considering the fact that the CPUSA was repeatedly infiltrated by CIA and FBI moles (one for over 40 years), what can be done to prevent govt moles (or at least reduce their adverse effects) from entering a vanguard party?
Considering the fact that the CPUSA was repeatedly infiltrated by CIA and FBI...
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Make party leaders more easily replaceable, both in case one is assassinated (as with the Black Panthers) or in case they start acting contrary to the will and interests of the members of the party.
What about the detection of moles? They can still be a danger if they are informing
Here's a list written up by an anarchist collective on the topic, though it's more directed at identifying provocateurs than informants.
Read WITBD and LWC:ID.
can we get a quick rundown on what it says about this or atleast quote the part that talks of it directly?
Very, VERY problematic. Let's unpack this.
fuck off /pol/ack
Get lost, /pol/tard.
Lenin goes pretty in depth about how a properly structured party can deal with infiltrators. In LWC, he points out that if a party has enough ideological and theoretical discipline, and demands real professional revolutionary work of its members, infiltrators will actually be forced to do productive revolutionary work. However, it also helps expose them. Most infiltrators and COINTELPRO attempt to promote incorrect theory. You can oust people who refuse to admit they are full of shit and kill two birds with one stone.
does foundations of leninism ever mention this topic?
Not sure. Don't think it can cover as much as Lenin does in two books though.
I like how you're calling me a /pol/turd when a good portion of left-twitter would completely unrionically react exactly how I did in my satirical post.
he points out that if a party has enough ideological and theoretical discipline, and demands real professional revolutionary work of its members, infiltrators will actually be forced to do productive revolutionary work
This is exactly it right here. If your leftist org does no real work then it is will be extremely easy to infiltrate. If your org is mainly used as a social ladder club then it will be infiltrated with zero resistance and there is nothing you can do about it.
Do not confuse the actual left with illiterate liberals larping as communists
If your leftist org does no real work then it is will be extremely easy to infiltrate. If your org is mainly used as a social ladder club then it will be infiltrated with zero resistance and there is nothing you can do about it.
If your org meets that criteria, chances are the "infiltrators" are in leadership.
What happens with infiltrators if you do expose them?
Making them vanish? Raiding them?
Unironically democracy. It's a lot harder for a government agency to infiltrate an org if they have to win the support of other members. If an organization is more cult-like and/or authoritarian then it is easier for them to subvert.
There will always be informants, whether for the state, fascists, capital, or even shitty leftists. It's a bullet you have to bite when you recruit. A good security policy minimizes the risk an informant can do.
You really can't do anything to keep them out and if you kick them out, the feds get mad and will retaliate. But half the game is that they want to make everyone too scared to do anything or recruit. Maintain morale and designate a fall guy.
Making them vanish?
Seems alright by me
Could I ask us to think we could leave them dangling out there for a while? You know, like a message? We could put some snarky sign up there hanging with them.
It could read something like that one letter from Tito to Stalin: "Stop sending people to spy on us! We've already captured five of them, one of them with a bug and another with a bomb. If you don't stop sending infiltrators, we'll call ours on Wall Street, and won't have to call again."
Pic not realted
i suppose it'd be worth mentioning that a concentrated enough solution of enough lye (caustic soda, potassium hydroxide) will eventually liquefy all parts of a human body which is normally balanced against slight acidity to the point it can be dumped into a lake or river and totally disperse.
This. Obsessing over cops infiltrating your party will only make you look weird to newcomers. A better policy is to look at what kind of behaviour moles engage in and ban these behaviours.
I also think that the Mafia (bare with me) have the right idea here: requiring members, at least members with access to potential leadership to actually do something revolutionary (read: Illegal) could be beneficial if implemented correctly. To have a system that requires at least the key members to have sustainable theory and show real commitment would go a long way in weeding out COINTELPRO type attempts. Of course this presents a bunch of problems of its own, but I think a tight structuring that places actual costs and requirements on potential members (tailored to be anti-FBI) would be a good step.
