Converting Christians to communism or converting Communist to Christianity?
btw I not implying that you spend every waking moment trying to convert people I'm just curious about how non communist Christians take to Communist ideology? and vice versa.
I originally just wanted to throw this question out to christcoms but twas narrow minded of me also I couldnt be fucked changing anything but the title and wasn't sure what Jewish communist are called Trotskyist? lel jk
Zig Forums is a board for scientific socialism.
This is a qualitative enquiry
I would assume christianity with all the equality n' shit.
Religious/mystical socialism is a requirement for communism but not socialism.
Tbh spreading the social gospel is pretty easy, well in my experience anyways.
Could you please elaborate
But why's this the case? Cultural hegemony of certain religions? Or, Anti communist propaganda machine?
It's easier to convert Communists to be Christian than vice versa.
Proof: Malenkov. We literally saved a guy in Stalin's inner circle lmfao.
Social Gospel is based and redpilled.
Well I'm from Britain so Anglicanism has always been linked with socialism: we have a domestic concept of "Jerusalem" which is a mixture of british nationalism, social justice, christian morality, and agrarianism. Linking that to Socialism is pretty damn easy. Also I think a part of it is that the CoE has always done a lot of social work: for 2 years our welfare system ran through the church itself. Add to that the fact that all of the Anglican bishops literally have seats reserved for them in the legislature, they mostly talk about social conditions.
For evidence, I would like to cite that the Archbishop of Canterbury spoke at the TUC conference basically calling for the abolition of payday lenders and precarious employment. youtu.be
Beautiful.
KEK.
T. Losif Stalin
The general Muslim view on Communism, from what I've seen, is literally same as the American Liberal take. But my being a K*rd might have something to do with that, so take this with a hint of salt.
I’m Catholic, not willing to attach the ChristCom label to myself. But I’m a Marxist as well.
So my approach to Catholicism and Communism is that Capitalism is inherently anti-Christian by its nature, in fact I would argue that it’s Satanic in the classic sense, the devil is great at masquerading slavery as freedom: he presents sin as the “release” from taboos and fetters, when in truth it’s a trap that keeps you perpetually sinning; in that similar sense, Capitalism replicates itself under the appearance of “freedom” while keeping people bound to the system. There are things Communism and Catholicism can take from each other, and I think a true synthesis of both systems would create something strong.
I agree with you on economic freedom but I hope you aren't spooked about social freedom.
PS: Commie antipope when?
Well let’s talk about that social freedom. The most common critique is the Church’s stance on homosexuality, well I think that even that has evolved over time. The church today argues that homosexuality is a sin, but homosexuals themselves are not “evil” by any means. Historically homosexuality was not given the same attention it was today, in fact the church acknowledged the existence of homosexuality and basically regarded it as a sin of minor importance that could be redeemed just like any other: with confession and fasting as penance.
Point being that I personally believe that the importance given to these social restraints is in part pushed by Protestants and in whole, by the bourgeoisie eager in creating more pointless social flashpoints to distract people from capitalism.
In regards to my personal views, I will confess that I am a sinner, my sin is something I will have to work on, but I believe that Capitalism has created a sect of zealots who respond to every sin inappropriately. I believe that we must work for communism, and that ultimately our interests are more aligned than opposed.
All I ask, is for a bit of tolerance under a secular government. My dream is for all the sons of Abraham to unite in opposition to Capital, and for the occasional prejudice to be tolerated by the occasional Christian.
If you ain't cool with homos you ain't cool with us. You'll be given a first class ticket to the gulag you spooked cis scum.
he said he's a sinner = he sucks dick for free
I am arguing not for any laws, merely trying to hold a consistently Christian world view. As for the “not with us” comment, Capitalism is an evil that surpasses the occasional bigotry, destroy Capitalism and you destroy the worst of the bigotry. I imagine that any gay prole would realize that the root of his oppression is in capitalism, and that in spite of our differences in views, we are brothers and we are fighting for the same cause.
