China’s Leaders Confront an Unlikely Foe: Ardent Young Communists

I’m skeptical of their ability to unite any other Asian countries against the US. Generally speaking they have few allies in the region even being capitalist, with their only significant military partners being the DPRK and possibly Pakistan. India, ASEAN countries, Japan, ROK, and Phillipines are all against them, and if anything that opposition will only intensify if they make a return to socialism. What might happen though is that China making a successful turn to a planned economy may bolster leftists in India and the Phillipines, or even motivate Vietnam to reverse its revisionist course. That all seems unlikely however.

They think real life is like their ebin vidya gaymes

CIA.

This.

NYT is pretty much State Department propaganda. We must stand by China against these Trotskyites

It’s honestly hard to tell whether or not people are serious when they say shit like this.

Social Imperialist

...

As far as I know their biggest problem with India is border conflict and Vietnam past war. If they the government will turn socialist, but remain economically and politically pragmatic they could win a lot of allies thanks to their science and industry alone.

The New York Times is my favorite anti-revisionist publication.

What if they did turn out to be supported/controlled by the CIA (the young people/groups questioned)? Are you completely ruling it out?

Why are we wholeheartedly believing the NYtimes , of all publications? Wasn't the west's coverage of Tienanmen Square misinformation?

FULLY ERECT

It was misinformation but it's still an unforgivable act by the government.

The true master race arises

china isnt socialist retard, the nep phase theyre having has a very real chance of making itself permanent, it needs these people to tear down those too comfortable with their current position

I never said that RETARD.

For instance, most of the middle eastern countries aren't socialist yet they've had CIA operate there.

Me neither, just reinforcing the fact that having marxists take action instead of dengists is good, yet you insist on focusing on another pol pot tier of shit

Can I get the full article? I’m not an NYT paypig

chuangcn.org/2018/06/eight-leftists-analysis/
Chuang wrote something about this a while ago

And I just posited that maybe these "marxists" reported by the damn NYtimes may not be genuine. Would it still be a good thing that a CIA/foreign controlled organization under the guise of marxists weaken the chinese state?

I'm not talking about a vacuum, I'm asking if that would be a good thing while America retains it's hegemony.

I doubt the cia has that king of power in china

It would not be unprecedented:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia

having pirate radio stations is different than from infiltrating universities and radicalizing marxists

Actual communist movements are anti-imperialist and need to be supressed

But what if they aren't?
You're implying that if there's a movement (in this case a communist movement against a supposed "communist" country which needs to prove that they're socialist other than in state propaganda magazines, not that I'm not saying that the USA is telling the truth) against a country that is anti-capitalist it's automatically controlled by the CIA.
Let's say that in a hypothetical war between the USA and China, USA is winning, and there's a communist revolution 1917 style (funded with american weapons as a revolution would fuck up China, benefitting them in the war), which says that Deng is a traitor to the communist project for selling the country to the capitalists, nationals or foreigns. Would you support it, even being supported by american porkies?
Now let's say that the same scenario happens, but in reverse, the Chinese now control de west coast, and in America a revolution a la 1917 (with chinese weapons and support) is happening now in the USA. Would you support the revolution against the USA which is being supported by chinese porkies?

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(me)
I meant to say anti-capitalist.

This. Are we all fucking forgetting that the Germans literally sent Lenin back to Russia on a goddamn train? Short sighted support for revolutionaries in order to harass their rivals is one of the best things bourgeois governments can do for our movements, and we should take full advantage of them. Hmmm, it’s almost like there’s a quote about being hung with the rope that said hanging class sold to us…

This surely has got my anarcho-liberal ass blasted epic style.

(me, again)
By this is that I'm not saying that american propaganda is telling the truth. I think American propaganda tell lies to justify their imperialism.

stop doing this shit

US media obviously wants to destabilize China, and I can easily believe that they'd promote Marxist protests in order to do it. Doesn't mean they're wrong though, China needs a new Maoist purge of revisionists as soon as possible.
As stated above, the fact that Lenin was sent as an attempt to fuck up Russia didn't make him a bourgeois agent, just the consequence of imperialist in-fighting that communists should take advantage of.

CIA Imperialist Supporters run this board!

Look I'm going to lay out my beliefs here because people think I support china just to spite the US.

What I believe is that America is ostensibly, and objectionably the leading capitalist state. Their military and influence makes all other nations, including china, pale in comparison.