This. No cop would actually kill someone, for example, so that's one way. However, not many non-cops would do that either…
Don’t be too predictable in the methods you employ, or the targets you choose, or the times and places you meet to discuss things. Don’t be too visible in the public aspects of the struggle in which you do your most serious direct action: keep your name off mailing lists and out of the media, perhaps avoid association with aboveground organizations and campaigns entirely. If you’re involved in really serious clandestine activities with a few comrades, you may want to limit your interactions in public, if not avoid each other altogether. Federal agents can easily get access to the phone numbers dialed from your phone, and will use such lists to establish connections between individuals; the same goes for your email, and the books you check out from libraries, and especially social networking sites like Myspace.
and especially social networking sites like Myspace.
I don't see why it matters. You literally can't avoid having informants in your party, and your party shouldn't be committing to anything ridiculous or violent like terrorist attacks anyways. Leftist organizations would continue to benefit from doing more direct action, assisting groups of people in organizing parallel groups like tenant's unions or worker co-ops, etc. which I don't see how having useless informants really interferes. Unless they sabotage you, in which case just do what you would do anyways and divest them of responsibilities for being ineffective, or kick them out of your organization at worst if you have proof they're actively fucking up your brake light replacement program or whatever.
Make people bring their children to political marches, cops would never bring their kids to marches.
keep a lookout for celebrities that are secretly commie scum.
Individual terrorism of that sort should be avoided anyway. It's massively ineffective and brings no real change other than the provision of a pretext for further repression of the left.
Move to Cuba you commie POS.
move to cuba
now subject to american foreign policy
Yeah no thanks.
Move to Haiti since you live capitalism so much.
Historically speaking, the French Communist Party used to make extensive background checks (working class families only) about new members, this proved efficient. I don't know about other historical parties.
Though there would be no point in going all paranoid like the CIA with their recruits (polygraphs and such).
It’s inevitable that any radical org will get infiltrated if it seriously begins to pick up traction. This is basically guaranteed if you look at the historical record. I think the point is to be able to have a vigilant vetting process that also doesn’t get into the ridiculous, honestly narcissistic paranoia which I’ve seen in tons of American anarchists.
anonymous decentralized consensus like black bloc
small local groups of people you know
Successful agents can be hard to spot. But most infiltrators are not trained law enforcement officers. Most are criminals who have been cut a deal if they simply go to meetings and listen, or if they go to meetings and actions and disrupt.
Is this true? I always had two stereotypical images of infiltrators in my mind: clueless cops who hate the "bur-goys" and push people to do petty crimes, and mastermind FBI agents who rise to leadership by browbeating people over the "vulgarization of the dialectic" and constantly push for another split.
This. Obsessing over cops infiltrating your party will only make you look weird to newcomers.
That is NOT the message to take away from Lenin. They were very serious about secrecy and keeping out the cops. They just understood that they could also mitigate the consequences of infiltrators they couldn't catch.
I also think that the Mafia (bare with me) have the right idea here: requiring members, at least members with access to potential leadership to actually do something revolutionary (read: Illegal) could be beneficial if implemented correctly.
The problem here is that the Mafia and organized crime are overwhelmingly supported by and bribing the CIA/cops/FBI etc. We can't learn much from them.
No cop would actually kill someone
lmao are you retarded
No cop would actually kill someone
Undercover cops can do pretty much anything as long as it helps them infiltrate "dangerous" groups. They've even seduced activists and made families with them all while working as informants. Cops will always be an issue. The goal should be to keep them from positions of power or from influencing the org.
Off the top of my head
1. All above-ground organizing will be infiltrated so its best that no one have knowledge of any underground operations.
2. Rank and file members should be prepared/trained to adopt responsibilities that leadership/those of a higher rank would normally do in case of compromises.
3. Do not accuse anyone of being a spook without definite proof because you make everyone in the group paranoid and the more dogmatic members might kill innocent party members and CONINTPRO will really have something to bring your ass down with.
Watch this interview ( hooktube.com
and mastermind FBI agents who rise to leadership by browbeating people over the "vulgarization of the dialectic" and constantly push for another split.
Pushing for splits is a clear sign of being a fed, and I stand by this point. Any hardline sectarianism has been fed supported in every western country in the past 70 years.
the more dogmatic members might kill innocent party members
Calm down there japanese red army
I'm thinking more of the American Indian Movement and what happened to Anna Mae Aquash when she was bad jacketed.
