I've been wanting to join a trotskyist organization for several years now but am conflicted over whether to join the SWP or the SEP.
On the one hand, the SEP's website wsws.org is excellent as a news organization and they seem well-organized. However, they seem a little disconnected from the working class and there also appears to be a kind of creepy personality cult based around David North.
The SWP on the other hand seems to be pretty authentically working class (part of its membership requires you to work in an industrial field) but it seems to suffer from the same cult-like tendency. Its break from the notion of permanent revolution seems pretty lame as well. Also, it's even less connected to the Fourth International than the ICFI.
I heavily identify with the goals of the Fourth International and trotskyism but am unsure if it's even worth it to try to join either of these shitty, underfunded fringe groups. Should I just join the IWW and forget American trotskyism?
So Don’t care about the retards itt While i am not an American (so i can’t talk about exp) The most important thing is to pick a party that represents you and your beliefs better You want a big and influential party? What type of trot are you? Etc… Wait for more American hours for better answers
It hasn't. It's fucking formidable that there are still "leftists" who unironically believe this anticommunist splitter movement from the 30s has any relevance to modern-day revolutionary politics.
It's pretty dumb to accuse Trotsky of "collaborating with US imperialists" when the USSR under Stalin was allied with the fucking USA.
Like how many layers of cognitive dissonance are you on, my dude?
Carter Johnson
There's a huge difference between national diplomacy and personal choices
Jackson Bell
Stalin was not allied. USSR was.
The difference is the one between the whole group making a treaty, and individual member making separate agreements. The former is politics, the latter is collaborationism.
Dylan Wright
And why trots got banned? Or are you saying that ideas of Trots were the same as the ones of ML?
Its a completely groundless accusation besides, as Trotsky was explicit about using the committee to polemicise against banning any political parties, not to 'join anti-leftist witch-hunts' which is entirely conjecture, and that the committee rescinded Trotsky's invitation when it became clear that his appearance would serve his interests and not theirs. The intended message this Zig Forumsyp-tier meme tries to carry ie. 'that trotsky was complicit in mccarthyism' relies on being completely ignorant of history. Its dishonest in the extreme.
Parker Murphy
Idk why the fuck should a so called COMMUNIST party not accept communist cause they dont agree with x country that would totaly lead to international communisn guys Also none of those parties started stalinist But anyway lets stop derailing the thread
Carson Powell
I find it hilarious that MLs think they’re more relevant than Trots in 2018.
Liam Morris
AFAIK, on international level, among radical Left, Trots are a minority. It is ML (and ML-derived; ex. Maoists) who dominate, and dominate overwhelmingly.
Only Anglophone nations have a noticeable Trot presence, and even there Trots aren't particularly effective at leading worker movements (they seem to be more active on campuses).
R.ojava is a Marxist Leninist revolution. The PKK are but one party of several and it is run by democratic centralism and is basically a advanced form of Leninism.
Also MLMs are supposedly advanced Leninism and are present in the form of the Naxalites.
Anti revisionist communist parties I.e Leninist ones are seeing a (small) resurgence in Europe right now.
Go out and get involved in the left, nobody trusts trots. They do nothing but march around and wave placards
Owen Parker
Wasn’t expecting PKK are ML and Naxalites are MLM, though.
For those who don’t know, MLM is a term used by American Ganzaloists who think the fucking Shining Path are the highest form of Marxist science.
Nicholas Wright
Even if for some reason you think Trotskyism is good surely you have to admit that ML is more "relevant". I mean, there are still ML states today even after the total btfoing that was the collapse of the Eastern Bloc.
R.ojava is a CIA revolution.
Naxals are MLMs, not sure why that surprises you.
Noah Perry
Most Naxalites and third world rebels hardly know who Marx is you fools(i am not calling them idiots) even most KKE voters dont know or care about marx, maybe they know Stalin but the surely dont know trotsky T. a person with actual communist politicians in the family
Yea dude China is both greatly marxist and leninist
Arent most european parties eurocom NOBODY gives a shit what side you support in ancient political intrigues of a dead states kid
In general the "the trots dont do revolutions" meme is retarded Most of them were either killed or supported there local revolutions(see Pablo) but its not there fault that the western world is so classcuked(see ml revolutions in the west)
R.ojava isn’t run by the PKK, the ruling party is the PYD. Also neither the PYD nor the PKK are ML, they’re DemCon.
Colton Thompson
I don’t think Trots are more relevant necessarily, you’re about as relevant as each other.
But at least Trots recognize this to some degree and the parties they count as political affiliates are in their internationals. There is no ML international, the closest thing you have is a fucking convention ML parties attend irregularly.
Brody Baker
While trots are stupid for spliting Internationals MLs are fucking stupid cause a shit ton of those parties call the other revisionists(KKE calls Juche shit frexmpl)
Josiah Green
Are you sure you aren't stalinist?
Anthony Smith
If I would join a Trotskyist org I would join the biggest in my country and only if there's no bigger "classical" marxist org.
Sebastian Anderson
Yes a CIA revolution supported by Bashar Al Assad… sure thing buddy
the ones that are not resurging yes Well yeh, because support is all parties have, and trots have none, from anyone. no it isn't we are here to talk about revolution
see the bit where I said "the pkk is but one party of several" read.
The PKK and PYD are nominally democratic confederalist but they operate on democratic centralism like any ML party, they just have a specific economic plan that is "democratic confederalist"
Talk to someone who has volunteered their
Caleb Harris
by this assessment most trot parties are also ML, they're just nominally trotskyist and have a specific economic plan that is 'leninist'
Noah Flores
Trotskyism is also strong in France and Latin America, far more than Marxism-Leninism at least.
