So under ML communism what's stopping the dictator from turning the entire country into a prison other than good will?

So under ML communism what's stopping the dictator from turning the entire country into a prison other than good will?

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nice false premises there

The people will be armed and the “leader” will not be a dictator. Look up what the dictatorship of the proletariat actually is, newfag

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because there is no "dictator" under marxism-leninism.
they had collective leadership which ensured that one individual did not have complete power of the governemnt, and most general secretaries like leonid brezhnev had less power than an american president.
what fucking reason would they have to make a "prison state" anyway? why do you think that there are just these super evil dictators who do everything possible to make their countrymen suffer? they aren't gaining anything from it besides public outrage and wasting resources on creating some kind of hell state.
it's like when people talk about kim jong un building fake cities for tourists and feeding his people food made of sawdust
literally what is he gaining? if everyone knows they're fake than what's the point in wasting resources on making fake shit when he could make real shit?

I read that one of kim's relatives traveled to japan to visit disneyland and complained he didn't like the regime.

yeah i also hear stories about how kim changed the north korean timezone because he "felt like it cuz muh crazy dictator" and that north koreans believe in unicorns. what a bunch of nuts huh?
it's literally propaganda being peddled to the masses to justify sanctions and american intervention in the korean peninsula because they need to give freedumz to the savage dictatorship
they pulled the same kind of shit with other socialist states and continue to do so, along with countries like libya were they justified an invasion because of "human rights abuse" or like iraq having "weapons of mass destruction".

even evil tyrant stalin was repeatedly defied by the party, like when he tried to resign three or four times but was voted back in every time

don't post again until you read what "dictatorship of the proletariat" actually means

The central commitee

Not even you believe that crap.

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Have you?

It's a historical fact.


Sure.

wew

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Marx: "DotP is a democracy where all people participate"
Lenin: "Actually it's a vanguard"
Stalin: "Actually it's just me"
Zig Forums ML clowns: "dude read marx lmao"

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The vanguard is Stalin who dictatorships the proletariat

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Marxist pussybois support the Global Elite who traffic children all over the world for profit.There are plenty of Islands, cities, and states where they are exploited. These people rape children and put a mind-sickness in all of them that propagates.

...

I don't need propaganda when I can just fucking read Marx, Lenin and Stalin.

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Then why don't you, if you can?

Ok, clown, I'm sure you're a marxist.

It’s like you want to be fucked over by porky

...

Lenin thought it should be a democracy as well, he just thought that democracy should take place within the party.

Dictatorships are good so long as you happen to have at least a decently good dictator (e.g. Joseph Stalin) and they pick a good successor (which JS unfortunately did not). Otherwise, you're going to be overrun by common idiots who don't know what to do.

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Tbh single party rule is a bad idea if you are trying to create a worker’s democracy, it can only stifle the democratic process. If you have a single party with genuine internal democracy then you might as well abolish it and make its internal democratic mechanisms universal to the state. If you abolish the party and have a no party state, then you might as well have a multi party state since people will arrange themselves into blocs and factions anyway.

The dictatorship of a class and worker’s party (the same thing) is different from the lack of democracy all-together.

Also

w-why didn't the evil soviets not let over parties run for office ;_;
it's almost like they wanted to preserve the revolution and not have some other party come and change shit around
how dare they let a communist party continue to run a socialist country the absolute gall

Stalin literately killed anyone who opposed him within the party.

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He also killed over 100 million chinkrainian kulaks…wtf

This actually comes from the novel Children of the Arbat (1987) by Anatoly Rybakov. In his later book The Novel of Memories (In Russian) Rybakov admitted that he had no sources for such a statement.
t. Wikiquote

Nice fake quote. There is nothing wrong with purges and the good of Stalin outweighs the bad

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Is it wrong that I love this fake quote? Reminds me a lot of that fake Che quote about revolutionaries being motivated solely by hatred, which is also badass.

The absolute state of greentexting MLs.

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This technology is becoming ubiquitous in top world militaries, demonstrating how genuinely effective this radio frequency energy can be at causing harm to humans and anything else.

US, Russian, and Chinese defense agencieshave been active in developing weapons that rely on the capability of this electromagnetic technology to create burning sensations on the skin, for crowd control. The waves are Millimetre waves, also used by the U.S. Army in crowd dispersal guns called Active Denial Systems: archive.fo/pNP0q

The fight over 5G is heating up at the community level, and awareness of this important issue is spreading fast. For more background on 5G, watch this video from Take Back Your Power, featuring Tom Wheeler, Former FCC Chairman and corporate lobbyist, who delivers a rather intimidating and presumptuous speech praising this new technology. The fight over 5G is heating up at the community level, though, and now is the time to speak out against it.

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It's kind of unironically true though, in a practical way

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unironically yes

READ.

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what? i've never seen that
would be doubly ironic if that were being passed about since im pretty sure Che at one point said revolutionaries being motivated by a strong feeling of love.

