/r/ChapoTrapHouse getting banned reminded me how fishhook theory is the dumbest...

Aaron Gutierrez
Aaron Gutierrez

/r/ChapoTrapHouse getting banned reminded me how fishhook theory is the dumbest Reddit meme, another instance of fascism being hollowed out and wildly applied to anything and everything the Redditor hates. Closely related is the "liberals will always side with fascism" meme, which anyone familiar with the Second World War or Popular Front governments would find questionable. Why does there exist this compulsive need to identify the primary antagonist of our time as "fascists", to constantly present that we're always refighting the Spanish Civil War?

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Other urls found in this thread:

nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html
reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/bpjtt9/update

Owen Morales
Owen Morales

nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html
My research suggests that across Europe and North America, centrists are the least supportive of democracy, the least committed to its institutions and the most supportive of authoritarianism.

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Dominic Gray
Dominic Gray

which anyone familiar with the Second World War or Popular Front governments would find questionable
I am familiar with those things. it's not questionable at all.
Why does there exist this compulsive need to identify the primary antagonist of our time as "fascists", to constantly present that we're always refighting the Spanish Civil War?
Because regardless of how many times liberals come out in support of fascism, no matter how much they protect class society, no matter how much people repeat trivially true "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds", open fascists are still a minority, while liberals had hegemony over most of the world for decades and make up half of the population. Not a lot of people can handle the fact that all of them (liberals, conservatives, social democrats on) top of fascists and monarchists must be destroyed. It's "a few bad apples", but applied to all reactionaries. To keep them is poison, but to destroy is a tremendous loss.

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Hudson Carter
Hudson Carter

I am familiar with those things. it's not questionable at all.
Okay. WWII: the liberal and communist powers gang up and destroy the fascist ones, root and branch. The Western allies could easily have accepted the Axis's terms of surrender and turned them loose on the Soviet Union, but didn't. How does this not complicate the narrative that liberals instinctively side with fascists?
Because regardless of how many times liberals come out in support of fascism
How many times has this happened, compared to how many times liberals have supported socialists/communists as a lesser evil to fascism? Even De Gaulle cooperated with the PCF against Vichy, for example.

Isaiah Price
Isaiah Price

Popular Fronts fell apart. In Italy, liberals, conservatives and social democrats were in coalition with fascists. For years, Western powers snubbed Soviet Union's attempts at containing Nazis. Hitler was the darling of the entire right-wing of the West and was openly praised. Massive pro-German sentiment in the colonies and China. Having tunnel vision on Spain where liberals were pissed at the church and monarchy is a failure on your part in mistaking the exception for the rule.

Brayden Diaz
Brayden Diaz

The fact that the study shows the far-right being more supportive of elections and liberal institutions than centrists should tell you something is awry. People who self-identify as "centrists", which is what that study measures, include a small minority of ideologically conscious Vox readers and a huge grab-bag of every random person who doesn't think seriously and coherently about politics and can't locate themselves on a political spectrum. They give the dumb, simple answer to everything, which makes them look relatively "authoritarian" because they don't care about what they learned in civics.

Charles Adams
Charles Adams

Some comments on fish-hook theory.

1. It refers mostly to Dave Rubin types who do a lot of gesturing about being moderates while constantly pushing reactionary bullshit.

2. There's nothing "centrist" about declaring yourself to be the voice of moderation. It's just a more violent way to impose your viewpoint on other people. Not only is your view self-evidently correct, any view that differs too much from it is "extreme" and thus dangerous.

3. If you want to get over this kind of arrogance you have to understand yourself as extreme and dangerous, which is the left-wing position. The only way to be a genuine centrist is to be a radical.

4. The "center" and the far-right share one vital thing in common: They demand you to conform to the ruling social order.

Dylan Reyes
Dylan Reyes

they're probably not going to get banned and this is all just a huge meme

Joseph Long
Joseph Long

/thread

Cameron Hernandez
Cameron Hernandez

we've got bad news for you m8

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Alexander Myers
Alexander Myers

In Germany and Spain liberals and social democrats formed popular fronts against fascism, and this position was endorsed by the Soviet government. The US government actively took the side of the allies with economic aid even before joining the war, and when it had no real reason to get involved. Many liberals do side with fascists, but many others do not. The statement that there is no such thing as genuine liberal anti-fascism is objectively untrue, even if liberals are not the most reliable of anti-fascist allies.