I think I might be slightly bisexual, but it’s not exactly something I act on. I honestly want to spend my life with someone who cares about me rather than indulge in sexual liberation tbh
Obviously Christian>Communist since going from a dialectical materialist to a spook literally requires a regression in thinking and logic and rides on the idea of abandoning a materialist look at the Jews during the Ancient time period and how they examined life from a highly uneducated populous to one where you take their words as facts because their book told you so. Anyway the two aren't mutually exclusive however Communism would be the end of Religion.
The historical dialectic literally and unironically comes from Christianity.
same and i'm not even gay
And it gets destroyed by it's own creation when one takes a dialectical materialist look at the religions beginnings and sees the writings of Ancient peoples religious texts are simply a spawn of their conditions and a change in conditions ie Alexander the Great/Persians assimilate or Genocide all the Jews would destroy Christianity long before Jesus.
Protestantism is right-wing and capitalist by nature.
The frugal Puritans of New England were anti-fun workaholics who punished their kids for merely smiling.
Protestants are known for their exclusiveness. They believe in segregation of the races, generations, and genders, 'cause "individualism." "Gotta pull yourself up by the bootstraps." Yet,they talk about "coming together in the Body of Christ."
They also believe in conquest, seeing how they purged brown skinned natives off their motherlands, sanctioning attacks against brown people, and domestically blacklisting secularists, pagans, and non-capitalists, bc "this is a Christian nation."
They have no interest in charity, science or the arts, yet they appeal to these things when discussing the "awesomeness of God's design."
HERE I COME CONSTANTINOPLE
HERE I COME CONSTANTINOPLE
I AM COMING CONSTANTINOPLE
HERE I COME
I would argue that the stubborness of the Jewish people in their survival bucks historical trends, but that's just me.
Neither am I, friendo. What I was saying (went from mobile to my computer) was that even if I do have some slight bisexual tendencies, what motivates me is finding a woman who honestly seems to care about me, who has a personality that meshes well with mine, and who's passionate about something–almost anything that doesn't immediately relate to the self.
Communism would not necessarily be the end of religion, in fact religious communists such as myself might see it as leading to a renaissance of religious thought.
While I'm naturally inclined against Protestantism, I would say that it isn't necessarily right wing and capitalist by nature. Several of the early Christian pilgrims to America were actually remarkably socialist in their character.
iyo is there a specific conflict between Islamic faith and communism that acts as a barrier?
Based. Also, of the catholics that you know how many would hold the same beliefs, or at least would be sympathetic to communism?
But would this suggest that someone who holds agnostic or atheist views would be sympathetic towards communism?
How so ?
Bazed and redpilled. u owned that dumb papist liberal epbin style.
Sadly not many, though the answer is more complex. I'd not really consider the liberal Catholics I know to be Catholics in any meaningful sense, just liberals who might borrow an aesthetic.
A lot of conservative Catholics seem to hold ideals that would be closer to what Communists would find to be agreeing: an emphasis on social justice, mistrust of the government and business in general, desire to help the poor, etc. Problem is their image of Communism is anti-Catholic militias during the Spanish Civil War, plus it's pretty easy for them to fall into a reactionary aesthetic.
A great deal of traditionalist, conservative Catholics want the church to *be* something, quite a few confessed that they want it to be a cause, something worth dying for, rather than a mundane part of everyday life. Sadly a few have adopted some Zig Forums-tier "we need another Crusade" meme in hopes that the church would exercise some strength and call people to sacrifice themselves for a "higher" cause. In my opinion, if we do need another crusade, it should be a crusade against Capitalism, with a new holy order of chivalric Knights being the first to truly deserve the title in their battle against the bourgeoisie.
The idea that religion would dissipate under communism rests on two beliefs: that it exists merely to "explain the unexplainable" and as a temporary reprieve of peoples' suffering. It's normal to hear some atheists argue that in luxurious first world nations, people have "better things to do with their free time than go to church." If we think about it, after all, why would someone who has enough time to do *anything* go to a mass?