Liberal democracy is the rule of money and the rule of capitalists THROUGH the people themselves. It’s the gauge of maturity of the proletariat and nothing more and it can’t be more under capitalism. A one party state may not be desirable but in the short-term it may be the only solution. Either that or some sort of North Korea-like situation where other parties exist but the WPK has hegemony according to the constitution

read what, exactly? the truth about the ussr from the volkischer beobachter?

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While todays liberal democracy is dob
A rep.democracy with many socialist parties is not a bad idea
It whould help solve shitty ml powerstruggles

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Actually picking a successor prevents power struggles

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Or you could read from leftists who critical of them. Rosa had great critiques imo while still being aware of the necessities of revolution. This is coming from somebody who is fully supportive of Leninist praxis.

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Appointing successors is fundamentally at odds with the principles of worker’s democracy.

Having actual elections isn’t the same as a bunch of largely unaccountable politicians maneuvering around each other and trying to get each other marginalized, expelled from the party, or arrested.

So if Stalin picked some guy to follow him, instead of not, then that means that workers can't decide on their own issues anymore?

It means that the worker’s wouldn’t be picking the next leader.

Until Capitalism has been wiped from the face of the Earth you need a strong leader to combat Revisionism.

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That strategy to combatting revisionism has literally never worked, except maybe in the DPRK. The surest way to combat revisionism is to ensure that the workers hold the power as directly as is practical.

Workers aren't exactly well-read theorists who know how to manage a country though. They know how their factories and such work and how to optimize conditions in them maybe, but they aren't exactly statesmen. Politics should be left up to those in the know, a.k.a. the vanguard or the General Secretary. Also workers, like parliament, take too long to make fast decisions, which is especially useful in making choices during war and emergencies, which socialist states frequently have.

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Most people are brainlets who know hardly any theory, let alone politics or economics, and are best suited for managing their workplaces. Until communism comes and all these people are educated properly, it's going to stay this way.

Proles are a Reactionary Class so long as Capitalism exists.

Fascist detected

Correct.

You are not a socialist. You are explicitly calling for the creation of a hierarchical class structure that will be literally incapable of building communism. Read Marx.

Literally nobody has done what Marx said.

Actually they have, workers have repeatedly risen up against porkies, even in first world countries. What Marx failed to predict was the way in which capital would bend to accommodate their demands rather than just ignore them until it boiled over to revolution.

Theory is a guide to action not a dogma
WE MUST OBEY MARX AT THE PAIN OF DEATH

>Marx: DotP is a democracy
SOURCE
>where all people participate
SOURCE

The hierarchy is temporary though. You've got to admit – ordinary people don't know much on running a country, but instead being workers, they are pretty familiar with their workplaces. It's fragile, but no "fully democratic" socialist revolution has even come close to establishing sustainable socialism.

It's amazing how the "MLs aren't marxist and are barely leninst" stereotype becomes so true here on Zig Forums.

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So what's your point? That we must "work with what we've got" and therefore justify garbage like Stalin or Mao or even Deng?

If you need a source for the first claim you need to read Marx and Lenin

That's what they always say and it always fails. Maybe it's time we try something different since socialism is a fucking science and we must improve our mistakes and all instead of LARPing early 20th century shit?

You’re talking about creating an alienated class of rulers that would govern over the workers and then just hoping that they will voluntarily give up their power. That’s now how class societies work.

No, I mean with the Worker's having the MoP. Leninism is the Vanguard having the MoP.

Still waiting for that hot souce.

Sasuga ☭TANKIE☭s.

It failed because Stalin didn't pick someone who believed in what he did, hence there were a ton of leaders after him that went back on what he did and exerted way too much power on reforming, on top of his successors not being knowledgeable about things like the history and geography of Afghanistan, causing them to be involved in a pointless war with it.


It's not all too rare for a person who genuinely believes in socialism to be altruistic, hence it isn't all too ridiculous to think that they will devolve their positions over time, particularly as they become unnecessary in managing the nation which becomes more developed. People will eventually not recognize the legitimacy of a person with a ton of power if there's no need for it, and so there's this impetus too, that the state will wither away with its development in socialism.

So let's not have a system where we have to rely on one person having the foresight to pick the right successor.

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I hope you mean the party picking a succesor you worthless cultist

Well factions exist inside the party so i dont see why it would be that different than like everytime a ml leader died

Dude Stalin was like a god
And like good at like everything
So he can like be a great judge of character like

It was a simple mistake that could be rectified easily. Otherwise, how would you expect such a large body of people, who are largely uninformed, to make good and timely decisions?

t. didn't read marx

If tanki​es read Marx they'd think he was an anarchist.

If anarkiddi​es read they'd think

The quotes below, the first by Marx and the last two by Engels, sum up what exactly the dictatorship of the proletariat was predicted to look like - a radical democracy of working people in which hierarchies & state apparatuses were largely abolished and replaced by elected public servants who earned the same amount as an ordinary worker. Lenin mostly repeated these ideas in State and Revolution. The first modern example of this kind of new political form was, for Marx and Engels, the Paris Commune. They accepted the need for a political state during the political transition. The state - a radical proletarian democracy - was meant to be organized against the former ruling classes, to expropriate their property, centralize means of production into a planned economy, and suppress possible counter-revolutionary movements.