Leo Reyes
Leo Reyes

Closely related is the "liberals will always side with fascism" meme, which anyone familiar with the Second World War or Popular Front governments would find questionable.
These "popular fronts" only showed up after the Third Reich had turned against the liberal nations. Before that point, most liberal countries refused to work with the USSR and were basically aiding Nazi Germany in what they thought would be an inevitable attack on the Soviet Union, until they were blindsided by the Nazis and Soviets signing a non-aggression pact and trade deal, and the Nazis started marching west. Working with leftists only became an option for the liberal powers after they started getting eaten by the fascists, and ended pretty much at the same time the war did.

Jason Wilson
Jason Wilson

they're just liberalism anyways

Aaron Gomez
Aaron Gomez

The statement that there is no such thing as genuine liberal anti-fascism is objectively untrue
If by "genuine" you mean liberals flapping their gums about how much they don't like fascists, sure. If you mean actually doing something about it, then no. It's only after Holocaust came to light that nobody wanted to be seen next to fascists or Hitler. And even afterwards, liberal condemnation of fascism is centered around the wars, the racism and genocide, so any group of fascists that watches its mouths can slip on by.

Jace Johnson
Jace Johnson

I think it's also because a lot of "far right" mislabel themselves as such, you see a lot of this shit on /pol/: "I used to be a lefty but then Anti said she didn't like muh video games". A lot of people's economic views simply follow their social views. If you explained Marxism, without using Marxist terms, to coal miners they'd be radically left, but [identity] politics makes strange bed fellows.

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Jack Campbell
Jack Campbell

*Anita

Josiah Murphy
Josiah Murphy

Bullshit. Former Marxist here. The problem with Marxism is that it's mindless. You take a false dichotomy: Capitalist bad/worker good, you then spin that the "haves" are the cause of all the ills in the world and that everything is "rigged" by them and for their interests - and worse you offer zero proof that but take it as a given and then offer the "solution" to this is to murder tens of millions people.

It's extremist black and white thinking, us vs them. The only difference between you and Hitler is that he replaced the term "capitalist" with "international Jew."

Isaac Cook
Isaac Cook

muh fascism!

What is this, 1930? Fascism arose out of a unique set of circumstances that no longer exist. There's no USSR lurking on the fringes of Europe with millions of union/communist sympathisers.

Assuming we're talking about actual fascism not Vox-tier "Here's why Alabama's new abortion law is the ugly face of a resurgent American fascism" liberal hysterics

Alexander Davis
Alexander Davis

What you describe is a typically non-Marxist position. Classes are defined by economic relations, not cultural values.

Jayden Miller
Jayden Miller

Lol ok bud. Marxism is not about character morals.

Jose Cooper
Jose Cooper

Former Marxist here
And by "former Marxist", I mean that I used to have a less pleasant view of rich people which is what I figure Marxism probably is, I clearly haven't read any actual Marxist theory

you then spin that the "haves" are the cause of all the ills in the world and that everything is "rigged" by them and for their interests - and worse you offer zero proof
This was literally pointed out by capitalist thinkers before the modern ideological apparatus was set up which just cheerleads the liberal status quo.

It is in the age of shepherds, in the second period of society, that the inequality of fortune first begins to take place, and introduces among men a degree of authority and subordination which could not possibly exist before. It thereby introduces some degree of that civil government which is indispensably necessary for its own preservation: and it seems to do this naturally, and even independent of the consideration of that necessity. The consideration of that necessity comes no doubt afterwards to contribute very much to maintain and secure that authority and subordination. The rich, in particular, are necessarily interested to support that order of things which can alone secure them in the possession of their own advantages. Men of inferior wealth combine to defend those of superior wealth in the possession of their property, in order that men of superior wealth may combine to defend them in the possession of theirs. All the inferior shepherds and herdsmen feel that the security of their own herds and flocks depends upon the security of those of the great shepherd or herdsman; that the maintenance of their lesser authority depends upon that of his greater authority, and that upon their subordination to him depends his power of keeping their inferiors in subordination to them. They constitute a sort of little nobility, who feel themselves interested to defend the property and to support the authority of their own little sovereign in order that he may be able to defend their property and to support their authority. Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.
t. Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations

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Aaron Roberts
Aaron Roberts

Implying the capitalist is a Saturday morning villain mastermind and not just another slave of the system.