What's first needed is America to weaken it's hegemony SEVERELY before we start agitating the discontent in other countries. I feel like a lot of people are fooled by the media spectacle in the US and believe that the CIA is equally as incompetent as the republicans present themselves. So they think that any trouble in other nations wouldn't be seized on immediately.

What I can vociferously state is that America has been responsible for capitalism and its corollary effects for the last 50 years, this shouldn't be contentious. However I'm getting the impression that people genuinely believe the world is truly multi-polar with russia/china representing a mirror to the US in terms of operations. This is not the case, Russia is still a poor country with a trifling military, China is also not as wealthy as people believe. Yes china has had massive GROWTH but the country is still way below per capita GDP compared to the US.

We may blame this on China's public spending measures, but the country has 4x the population of the US, so even if that new gained wealth were divided with the most generous policies, China would still be poor in comparison. It's not the rival to the US as many publications keep informing us - however - it holds the potential to be. Yet I don't think that'd be the case for another 40 years.

To your specific question: It exists in another reality that we can only entertain, and I believe that the intention is to set up your example as being plausible within our reality. It's not, the US will maintain its hold on the international platform if serious happens to its capitalist class. China at best will only be a vassal state to the US which tries to gain for itself what it gives to the US, however that relation is one of tenuous subjugation. The US ultimately ordains how international capitalism.

We keep talking about potentials, and the future. Which yes I will concede that china may be on equal footing to the US, but we're not there yet. It's better to deal with observable reality than possible futures (which have only been theorized by liberal rags like the NYtimes, meant to foster orientalist fears).

Would I support the revolution in China if the US is winning? I would base on historical precedent, that the US has organized fifth columns and rebel groups to coup governments. You may ask "Why would they do that when they're already winning the war?". They've done it in Iraq and Libya, they've done it to numerous latin american countries.

The second question you'd probably ask is "Why would these groups call themselves communist? Those previous groups never claimed themselves as such", and that's where my conspiratorial thinking comes in. I believe that this recent "progressive" socdem wave in the West will be used to facilitate a sort of "left wing imperialism" by transposing all the faults of the west onto victim states. Telling us that we should support leftist groups there, and that we as a "leftist/socdem" country are in solidarity with those left groups in said victim countries. It's not the first time it's happened. Meanwhile we'd still be propagating the same old imperialism.

What marks this new neoliberal age is deception, in every crevice of the bourgeois state there is manipulation and deceit. Keep the proles in a constant state of confusion and fear. We know this, yet people still believe bourgeois press like the NYtimes and other state-paid commenteriat.

The only way I would support a Chinese communist party is if they ousted their government THEN relented against the USA. If they deposed their government and then capitulated to the US, then you would see capitalism extend even further and deeper than before. That is the problem with being funded by foreign porkies, the interests of the comprador groups is entwined with the interest of those who fund them, instead of the proles of their own nation.

I can elaborate further if you want.

In response to

Even if it's true and it's a CIA op, I don't mind. Just ask the German Empire.

I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on this specifically.

This is really out of field but I feel this is a good place to share it.

Ocasio-cortez and all the other "progressives" are shilling a sort of halfway house between capitalism and socialsim. In any other world where people were honest with themselves, they'd know that as fascism. Democrats are preaching for class collaboration, they actively suppress unions and they'd still maintain the private prison system. Even under a supposed "progressive" candidate these things will still be in effect.

The effect of morphing these old, hideous practices under a progressive umbrella is to further disincentive dissent and conflate said dissent with opposing the "progressiveness" that only exists in spectacle. It is all purely spectacle. I do not place any trust in people who meander around points and give half assed answers to questions, as Ocasio has done - it is obviously disingenuous and as we are not mind readers, there's no way to infer what she actually wants. We can only infer her actual policies by looking at the party she represents.

Western leftists have fallen time and time again in abetting imperialism to alleviate "human rights" concerns in foreign countries. I don't see how this is news to some. It will give immeasurably worse with a "socdem" government because they'd have swindled both the "leftists" and right wingers into supporting imperialism.

We'd probably get a bernie-like to decry China as an oppressor state and the US as victims, where trump was laughed at for making that claim, people would believe a socdem because the spectacle makes people view the world through the lens of fiction rather than a world where people protect their material interests first and foremost.

America
A.merica
america

American
american
A.merican

I really like how most mods aren't a bunch of dumb fucks like the BO.