An exuberant 20-year-old with short, dyed-blue hair, Tan, whose legal name is June Davies and who identifies as gender non-binary
Tan, a manager at Baja Fresh in Lake Oswego
In June, Tan met Portland police Sgt. Jeff Niiya at a small protest. Niiya frequently patrols protests. They started chatting, and Niiya gave Tan his business card.
It took only a day for Tan to become an informant.
tl;dr: Thirsty fatass manager snitches on anti-racist activists in pathetic attempt at getting cop dick.
Dude if you make killing someone and bringing their ear part of your group's initiation ceremony a cop infiltrator will absolutely do it.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like the only proper course of action for finding proof that someone is an infiltrator is to make them vanish and tell nobody. Don't even tell your group, just make them completely totally disappear.
Trying to expose them just opens up an opportunity for them to attempt to split your group up over the accusation, to make a counterclaim with "proof" that you were really the informant, pull people to their side, sow doubt between the group between people who were agreeing with a spy even after they're gone, and even if they do get ejected, it's an opportunity/excuse for the cops or feds to pick them up and decide to just SWAT your entire group on bullshit charges because now you've shown that you can outmaneuver their infiltration attempt and now they don't know what you're doing.
Having the person just vanish forever and pretending they were one of your own group who either just left or were picked up and vanned by the feds helps inure your group against the real possibility of taking losses or leaves, and never opens up the opportunity for them to make a last stand at breaking your group up. There's still the possibility that the cops are going to try to SWAT you but you now at least have the opportunity to try to relocate without the cops being informed as to where.
I genuinely can not think of a single benefit that comes from making an infiltrator's status public.
the only proper course of action for finding proof that someone is an infiltrator is to make them vanish and tell nobody.
Uhhhhhh what are we implying here pal
The more I think about it, the more it seems like the only proper course of action for finding proof that someone is an infiltrator is to make them vanish and tell nobody.
How exactly would this prove anything? I understand the other benefits you mention but you still wouldn't know if they were an infiltrator.
You realize this person is basically advocating that we kill people that we just SUSPECT of being infiltrators right?
primary aim of FBI is to "neutralize" promising organizers / groups. Look for the people who try to divide and cause schisms and bring in drama.
Take it from William S Burroughs:
We all know the type.
Anything they have anything to do with,
No matter how good it sounds,
Turns into a disaster.
Do not offer sympathy to the mentally ill.
Tell them firmly:
I am not paid to listen to this drivel.
You are a terminal boob.>>2843134
Well I'm not endorsing the idea, I'm just asking for clarification.
if you suspect someone of being a snitch, switch up their roles so that they are never told any important information & so that they are constantly kept busy doing work that needs to be done.
Remember that convictions are based on evidence, not heresy from CI.
No evidence = no prison time.
No prison time = keep on truckin' champ.
Besides a CI will probably want you to commit a spree killing or bombing or whatever. If someone tries to urge you into doing something clearly as retarded as that, encourage them that they do it themselves and lead by example. Seriously. What's the old joke, "3 people can keep a secret", but for real the feds don't give a shit if some people decide to strike or do some graffiti. They are looking to nab "terrorists" so they can justify counter-terror programs. The more underground an operation is, the more decentralized it should be. It's just that simple. Egg on a suspected snitch to do illegal things for the group, use the system against itself for shits and giggles.
It’s just weird that you’re asking these practical questions and not denouncing it as obviously ridiculous.
What do you think the FBI or police will do if the person who's snitching on you disappears? Remember, they invest money in assets with the intention of throwing you and your friends in prison. They know who you and your friends are. it is considered "witness tampering" and probably a bucketload of other felonies.
This is basically a LARP anyway; I highly doubt that guy is a member of a clandestine cell that assassinates his own members.
Best defence against infliltration is theory. The chances of cadre that read and write theory being cointel are super slim.
Suck a dick.
if someone survives a year of book club, let them into the gang
I like this. It filters out dumbasses and cops.
I offered no way of TELLING if someone is an infiltrator, just what to do with them once you find out they are.
yeah i'm really worried about the possibility of committing witness tampering when i'm talking about making people vanish to never be seen again.