This is what happens when you don't read theory.

Jeremiah Baker
Jeremiah Baker

Former Marxist here.
No you're not. To be a Marxist you have to uphold Marxist theory, and in order to uphold Marxist theory you have to understand it. To understand it, you have to at least have read it which I bet you haven't done.

What you are is a former liberal or a (conscious) lier.

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Jayden Miller
Jayden Miller

I don't think he's being honest here.
I think he's a /pol/tard pulling the "Hello, fellow leftists" card.

Jayden Taylor
Jayden Taylor

pol pretends their former milquetoast center-left socdem politics is marxism episode #1488

Mason Flores
Mason Flores

You take a false dichotomy: Capitalist bad/worker good,
Bullshit. You're either deeply confused or a liar. You don't even need to discuss "capitalist bad" at all.

Sebastian Wilson
Sebastian Wilson

Everything you're descirbing is contradicted by Marx himself.

READ

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Anthony Gomez
Anthony Gomez

Saturday morning villain mastermind
Sometimes the CIA can act like it though.

David Cooper
David Cooper

Implying the capitalist isn't a Saturday morning villain mastermind

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Hunter Russell
Hunter Russell

/r/ChapoTrapHouse getting banned
I would like to know more. How'd this happen?

Colton Brown
Colton Brown

They have like 100k subscribers compared to this place that gets 1000 visitors at most, even if like 90k of them are socdems or libs that still means 10k lefties.
Read theory

Samuel Cox
Samuel Cox

It didn't. 4 moderators were removed for 'encouraging violence', because leddit will remove basically anything that jeopardizes their profits. I really don't know what people expected.

Jordan Flores
Jordan Flores

capitalist bad/worker good
thinking these are the only two classes Marx writes about
thinking Marx condemns capitalism on moral grounds
thinking the "solution" Marx wrote was mass murder
Marxism is black and white
<what are petty bourgeois/peasant alliances with the proletarian
thinking Marx complained the system was "rigged"
Marx's writings have zero proof
former """""Marxist""""
Wew

Daniel Lopez
Daniel Lopez

I really don't know what people expected.
Amerilards think liberals = communists and are baffled by (fake edgelord) leftists getting banned on any public site, since it contradicts their victim complex worldviews.

Jack Wilson
Jack Wilson

Private Space Companies
This is more of a result of people with fucktones of money trying to recreate their childhood fantasy of sic-fi that they read when growing up, than profit seeking.

Joseph Nelson
Joseph Nelson

I don't think so, there's way more raw minerals in space then there are here. Once you escape Earth's gravitational pull space mining becomes economical in theory.
Space mining has been seriously contemplated way before these Silicon Valley titans became famous.

Caleb Gutierrez
Caleb Gutierrez

Blue Origin’s total budget is less than 1% of Bezo’s net worth, if this was some galaxy brain scheme to control the mining Industry, he would be investing more in this.

Ryan Robinson
Ryan Robinson

Doesn't change that it's science fiction at this point. To use Zizek's usual analogy, being jealous of your wife is pathological even if she's really cheating on you.

Josiah Barnes
Josiah Barnes

Yeah but the government has been selling off it's technology under Trump. I'm not sure about space in particular, but tons of research that was previously either in the public trust, or was about to be added, has been re privatized.
It's poetic to think that these billionaires are so staggeringly myopic with hubris that they literally to make goofy science fiction reality, but it's just not reality.

Justin Allen
Justin Allen

See
You are the one high on your own ideological supply. You think because you can see the meta dialectics of capitalism that all it's scheming is open to you. It's not, and there's more going on that I never even see leftist touch.
You all been spooked by Alex Jones into avoiding analysis that is socially unacceptable.

Oliver Carter
Oliver Carter

I don't believe there will be a space mining industry in the near future though. My point is that it's beside the point. Whether that nonsense is viable or not has no bearing on whether Silicon Valley's space exploration business is based on *sniff* pure ideology. It obviously is. You can see it in the way they act. Why else would Elon Musk have to be such a memelord?