...

twitter.com/PDChina/status/1045401409372528640
PRIVATISATION GANG

Only word I used in a flimsy way was ostensibly, yet I meant that in "superficially" as America can be seen as the most prominent capitalist state. But appearances aren't everything, so I go on to say objectionably with substantiated evidence; beyond appearance .

Nice rebuttal by the way, enlightening.

I don't really think anyone here seriously believes that China is socialist except for a few retards and Dengist Hat

It's not America
It's anti-capitalist
A.nti-american or something like that

Oh and are you really going to be a grammer nazi over one apostrophe?

I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure you're BO.
It wasn't a geopolitical question, it was an ideological one. What I asked wasn't if this scenario was possible or not (as I said in a hypothetical world). The question was kinda set like America=Germany(1914) and China=Russia(1914). What would YOU support, what would you do?

What I asked for was if you would support this revolution as in a hypothetical scenario, you can't just evade the question like this, that right now is not possible or that that would happen in a parallel universe but not in this one.

The question's simple, would you support a revolution in China/America in case of a war between them, as those revolutions are supported by the contrary (China's revolution funded by American porkies an America's revolution funded by Chinese porkies)?

I think this is one of the problems of the actual left right now, that we're getting real schizophrenic about stuff (be it with idpol shit or "We are being observed by the CIA everyday", not that I'm saying you said that.), like if the CIA are playing 69d Age of Empires. Let's remember the CIA are the same ones which supported the Taliban to own the soviets epic style and that they don't have ultra-brains that go beyond our capacities as mere mortals.
We shouldn't treat America like the nazis do with the jews, and by that I mean that we shouldn't treat them like they're behind everything. And by this I'm not saying that we should be naïve either.

The thing is that you don't know if this will be the case, you can't predict the future, and this applies to both cases, to the Chinese revolution and to the american revolution, as in both cases in can get into "We are communist but I think we should sell all of our shit to America/China". Would you risk it to see if they're actually communist or you wouldn't? Would you take the bet?

I hope I have made me understand well enough.

Try with anti-capitalist.

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the delusions never end

China has just eclipsed the US in GDP (PPP)
the world IS multi-polar and the balance is shifting increasingly to non-US countries

You can't just divorce the question from its material roots.

Woops brainfart, I meant objectively over objectionably. FFS dunno why I made that mistake.

Sorry for my ignorance but I don't know too much about this topic but can anyone give me an example of two countries being at war/conflict and the porkies of one country funding revolutionaries in the other country and said revolutionaries end up ousting their government? Any example where the revolutionaries failed? also I suppose the revolutionaries don't have to be explicitly socialist

Really? It says that the US GDP stands at 18.7 trillion while china is at 11.2.

We can't support the Bolsheviks right now, the Russian Empire needs stability to fight the German Empire. The German Empire is way more powerful and revolutionaries in Russia will just destabilize it and turn it into a German vassal. Support the mensheviks instead.

what part of PPP do you not understand

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Talk about cramped living.

Feels bad man

Yet how does this factor into china eclipsing the US in any other form? This metric is only really used to compare living standards and people's ability to sustain themselves. Do people in china have a higher standard of living than those in the US?

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He’s got a point tho. PPP doesn’t mean shit in the world market or when compared against many other factors.

If you think you can effectivelt seperate ideology from geopolitics you're basing your argument in idealism. Dont even agree with the other guy you're replying to entirely but he's arguing from a much stronger position and you're just forcing hypotheticals to vet for ideological purity.

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Take it to the thread about Seder lad, there are a bunch of people in there calling people conspiratorial for suggesting this same thing

Look I was being a tad facetious but :

I wasn't even discussing this so I'm not regressing into a red herring. I admit, I'm not an expert on the finer details of economics, I've never studied it officially . So I'll give this as a response:

quora.com/Why-is-the-Chinese-PPP-GDP-larger-than-the-US’-PPP-GDP

Would you support it or not? It's as simple as that.
If you don't want to answer don't do it, but don't go just evading the question.
Let's say that Country X and Country Y are in a war, and X is winning against Y (which is supposed to be a "communist" country, and if it where to be in the position of X would do the same that is doing X), and in Y there's a revolution, a socialist one, that says that the country has gone to ruin for not following the socialist path. Would you support the revolution in Y even if they're being supported by the porkies of X?
Let's say that country X and Country Y are in war, and Y is winning against X (which is a country that is making the world suffer for the profit of the global bourgeosie) there's a revolution, a socialist one, would you support it, even if it's supported by Y porkies who just want to become the next X?

