Incentives

Yeah sure you've been to Cuba lmfao

for honor and glory:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

Although, in an ideal scenario, planning and distribution would be so precise and quick that basic needs would be fufilled almost instantly, meaning that the work done in society is done so to the fullest extent of fufillment for the worker, so a cook could get the adequate amount of ingredients he needed, engineers could get the tools and materials, etc.

Simply put the ideal would be for things that bug you like living expenses to fade into the background so you can focus on raising a family or fufilling your ambitions.

I see that you've never been to lower Manhattan. except that, while the USA is a massive, superpower, Cuba is a small island nation under sanctions.

Read this and cry harder: nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=923279

My mom went to a travel agency in calle 8 that made the paperwork to make it look like we were visiting a cuban relative.

???
You know you can just go on holiday there, right?
You are obviously lying. First talking out of your ass about how cubans are and then pretending that cuba is some kind of no-entry zone for foreigners.

It was before they opened it up for travel to the general public.

Sure buddy

How old were you when you went?

25 if i remember correctly

So you're in your 40's at least now?

No im 29…

Cuba opened up travel for the general public in 1999/2000 lmfao

I think they did after they took back the weet feet policy which was in like 2016

not for American citizens

IMO, developed socialism would probably require some kind of flexible worktime system, where you apply for a specific number of hours doing some kind of socially necessary work, and are directly renumerated for it. More hours of work = more consumption
Though MLs are technically correct that labour isn't really a commodity when there's universal employment and no labour market, if the fixed 9-to-5 form prevails then it's not fundamentally removed from capitalist wage labour.

Abolishing the set work-as-much-as-we-can-get-workers-to-do-without-pissing-off-unions workday is a nobrainer.

The workers need to lead the revolution themselves. If someone else is leading it for them, they're obviously not going to fully understand the "why" of their revolt, and will remain entrenched in capitalist modes of thought.

You had to get a special permit to travel from the US from then onwards, which have changed over the years, but you can also just go to Canada or Mexico first and then fly to Cuba as a US Citizen, the Embargo is only actually US side, Cuba wants the tourists. Tens of Thousands of US Citizens use this method every year lol.

It's pretty complicated, there were easings on visas and stuff in 09,11 & 14 but recently that's all gone down the shitter. What I wanna know is why your mother forged rather than just going to Canada first (Cuba doesn't attach any records to your Passport, they do it all seperately because of the Embargo), there's no chance of getting caught if you're smart and the penalties for forged visits if discovered are just as harsh.

Cause cuba is closer to miami than canada

OP, I don't think people here are offended because you tell made-up stories, but how incompetent you are at it. If you want to have an actual discussion about incentives, you can just ask about that, so let's drop this my-uncle-at-nintendo crap.

Leading implies a subset, a smaller group. If all of a group is "leading" then it is not leading.

Also anarchists tend to call anyone who leads the working class not-working class, even if they are working class, just because they dont work 10 hours a day in a steelmill (because they lead a political opposition and are supported in that by the workers materially).

er honestly I dunno, you're right that you used to be able to get to Cuba by way of Canada before 2014 but it still wasn't that easy iirc, I believe it involved procuring a special visa from the cuban consulate in Canada and dhs would give you shit if they found cuban stamps in your passport on your way back

You're right, my mistake. Anyway, historically, if you want to "lead" the working class, you probably aren't the working class. And we all know where vanguardism leads. Well, some of us do.

How many levels of pseudo-leftism does it take to hold this view? It will literally never happen.

Christ, this board really is shit sometimes.

Cuba won't stamp your passport, they stamp a seperate visa, it's honestly pretty easy, hence why as many US citizens travelly illegally to Cuba as they do legally through the Neighbouring country method.

Taking a charter flight would have been easier

The incentive is survival - no food, no life.

The situation solves itself, and I'm not some guy who is dependent on technology, but robots could do a lot of that type of labour in the future anyway.

Cubans are still required to work for food.
But thats it.
They show up the rest is pretty much up to them.
Im sure they got a manager in charge but they dont probably care either.
They do have farming coops though but i dont know if they have to sell what they produce to the state.

For a while, communal property was only recognised by the state of Cuba, but new ammendments have been made to allow market-based private enterprises to promote growth in the economy, of course, the socialist nature of Cuba disincentives personal enrichment from these ventures and most assets are collected by the state of Cuba, there are heavy regulations on hiring practices also, not allowing any discrimination based on aspects of an individual's identity.
Many businesses must also buy produce from state-run industries.

Cuba is embracing market-socialist techniques to utilise labour in more effective ways. What is worrying though is that Cuba have revoked their cause for a communist society and are planning to reform their model of socialism instead. This is what happens when you don't have international cooperation towards communism, of course, you must adapt to the global economy.

worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/25312/is-cuba-s-vision-of-market-socialism-sustainable

Name an alternative to the vanguard, I haven't seen an effective one

People need to wake up to the evils of capitalism, and hopefully the imminent effects of climate change will speed that process along. The revolution isn't something that's going to happen overnight or all at once, and though it seems most practical in theory vanguardism just results in a new aristocratic class replacing the old one. Seems pretty pointless to me.

And yet you couldn't name an effective alternative to the vanguard, curious

It was literally the first sentence of my post. Like I said, vanguardism always results in new masters. Generally not a fan of that.