Wyatt Turner
Wyatt Turner

liberals will always side with fascism
That isn't the meme though, the meme is that liberals will always break for fascism if the alternative is socialism, or 'scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds' both of which are true.
Popular fronts existed to fight fascism as a mutual threat to both liberals and socialists, not to bring socialism. Liberals obviously, tautologically, prefer liberalism to fascism. The question is what they order when Liberalism isn't on the menu of history.

Josiah Gutierrez
Josiah Gutierrez

A big part of raising funds, and getting proles to accept privatized space is public relations. There's a long game among porkies to privatize absolutely everything and this is a part of it. This is only ideological in that's it's a continuance of being cucked to capital. Not that Bezos and Musk watched "Star Wars" one too many times.

William Perry
William Perry

Yeah but the government has been selling off it's technology under Trump. I'm not sure about space in particular, but tons of research that was previously either in the public trust, or was about to be added, has been re privatized.
Wait What?

Christian Taylor
Christian Taylor

Yeah, I'll try to dig up some articles on it. Off the top of my head a bunch of research that went into a lot of new drugs has been privatized even though the research was publicly funded and should have gone into the public trust.

Luke Harris
Luke Harris

Thought you meant that laboratories were being privatized, still incredibly shit though.

Michael Morales
Michael Morales

Popular fronts existed to fight fascism as a mutual threat to both liberals and socialists, not to bring socialism.
Correction. This might have been the intention, but the effects were always the same: postponing or outright destroying the only movement that could eradicate the very socio-economic conditions that bring about fascism in the first place, capitalism.

An alliance with the smiley face side of capitalism against evil_emoji_capitalism.gif is still an unprincipled one if you are not a traitor like your ilk.

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Joshua Bailey
Joshua Bailey

fascists and nazis weren't recruited and then stuffed back into governments of the countries Western allies "liberated"
USSR disappeared, therefore fascists did too
Shut the fuck up, goddamn.

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Joshua Wilson
Joshua Wilson

lmao i've been looking for that image forever

Jordan Lewis
Jordan Lewis

Chapo hasn’t been banned yet, nor will it be banned as long as the moderation team starts doing their jobs properly and no leftist mass shooters pop up. The libertard Reddit admins don’t give a shit unless something draws negative, advertiser-unfriendly attention towards the site.

Evan Lee
Evan Lee

Plebbit badmins only ban jailbait subreddits because it became too unpopular an issue
the only time they proactively enforce their own rules is against a (somewhat) leftist sub
r/LSC replaced its socialist mods with SuccDems and will now allow liberals and Democrats
they jus don't curr! dey only curr bout profits!
the situation is the same on Wikipedia
liberals let other right-wingers run hogwild and only occasionally get them to tone it down, when it's too embarrassing
always take even mildest of leftists to task
suddenly grow a spine and have principles

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Leo Diaz
Leo Diaz

Reddit meme

The first time I ever saw fish hook theory was here. It's a humorous counter to horseshoe theory, which makes fun of "centrists." Present day "centrism" is frequently just a front which often gives way to or disguises fascist talking points. That's the joke.

That and "fuck liberals." But, yes, there is some underlying truth to this, but afaik it was never intended to be fully serious.

Liam Murphy
Liam Murphy

The first time I ever saw fish hook theory was here.
I think redit stole our memes

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Landon Robinson
Landon Robinson

AMA

t. chapo reddit NKVD officer

Jayden Ramirez
Jayden Ramirez

DUDE SOCIALISM OR BARBARISM LMAO
Fuck off you hysteric cunt, actual fascism is dead, if you can somehow draw a direct line between edgy /pol/tards carving swastikas into desks and a second Holocaust you need to up your antipsychotics dosage.

Or join the other suburban wine mums #Resisting on twatter

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Eli Rogers
Eli Rogers

Jordan Peterson, pls go

Dominic Gonzalez
Dominic Gonzalez

literally point out that focusing on the rhetoric and Holocaust lets actual fascists through
dude Holocaust and neonazi LARPers LMAO!
Holocaust isn't even the primary feature of fascism or the primary reason why fascism is bad, and you'd know this if you weren't a fucking liberal cretin.