…the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves…
marxists.org/history/international/iwma/documents/1864/rules.htm

The time of surprise attacks, of revolutions carried through by small conscious minorities at the head of unconscious masses, is past. Where it is a question of a complete transformation of the social organization, the masses themselves must also be in it, must themselves already have grasped what is at stake, what they are going in for [with body and soul]. The history of the last fifty years has taught us that.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/intro.htm

Against this transformation of the state and the organs of the state from servants of society into masters of society – an inevitable transformation in all previous states – the Commune made use of two infallible expedients. In this first place, it filled all posts – administrative, judicial, and educational – by election on the basis of universal suffrage of all concerned, with the right of the same electors to recall their delegate at any time. And in the second place, all officials, high or low, were paid only the wages received by other workers.
[…]
Look at the Paris Commune. That was the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/postscript.htm


I agree with you. But I also think that pointing out what socialism really means is important.

Hmm…*dabs* This is quite Epic my gender-nonspecific comrade, you totally pwn'd that transphobic fascist Stalin oppa gangnam style

*eats some used tampons freegan-style*

Now, it is time for our anti-authoritarian non-hierarchical revolution

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This represents the struggle of fat diaper fetishist furries!

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By educating them.
How do you ensure a steady flow of benevolent dictators who rule back-to-back? How do you prevent opportunist elements from hijacking the revolution for their own gain if the revolution is not firmly in the hands of all the people?

Maybe it's just their bad luck, but I've yet to see any democratic communist uprisings that actually succeeded. The closest things we have are all ML:
Even then the reason why the surviving "ML" countries suck is because their leaders didn't know what to do, like Mao with his failed projects (there were a lot of externalities but still his praxis was fairly poor) and Ho Chi Minh with his """nationalist""" [[[socialism]]].

So there has already been bunch of answers to the op, why are people still posting?

The question was: where does Marx say that the "DotP is a democracy?" Your post does not answer that question. Thanks for your effort though. Feel free to make another attempt.

Point is, is that the centralization of power in the hands of strongmen is unstable but better than leaving it up to the proles at the start. However, yea, to educate the people and have them replace the General Secretaries is the most stable since you're not relying on one person. However, to educate an entire nation to the point of being as apt as someone like Stalin or whoever is quite a long route. Hopefully though, until then, the leader chooses wisely and fortunately to minimize the chain of custody.

Well the CNT is the closest the worlds gotten to a democratic form of socialism but they got massacred.
Had they'd been ML they might have won the war.

The USSR had significant elements of inner party democracy up until the disbanding if the left and right oppositions in 1927. The ban on factions was a mistake.

It kind of does. Marx explicitly endorsed the democratic system adopted by the Paris commune, and his statements about the revolution being the making of the masses themselves are pretty hard to interpret as anything other than a democracy. I’m really not sure how you could even entertain the possibility that a worker’s state would not be governed as directly as possible by the workers.

Bordigism is true socialism

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Can you read, nigger? The source that was provided on the Paris Commune was from Engels. Even there the term used is "democratic" – describing institutions. The statement that the revolution has democratic institutions is not the same as "The DotP [itself] is a democracy".

Here's Marx from the same work:
>The Commune made that catchword of bourgeois revolutions – cheap government – a reality by destroying the two greatest sources of expenditure: the standing army and state functionarism. Its very existence presupposed the non-existence of monarchy, which, in Europe at least, is the normal incumbrance and indispensable cloak of class rule. It supplied the republic with the basis of really democratic institutions. But neither cheap government nor the “true republic” was its ultimate aim; they were its mere concomitants.
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/ch05.htm

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How exactly can you have a dictatorship of the proletariat that isn’t governed by the proletariat either directly or through accountable representatives?

fukkin saved

idealist detected

hahahaha NO.

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ITT: Dictatorship of the Proletariat a single party of one or two dozen people

This. Not even Lenin thought that the vanguard party should be a bureaucratic dictatorship. On the contrary he wanted it to be a democracy, just a democracy that knew when to vote on something and when to delegate power to leaders when he situation called for decisive action.

You can't, but that's not the fucking topic here. Rule by the majority is still a form of oppression as clearly understood by the Marxist tradition. After the revolution the real movement that is communism invents new forms of collectives that strive to fit best the ushering in of the new stage of history, inevitably eclipsing the last remnants of democratic practice. This is central to the movement itself. This is why Marx consistently avoids calling the DotP "a democracy," and idiots who failed to reflect upon their bourgeois conditioning easily project notions not of their own onto communism.

That genius above really thinks that "the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves" means this is somehow Marx's lip service to democracy.

You, trash people of the left, feel the urge to stay politically correct so badly that you measure our (supposed) shared tradition through the eyes of the enemy, squirming to prove to them the falsity that we could share the same purpose, method, or notions as they do.


ITT: anarchist can't into books, thread no. 521


second pic very much related

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Hot take: general secretaries suck
MLs need a counsil of vunguards