Well to the charge that God can only exist in the shadows and is dispelled as soon as we shine the light of science upon something, I argue that there's nothing inherently disproving of God in learning the movement of atoms, the atheist may see such a thing and ask "Well where's God?" But the fact is no one really knows what to look for when looking for God, however it's almost as if some of these internet atheists think they should be able to get a high-powered telescope, look up at the stars, and see an old man floating on a cloud.
The bible never existed as a scientific manual, it was never meant to instruct people in the material functioning of the world and be used as the building block of all later human innovation, it existed first and foremost as a spiritual text, not merely a guide on good behavior but a way of understanding the world and man's place within it. Some may sneer that the concept of humans being born with original sin or as "inherently evil" is a pessimistic, harsh, and cruel understanding of things, yet with that understanding comes a certain kind of humility and forgiveness. The call of Catholicism is ultimately to forgive and redeem ourselves and those around us. communism would solve a great deal of social ills, but I don't think this is any rebuke of "original sin", rather that man's "evil" in the true Augustinian sense, is a deficiency in our willingness to do good, it's why communism is something that has to be fought for rather than evolved into.
Now, in regards to existing merely to solve physical suffering and that, were work to be abolished, people would be less religious, to this I argue that our peasant ancestors in medieval Europe actually had numerous days where they didn't need to work. Some have said they only had to work half the year in fact, however their religious beliefs didn't falter with a great deal of time off, if anything they were stronger than ever.
I imagine the constant, repetitive grind of Capitalism played its part in crushing mass attendance, after all why would anyone go to mass on their one Sunday off after 5 days of mentally exhausting or physically backbreaking labor?
Communism would open the world up, it would reduce the time we're working, people would be free to travel and explore. The religious caste, the priests, the churches, now free from the struggle for resources and material power, would be more than capable of debating religious matters and producing some truly great thinkers. It would not surprise me, I think, if we saw a whole host of new saints and miracles once mankind's been freed from capitalism.
I personally believe there isn't a single block between communism and Islam, disregarding the unfortunate truth of how Hadith are sometimes used to justify reactionary cultural practices. But that's more a problem with people using religion as a means, that sort of thing will be squeezed out of society.
There’s nothing dialectical about the fall from grace. There was no past that was better than today.
This was one of the few good things that came from Christianity. The Protestant work ethic accelerated the fall of feudalism and the creation of capitalism which made socialism possible.
This shit happened before Protestantism. Saxons did it to the Brittons, Romans did it to the Gauls, Spain and Portugal did it to Central and South America Slavs did it to the Uralic peoples.
Like all religion, it’s incompatible with the enlightenment, which is where Socialism came form.
No, the enlightenment is where capitalism came from. All enlightenment thinkers were dumbass libtards.
wow so this is real socialism
what about buddhacom?
The book has nothing to do with Christianity. The author was one, but back then if you weren’t you were hanged.
Pfffft yeah sure.
No it's not a theological discussion but it certainly was spooked af and can in no way be considered socialist unless you think having a slave labor force is Actually Existing Socialism.
That doesn't mean the enlightenment wasn't socialist.
They wanted equal rights, correct? Is that social mobility not key to socialism?
Life, Liberty, and The pursuit of happiness is what everybody on this cursed site strives for.
Lies for the weak. Typical libtard philosophy. By Life, Locke meant a life of wagecucking. By Liberty, Locke meant the liberty to start your own business and to exploit others. By the Pursuit of Happiness, Locke meant the pursuit of accumulating more and more property.
Anyone who thinks they can square the circle to tie the bullshit ideological justifications of Capitalism to the goal of Socialism is welcome to try but they are objectively wrong.
Social mobility has nothing to do with socialism, because there is no where to move up to.
Did someone say ==ISLAMIC SOCIALISM?==
It calls out aristocracy, and how if it weren’t for those lazy bastard everyone else would have a much higher standard of living. Also it advocates direct democracy and classless society.