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Connor Nguyen
Connor Nguyen

literally point out that focusing on the rhetoric and Holocaust lets actual fascists through
The fuck does this even mean you hysteric ☭TANKIE☭.
"We're gonna get fascism except it's not going to resemble actual fascism but it will still be fascism because….uh…."

Jason Young
Jason Young

You forget the part where workers get absolutely shit on, while bourgeoisie have their profits protected. You know, the actual reason communists struggle, and get opposed. Remember? Class struggle? Worker ownership? Doesn't ring a bell?

Mussolini could have not gassed Libyans, invaded Ethiopia, tried to genocide Yugoslavs and dangling him upside down would still be the right thing to do.

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Eli Flores
Eli Flores

this lol

Jaxson Bell
Jaxson Bell

reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/bpjtt9/update

Chapofags are on suicide watch

Brody Taylor
Brody Taylor

suicide watch
I think you misspelled "homicide". Sounds like it's a hill they're perfectly willing to die on. I guess we'll see.

Ryan Long
Ryan Long

Real weekly earnings after taxes, the most important stat, increases under nazi regime

I'm guessing you're not very literate in economic statistics…. This is not a very good argument against Nazism here

Lucas Ramirez
Lucas Ramirez

everything is "rigged" by them and for their interests
You wanna know how I know you were never a marxist? Not even capitalists work for their own interest but for capital itself

Easton Johnson
Easton Johnson

Might want to look again at how those wages even at their peak compared to before and how much they made up a percent of the national income. Also, if the hourly wages are going down but the weekly wage increases marginally, that isn't usually a good thing.

Hunter Price
Hunter Price

lel cucko cuck house isn't even quarantined

Brayden Smith
Brayden Smith

it's pretty obvious they're just going to get off; no timetable, no quarantine, only asking to remove mods not force adding new ones. The list of banned subs is entirely right wing. They're going through the song and dance of their process with them to legitimize the process. It's gotten so bad that the process is no longer considered legitimate and no longer successfully pacifies the cattle which is the whole point of a bureaucratic veneer. So far no subs placed under it have not been banned.

Austin Russell
Austin Russell

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but far left subs have been banned in the past.

Justin Brooks
Justin Brooks

HAHAHAHA
get fucked faggots, now join the 40%

Dylan Green
Dylan Green

reminder that 40% of chapocels live with their parents
and 100% of them are trannies

Colton Sanders
Colton Sanders

the 40%
What’s this a reference to?

Angel Hughes
Angel Hughes

What’s this violence they’re getting banned for?

Aaron Thomas
Aaron Thomas

I always find this popular front fetishism preposterous and idealistic. The popular front idea totally collapsed and failed in Spain, resulting in the total squelching of the Left for decades if not indefinitely. The left never really recovered from the extermination of the Socialist movements. The Fascists did succeed. And where coalitions elsewhere formed the ultimate result was Communists merely being used by Socdems or Left Libs to institute welfarism, after which the Left was sidelined or persecuted

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

I guess he thinks all lefties are trans

Josiah Lopez
Josiah Lopez

40% people are trans? Who is the stoned fucker who produced that number?

Jason Perry
Jason Perry

[arguments not found]

Brody James
Brody James

the only reason this place exist(ed)s is so people can fuck around at work or w/e.
At least they know.

Zachary King
Zachary King

The popular front idea totally collapsed and failed in Spain, resulting in the total squelching of the Left for decades if not indefinitely.
[sound of communists butchering anarchists in the background]

Matthew Lee
Matthew Lee

Implying

Charles Cook
Charles Cook

Are you arguing for or against me? Is left unity the same thing as popular front? I thought it was more left libs/ soccdems and communist parties allying each other, not anarchists. But even so the communists lost in spain basically because the Liberals couldn't even get funding and materiel from Liberal France US or Britain while communists could not consistently get Stalin to supply them enough

Angel Turner
Angel Turner

They kept joking about murdering slave masters is what people said on r/stupidpol.

Jason Martin
Jason Martin

Capitalist bad/worker good, you then spin that the "haves" are the cause of all the ills in the world and that everything is "rigged" by them and for their interests - and worse you offer zero proof that but take it as a given and then offer the "solution" to this is to murder tens of millions people.
Imagine calling yourself a former marxist but never having read nor understood Marx.