In this case China and America doesn't exist, Country X and Country Y exists.

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Unlikely to whom? I'm not a communist, but I saw this shit coming a mile away.

< it's never been tried, but I'll try
kekked

Obviously I was referring to most realistic scenario. Allying with North Korea, reproaching Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Fixing relationships with BRICS ally India.

Here's hoping tbh.

Something that I thought of when you mentioned this scenario, but during the Russian civil war, is it true that some american porkies funded the bolsheviks? Or is this just a conspiracy? If it is true why would they do this? I can see why germans would've done this but why would american capitalists do this? Also in this scenario do the capitalists expect the revolutionaries they fund to win? What if they do win though and are legit socialists (like what happened with the bolsheviks if they were funded by american capitalists) How does that help the porkies that funded them?

You typed all that and said absolutely nothing of worth, impressive.

As of right now, I wouldn't support communist rebels in China. The threat of American imperialism is too great to put at risk for ideology's sake, and only recently has China's productive forces reached a level of development that can put it on level footing with the first world. As American influence declines and as China advances into late-stage capitalism, however, my answer will change because the material conditions will change.

This has to be polyp posting considering the racial implications.

Actually a false-flaging third-worldist, wouldn't you know.

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This. Porkies are unprincipled opportunists. German porkies backed the Bolsheviks and modern porkies will back any group they think might destabilize their geopolitical rivals, even if that group is communist.

So there is no difference then.

I wasn't saying that, but ok.

That happened during the Russian Revolution. The Germans helped smuggle Lenin back into Russia through Finland. There are also some sources that say they supplied the Bolsheviks with guns and even had plans to intervene in the civil war on their side. They also ceased offensive operations during periods of Bolshevik agitation in the Tsar’s army, with the aim of allowing the Bolsheviks to subvert it without the troops distracted by actual fighting.

But what if said revolutionaries win though? The germans may have funded the bolsheviks to destabilize the Russian Empire but I doubt they wanted them to win I'm not really complaining though, I believe the best way socialists should approach this is being pragmatic and accepting this bourgeois support, if the capitalists thought their support would help us win they wouldn't do it, they always think we'll lose and we have to prove them wrong

China is perfect for this because they might actually achieve the level of automation and artificial intelligence required for communism to work.

And you said literally NOTHING. Congratulations!

I don't get it, morons from Zig Forums are treated with more respect than those who may be skeptical of fucking bourgeois media coverage of foreign countries. It's baffling.

Like people legitimately get angrier at those who don't tow the russia/china fearmongering line than they do with out and out fascists.

Anarkiddies literally spend most of their research NOT to counter capitalist arguments but to "own le ☭TANKIE☭s!". Pathetic!

wew.

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Nazbol GANG proudly endorses and supports all anti-dengist protests taking place in China.

Honestly can’t believe that self proclaimed Leninists are towing the “Chinese Maoists are CIA” line. Lenin specifically says that the solution to confrontation between competing imperialist powers isn’t to side with the less powerful option, it’s to practice revolutionary defeatism in your own country and to urge comrades across the globe to do the same. This isn’t even a case where you can make the anti-imperialist argument in favour of China, because China is a major imperialist power. What people are endorsing here, the “critical support” of Chinese vampire porkies with their sweatshops and suicide nets, and blatant imperialism in Africa and elsewhere, is no different than the SPD voting to go to war, and literally rationalizing it by saying that the Entente was more imperialist than Germany. This is social imperialism plain and simple.

with a dose of cockshottism

Could work

This so much

It's not gonna happen tho.

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Some people just don’t want to confront the reality of the massive failure of the movement at the end of the 20th century. Because of that, they want to believe that the powerful state of China is on their side. But of course, it is obvious to anyone that they have no communist principles at all, they are capitalists through and through.

not with that attitude

how can we contact them?

Didn't some anons here try sending a copy of TANS to the Cuban president and Kim Jong un? If you really want to contact them the best option I'd say is to contact their embassy and try to send them TANS. That being said though, you should probably try either with Cuba or the DPRK. China is too far gone down the capitalist hellhole to ever recover from revisionism imo.

Who cares if these people are given a bit of cash by the CIA. Socialism > Capitalism. And Capitalism that America doesn’t like is still Capitalism.

We aren’t talking about Socdem. These people in China are communists, and if overthroughing the Capitalist Government in China temporarily helps Burger Porkies so be it.

Why not read the reply chain instead of posting?