And your answer is literally, "It'll just magically happen that people will awaken to the issues, instead of declining with the collapse of capitalism as ignorant of the reasons as they were in the beginning.
idealism never achieved anything.

Bullshit, I've actually been to Cuba and they were extremely hard workers

Vanguard recruits the absolute majority from the working class, from the people who woke up to the evils of capitalism.

All Czechoslovak presidents during the Socialist period have working class parents. Same for the heads of state of the German Democratic Republic. A quick glance over the wikipedia entries of heads of state in the eastern bloc indicates their working class background of the absolute majority of them.

As for China, Zhou Enlai had Mandarin background. But generally as a rule, the vanguard members of existing states have working class background. It is the pioneers and founding theoreticians who do not have working class background. Or the future wreckers and new bourgeoisie emerging from the failed party structure.

In conclusion, while one can complain about the inefficiencies of vanguard party form in the historical examples, various objections to not setting up information channels for direct democracy and governance that does not alienate but empowers the politically uninvolved working class, those are a fair criticism. And even one can criticize past socialist regimes for giving birth to the new aristocratic class, the new bourgeoisie arising from its inflexible structure that stifled progress in the eastern bloc mostly. When the communist party becomes alien to the working class, the new aristocratic class arises inside it and devours it from the inside.

Direct democracy and non-alienating work are first steps to prevent this from happening. People need to have the power to suppress any emergence of economic exploitation. People need to have a say on what to do with the economic surplus the modern industry produces. The people did not have this power in the eastern bloc, so this is one of many contribution to its disruption.

Given the observations above, could it be that vanguard is the method that working class uses to organize the nucleus of future broad participation? Your quick dismissal of a vanguard without considering the actual class composition of the vanguard tells for itself.

But it is true that near the end of socialism in Eastern Bloc, party members were mostly specialist workers, officials, well educated people who were starting to engage in first accumulation. But at the start, those kind of people were opposed to communist party and pushed into background, as the party was mostly working class. And over time it became less and less working class. So much for the historical evidence.

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I can tell you, personally, that if my pay was going to be the same regardless of my job performance, I wouldn't do jack shit.

If you actually read Marx's writings and speeches on this topic what becomes clear is that his political program, his idea of the working class taking power, was to smash the old government apparatus created by the bourgeoisie and to replace it with a dynamic and radical worker's democracy. These workers are not ruled from above nor do they create the possibility of such rule. The consolidation of a separate state apparatus above the people, even if it rules in their name, would be the basis for a counter-revolution in which society once again divides into separate classes.

Below is part of a report on Marx's speech to the International Workingmen's Association where he repeats what Engels said:

The last movement was the Commune, the greatest that had yet been made, and there could not be two opinions about it — the Commune was the conquest of the political power of the working classes.

marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/media/marx/71_10_15.htm

Here, in Critique of the Gotha Program, Marx criticizes socialists for only demanding what had already been achieved by democratic republics.

Even vulgar democracy, which sees the millennium in the democratic republic, and has no suspicion that it is precisely in this last form of state of bourgeois society that the class struggle has to be fought out to a conclusion — even it towers mountains above this kind of democratism, which keeps within the limits of what is permitted by the police and not permitted by logic.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm

And, finally, here is an extended discussion of the term by Hal Draper for those interested:
marxists.org/subject/marxmyths/hal-draper/article2.htm

The quotes below, the first by Marx and the last two by Engels, sum up what exactly the dictatorship of the proletariat was predicted to look like - a radical democracy of working people in which hierarchies & state apparatuses were largely abolished and replaced by elected public servants who earned the same amount as an ordinary worker. Lenin mostly repeated these ideas in State and Revolution. The first modern example of this kind of new political form was, for Marx and Engels, the Paris Commune. They accepted the need for a political state during the political transition. The state - a radical proletarian democracy - was meant to be organized against the former ruling classes, to expropriate their property, centralize means of production into a planned economy, and suppress possible counter-revolutionary movements.
…the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves…
marxists.org/history/international/iwma/documents/1864/rules.htm

The time of surprise attacks, of revolutions carried through by small conscious minorities at the head of unconscious masses, is past. Where it is a question of a complete transformation of the social organization, the masses themselves must also be in it, must themselves already have grasped what is at stake, what they are going in for [with body and soul]. The history of the last fifty years has taught us that.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/intro.htm

Against this transformation of the state and the organs of the state from servants of society into masters of society – an inevitable transformation in all previous states – the Commune made use of two infallible expedients. In this first place, it filled all posts – administrative, judicial, and educational – by election on the basis of universal suffrage of all concerned, with the right of the same electors to recall their delegate at any time. And in the second place, all officials, high or low, were paid only the wages received by other workers.
[…]
Look at the Paris Commune. That was the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/postscript.htm

/thread. Good job comrade.

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Are Japan and Singapore not capitalist?

Literally copied most of its economic and social structure from the USSR. As well as the massively effective public transport system.

The poor live like animals there.

It's like you have absolutely no idea what this board stands for.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_voucher
youtube.com/watch?v=kTl4b0w6mpk

Because people get bored in menial jobs?. Because you get interested in stuff by yourself, so you work in the field?. Money isnt the only motivator, plus in socialism there are pay grades, not 100x more, but 2x than ordinary worker pay is still more.