit up, they do it in a very slowly way.
If there's no real communist party in your country, then vote for the furthest of the right party there available.
Austria has puted the people working 12h per day. They will get angry as time passes…just wait.
If that's your attitude you need to leave. Honestly, anyone who admits to voting for a democratic socialist or, God forbid, a socdem, should be banned on sight.
What about people who admit to voting for nationalists?
If they're doing it in a destructive sense it makes a lot more sense than voting for some establishment plant.
Get the fuck out faggot. I'm not even sure which "left wing movement" you're talking about but I'm 99% sure you're shilling some socdem/demsoc fucks.
yeah, fuck off
obvious Zig Forums plant is obvious
or /liberty/, I remember they recently had a thread about converting lefties with le ebic accelerationism meme
I think it's pretty easy to argue that Labour is more destructive towards the establishment than UKIP.
Accelerationism has lost all meaning. To accelerate the expansion of capital you vote for the liberals who want to pass trade deals, privatize the water supply and cut welfare spending.
Gas yourself cryptofash.
The ruling class fears demands that may trigger further demands. They dont fear your petty bourg nationalist daddy.
yeah this, if you want to be accelerationist vote for libertarians/"classic liberals" who support austerity. not reactionary socdems to troll liberals ebic style
Fuck you. I'm more Zig Forums than most of you kids combined. I've been here for 4 years asshole. If you're going to call me a cryptofascist of a "Zig Forums plant" despite everything I've done for this board you can fuck right off.
It's tragic my man. The big problem of the people on this board is that they don't realize how they themself turn away many people from left wing ideas. I for example have many questions and don't know where to get answers because fuckers here are unresonable.
You should ask /marx/ tbh.
No. As a matter of fact antifascism should be a more pressing short term goal than anti-liberalism, which is a lot more cumbersome.
The nationalists crypto fascists that are currently rising to power are economically liberal, even more so than the establishment right and unlike the establishment right they are gonna be a lot harder on opposition if their rise to power continues. Nothing good would come from tolerating them.
if you truly spent 4 years here and still spout retarded shit like "communist parties have always risen in conjunction with far-right, reactionary nationalist politics" while being incapable of defending your positions other than by calling everyone socdem and samefagging, I think we're better off without you
Please don't accuse me of that shit. You're being a jerk for no reason.>>2658400
I shouldn't have to defend my reputation like this. Just fuck off if you vote for democratic socialists, I said it first thing in OP.
fuckk just realized it doesn't say (you) on OP or my first few posts since I deleted cookies earlier.
Ok, you win! I'm abandoning thread. Feel good about yourself. I'm not leaving the board but you win I'll never post about this again.
meant for
FUCK
meant
for
Jesus Christ
I'm having a bad day
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yes
Isn't this reason to support them? By supporting national capital over international capital you create the conditions for industry to grow and with the growth of industry comes the growth of the working class.
Read Fannon
Kerensky was a social democrat
We should hope that soc-dems come into power while criticising them relentlessly. Once they fail and bow down to capital it's easier to accept the socialist argument. Right now, old-school social democracy is considered extreme left-wing insanity, so I doubt that the population will jump into Marxism any time soon.