That isn’t what those words originally meant. Besides Locke was the tip of the Iceberg. Rousseau was /ourguy/ and he was the most radical of the enlightenment figures.
lol, also the state supported Islamist ideology is what created the terrorist that over though him.
Yes, but Protestants literally believe in an earthly authoritarian theocracy being part of God's plan. Go on some of these Christian websites and read some of the blogs and recommended reads there. They believe that Anglo-America was chosen by God specifically to lead the world, that blacks are genetically cursed, that women who don't marry or shit out babies are prone to psychosis and premature aging, and that school prayer alone keeps school shooters/teen pregnancies/druggies at bay. And they believe that communism, socialism, and any other left-wing ideology is automatically liberal, but always dismiss the existence of the alt-right.
Ironically, they whine about ivory tower professors and their out-of-touch liberal tactics, yet most religious-right pundits are from elite colleges always pictured in suit-and-ties and always argue with fellow brethren in Christ over what God meant in "book of (x), verse (y)", while accusing working-class youths of laziness for being poor just bc they're agnostics.
Is that why the Catholic empire called native peoples savages, and sought to end their ways of life? Is that why Pope Joan was struck from historical record? Is that why they torched people for using actual medicine, dooming Europe to suffer the heaviest losses from disease?
That's the Catholics you're thinking of.
FUCKING IDOL WORSHIPPERS
GET THE FUCK OFF MY BOARD
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
The Catholic Church was vital part of feudalism and therefore early colonialism. What's protestantism's excuse?
Thanks for admitting that you're nothing but a bunch of fascist imperialists to the very core.
Based. It's either that or we drop all pretense of spiritual matters being at all relevant to socialists
It is a given that threads on these topics on this board are never without fierce debate/derailment. In a way, it has demonstrated that anti-religious Communist will outright denounce any religious notion of communism, with a plethora of historical examples of atrocities and reactionsryisms. I guess, what I would like to reiterate is; are people who are devout towards their god who are not communist, as hostile towards communism? Or are there examples of commonality that one could say make certain notions of religion lean towards a sympathetic view of a Communist society.
Now, this has been addressed in a few post, specifically Catholicismcom and Islamicsoc sorry Buddhismtrot, a pic semi related is not an answer I'm looking for, also see parenti on Buddhism. As either a fairly transparent gateway with internal support or a blanket neoliberal stance that is possibly a separation of church and societal governance I'm guessing?
This leads me to my next line of questioning.
As any communist is aware; as any devoutee is aware, there are many branches, groups, separatist, other demoninations, and SPLITTERS!! within any group. How is this dealt within the church regarding your not-so-mainstream views on communism? Does your views make you want to split from non Communist thiest? From a metaphorical point: to branch off, is to also start from somewhere together. I know that for a few colleagues of mine that had split in their younger years returning to Marx was a good unifier, however some with good reason, are entrenched on specifics that abstractly contradict Marx, others are too focussed on fullyautomatedgayspacecommunismtoday that should have happened yesterday. is this just unchangeable group dynamics or is there possiblities to return back to the group. À la Ship of Theseus metaphor.
Americans and Muslims are a lost cause, religion is irrelevant in the 21st century.
Kill all Christcucks
Deafitist
atheist-com.
*Defeatist
fml
You know without Feudalism and Colonialism we wouldn't have developed into the civilization we are today right? Without Feudalism we would not have had the growth and prosperity urban areas experienced to colonize the world, and without the colonization of the world we would not have got the resources to industrialize and generate and automate capital to next move on to socialism.
Funny how people here supposedly care so much for the people of the third world, when it is these same people who make up the vast majority of the worldwide religious population
...
It's not, it's just a fact that our current material conditions come from a bloody history.
The only sad thing about that religion map is how prevalent Yaldabaoth demon-worship is compared to pagan religion.
Daily reminder to your feet to be jubilant. Made by abolitionist gang.
