Say the Revolution does happen, what are Socialists going to do about all the Muslims, Evangelicals, Catholics, Orthodox etc who absolutely despise Socialists, what we believe and still believe in metaphysical reactionary ideologies that are inherently incompatible with Socialist thought? Even moderate western Muslims according to polling are closer to the far-right in thought than even the succdem center-left and the Evangelical movement has for decades been a thinly veiled Fascist movement.
Are they going to be uighur'ed like what China is doing now? How do you deal with the fact that there are going to be entire cultural groups of people who resist Socialism at their very core?
You dismantle reactionary religious institutions. That's what the Bolsheviks did, no? Also, I hope you know there's been Liberation Theology movements and not all religious people are opposed to communism.
every religion that is not dualistic/gnostic get banned and its adherent re-educated
Jonathan Gray
How do you do this without basically what would be considered "cultural genocide"?
All of which are extremely fringe, still incompatible with a materialist socialist ideology and doesn't stop the fact the vast majority of religious people and religious thought, are reactionary.
Most are though and even though there may be religious people not opposed to Socialist economics, the majority are still extremely reactionary towards Socialist social values.
Grayson Phillips
Libshits would be screeching about 100 gorrilions victims of communism anyway.
As for the Churches in general, you may do what every secular institution did in every historical period: force them to comply with national vector and persecute the dissidents.
Luis Gonzalez
It's almost like you're implying that China does something that isn't correct entirely in this situation.
Justin Cook
user, it's not as if you should really care about preserving things you yourself seem to think are backwards and reactionary you use force to suppress it if it really becomes an issue
Noah Mitchell
While I think this is true, I say things like this to other Socialists IRL (part of SAlt) and they look at me like I'm a genocidal nazi.
I actually largely agree with China's actions. But most Socialists I see on say Plebbit/Chapo/IRL SAlt see it as a form of Genocide it seems so I wonder how do you square that with the fact that the majority of Religious people will violently resist socialism and their cultures are extremely reactionary and incompatable with Socialist beliefs, in a way that doesn't resort to basically re-education?
I don't care, but it seems most other Socialists and leftists do. (though I'm of the opinion most "Socialists are Radlibs and don't actually understand how brutal a Revolution would actually be")
Dominic Walker
Well user, I think your trot buddies might simply be fools.
Persecuting religious practices does more harm than good and has proven to be somewhat ineffective, for example in the Soviet Union. Not to mention that too much of a crackdown can just result in a strengthening of faith. The average religious person is not the problem, the problem is combatting reactionary beliefs, practices and education. I would abolish religious education like the USSR did though. In general I think there should be a strict separation of state and religion and no real persecution of any religious groups unless there is a legitimate reason to think that this or that group is a reactionary fifth column
Henry Cruz
Kill Wypipo
Christopher James
The problem is most actual religious people have extremely reactionary beliefs and practices. Look at polling of "moderate liberal Muslims" in the UK, Australia, US etc and they're basically Brown Skinned Alt-rightists and those are the "moderates", also look at the Evangelical movement in the US, totally fuelled by extreme nationalism, Capitalism worship and white supremacy. How do you deal with such people without resorting to mass re-education.
Caleb Gray
Simply create a new religion
Dominic Nelson
And they all do Blue Lives Matter, vote trump because of scary blacks, spout "It's Okay to be White" get all their news from Fox, cry non-stop about "immigration", engaged in mass white flight to suburbia.
They're driven ideologically by white anxiety and supremacy. Also adopting brown and Asian kids is a lib thing to do, not Conservative.
Brandon Diaz
All Lefty American organisations and established politicians are controlled opposition, and many West Euro as well, so no surprise.
Historically, there are 3 ways to do it: Forcefully eradicate that reactionary traits; Leave them be, corrupt and intimidate their leaders, and exploit their resources and themselves as cheap labour; Purge them.
It is obvious that first option is best in every way, at least longterm.
Ayden Fisher
Mass re-education is not wholly out of the question, though perhaps in ways not as coercive as you may initially think. I don’t think the way forward is forcibly closing down churches and other places of worship but instead confronting these reactionary beliefs in public through debate, education and propaganda. Any American socialist revolution would need a cultural revolution concurrently to both combat reactionary ideology and work at eliminating the social roots (especially that which makes religion “the opium of people”)
Hunter Walker
Death.
Jose Lewis
Come on, you know the Chapo lot are performative succ dems who like to use the language of revolution and name drop actual socialists while not really being much commited to anything beyond "uh i dunno we'll have a robot utopia while we eat cheetos". They want the outcome of a revolution without thinking about the actions that would actually be needed to achieve one, so they are fundamentally reformist in spite of all their claims to the contrary.
Brayden Martin
South America is a good example of what happens if you basically don't liquidate the right and the religious.
Eliminating and combatting reaction and religion is not genocide; I don’t see why anyone would conflate the two if you worded it correctly (not edgily) and drew comparisons between the role of the church in past socialist revolutions
Tyler Davis
Re-education works. The ones that fight against socialism can die in a hail of bullets, but if you have a whole culture that is passively reactionary then what we do is abolish that expression of the culture and teach them otherwise. Honestly what regular old center-left progressives are doing will work in the long run. They are making Muslims more and more moderate. With the luxury of a centrally planned economy we can use it to accelerate that process by deliberately promoting our own version of Islam that's stripped of everything reactionary. Just the same as what's been happening to Christianity in various places. Let people follow a religion but tailor religions so that they uphold socialism.
Julian Long
So in other words if liberation theology is fringe, then we make it not fringe.
Levi Wood
This.
Sebastian Perry
with Stalin as an avatar of Mithra
Gavin Brooks
Here's some personal opinions:
Tackling material conditions and making the general population fed and housed will do wonders for religious extremism. Think about how the socialists in the middle east laughed at extremists back in the day.
Religion isn't incompatible with socialism, and it shouldn't be. Socialism describes workers owning the means of production, and while there is thought on how religion affects these processes, a religious worker is still a worker. Attacking religion is a dumb, unstrategic choice.
In any case, people may become less religious as conditions improve anyway. How ridiculous will an extremist look to you if you are well fed and happy?
Anthony Gonzalez
Targeting and "Eliminating" a culture is considered a form of genocide/Ethnic cleansing even if they're aren't deaths.
Ryder Parker
So be it then. If re-educating violent extremists and nutjobs is genocide it would still need to be done
Thomas Long
...
Tyler Thompson
What will happen if the revolution happens right now
thats it probably. people seem apathetic to religion now
Thomas Ross
also when you have shitty politicians in charge like Allende
Aiden Rodriguez
Honestly most current western "Socialists" are going to get slaughtered like pigs by the Religious if a Revolution actually occurred. Huge, HUGE portions of Leftists would unironically try side with the Islamists against the far-right, then get stabbed in the back for not realising that Muslims hate "Degenerates" more than even the western far-right does. Also you have the fact that Evangelicals have been hording guns and explosives and been training for "rapture" for literally decades.
Pretty much every socialist revolution in the Middle East as well. Just look at Iran and how Socialists got liquidated by their muslim "allies" the second Socialists support was no longer needed.
Benjamin Morgan
If you are against socialism and you act against it you will be put down regardless of your religious affiliation. I know a lot of you western chauvinist/jacobin LARPer types really want to have anti-religious pogroms but I really don't see how they would be necessary.
Suppressing any and all religion wouldnt be necessary, but in regions where reactionary fundamentalism dominates "punish them for being anti-socialist when the y're being anti-socialist and leave religion out of it" wont really cut it. like the first post in the thread says, you dismantle [i]reactionary[/i] religious institutions.
Landon Rogers
oh, right, thats not how formatting works here.
Oliver Evans
I think for some reason because the left sees Muslims voting for Democrats, Labour etc, they think Muslims are left wing. This isn't actually true, on issue to issue, Muslims are probably the most solidly far-right conservative group in the country, also despite their tiny population percentage, make up even more hate crime attacks than the political far-right targeting especially Jews and LGBT people. What young leftists don't remember is that before 9/11, Muslims used to be a solid, loyal hard-right voting bloc, they would vote Conservative/Republican etc down the line. It was with 9/11 and the right targeting Muslims, that they switched to voting to Labour and Dems purely out of self preservation. In every way though beyond voting directly in national elections, they're still the reactionary conservatives that would support the most reactionary elements of right wing politics though you can see this when they vote on plebiscites and proposition.
In the US before 9/11, over 80% of Muslims voted Republican, 9% Democrat.
Jace Rivera
Many people forget that we have actual real world experience with this already. So in other words, help the elements that support us, suppress the elements that don't. Suppressing all religion in general will just serve to drive the elements that might support us away from us.
You have the government kill, imprison, or simply heavily fine and penalize all dissidents. Simple as that.
Josiah Russell
Socialists believe religion is an opiate that is a result of feudal capitalist systems. With people finding new meaning in their lives, and religions without direct or indirect state funding, religions will melt away.
Lucas Hall
Don't you think the mission of Zig Forums to the extent that we have one is to challenge and overcome the weakness and stupidity of the modern left?
Kayden Gutierrez
Unironically churches should be treated like every other private organization: forced to comply with egalitarian principles (no rules barring female church officials, for example), and tolerated only so long as they don't interfere with the average proletarian or become a breeding ground for counter-revolutionaries
Lucas Roberts
We just keep an eye on it. Religion can be good glue, but it can't have too much power.
Anthony Carter
The communists tried to destroy the catholic church by infiltrating the priesthood with thousands of marxists and destroying the religion from within
That didn't work out because conservative protestant sects just replaced it