I wish I was a gnostic. Sounds fun.
Some Gnostics think Satan was a prophet of the Monad, so your point is mute.
Thats an utter caricature. Scottish kirk and bee england puritans had notoriously strong social cohesion and communitarian impulses that governed behavior. How the fuck you think they enforced such tough moral strictures? Also its precisely these communitarian values (i speculate) that fostered their success in capitalism because kin groups and comminity ties were essential information and commercial networks for exploiting business opportunities. But this isnt even exclusivey protestant as it was shares by jews and other minority communities
Also both protestant and catholic reformations were responsible for setting up the first primitive welfare and charity systems
they're also the worst posters on here
Despite what some "based christcoms" tell you, you can't be a catholic and a socialist, or communist. Considering how close the slimy fucks are to orthodox and anglicans, I consider them just as bad.
Decree of the Holy Office in 1949
Q.1 Utrum licitum sit, partibus communistarum nomen dare vel eisdem favorem praestare.
[By chance is it licit to give name or to make favors to communist parties?]
R. Negative: Communismum enim est materialisticus et antichristianus; communistarum autem duces, etsi verbis quandoque profitentur se religionem non oppugnare, se tamen, sive doctrina sive actione, Deo veraeque religioni et Ecclesia Christi sere infensos esse ostendunt.
Q.2 Utrum licitum sit edere, propagare vel legere libros, periodica, diaria vel folia, qual doctrine vel actioni communistarum patrocinantur, vel in eis scribere.
[By chance is it licit to publish, promulgate or read books, journals or leaflets which defend the action or the communist doctrine, or to write for them?]
R. Negative: Prohibentur enim ipso iure
Q.3 Utrum Christifideles, qui actus, de quibus in n.1 et 2, scienter et libere posuerint, ad sacramenta admitti possint.
[Can Christians who perform the acts mentioned on n.1 and 2 be admitted to the sacraments?]
R. Negative, secundum ordinaria principia de sacramentis denegandis iis, Qui non sunt dispositi
Q.4 Utrum Christifideles, Qui communistarum doctrinam materialisticam et anti Christianam profitentur, et in primis, Qui eam defendunt vel propagant, ipso facto, tamquan apostatae a fide catholica, incurrant in excommunicationem speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservatam.
[If Christians declare openly the materialist and antichristian doctrine of the communists, and, mainly, if they defend it or promumulgate it, “ipso facto”, do they incur in excommunication ("speciali modo") reserved to the Apostolic See?]
R. Affirmative
All that gibberjaber basically means skydaddy won't let you in the heavenly ballpit if you will. Letter stamped by resident pedo-porky pope.
Read my above posts fags. Organized religion is banditry.
Wrong. Socialism's lineage stretches to before Marx.
Correct. The materialist doctrine of Marx and his successors cannot be upheld along with devotion to Christ.
Reformed Islam would be the best synthesis of religion and communism. Islam has the least anthropomorphic god, a reformed Islam purified of its superstitions, of mandatory pilgrimage, with an emphasis on unicity of god (en.wikipedia.org
So islam minus the Quran then?
“Happy is he who repays the infidel for what they have done to us – he who seizes their infants and dashes them against the rocks.” – Surah 34:12
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” – Surah 135:27
“A Wife, must submit to her husband as to Allah.” – Surah 5:22
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.” – Surah 21: 7-8
If only you knew how painful it is. But yeah, can be pretty fun.
The Decree of The Holy Office came after Communist revolutions which were decidedly anti-christian in nature, and anti-Catholic in particular (such as the red terror in Spain), but I don't think it points to a completely irreparable and hostile disposition towards Catholicism and Communism.
I'm Catholic, I'm well aware of the Church's hostile attitude towards Socialism in the past. Yet much in the same way that it eventually came to an accord with liberal democracies, I believe that Catholicism can come to an accord with Socialism and even Communism. This is a relationship where I believe both sides committed grave faults against one another. Reconciliation and mutual understanding is possible.