The left's Irrational Hatred of China

That's geopolitical posturing. I don't see how there is any incentive for China to do this except that they want to put a stop to the DPRK provoking the USA more. Of course I don't agree with it, but that's different than, let's say, the US putting up sanctions against Russia because American oligarchs want to tap into the European energy market.

wew, you fucking retard.
the op did call China socialist - I was answering that you fucking mong. Working conditions and wages improved tremendously in the 30 years after WWII, wow let's all support fucking US of A
oh there is state ownership of economy in the UK (until the 70s)? WOW REAL EXISTING SOCIALISM TAKE ME ATTLEE
the fucking cheek of you marcyite radsocdems
you're so blinded by the red flags you can't see class collaboration when it's held up to your nose

How are public enterprises class collaborationist? How his it collaborationist if the state holds the most shares in a company? That's technically expropriation. Class collaboration, like Fordism or fascism looks very different, because property relation remain intact there. Lenin makes a clear difference as well between socialist ownership and state capitalist ownership - China has both currently existing in their state sector of their economy. This distorted view that you present is the usual Trotskyte deveation from a rational Marxist analysis. Everything is bad, mimimi, feels > reals.

No, because the USA clearly remained a capitalist country throughout its existence.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
after this declaration an enormous amount of businessmen joined the party, you know, people from the Capitalist class? the one thats interest is inherently opposed to the interests of the Labouring class?
but on the other hand there were red flags so it was ok and not class collaboration at all. praise Xi

How does that change anything I've said? Make an argument any time. You haven't actually proven anything besides being emotional. How do these businessmen exercise power over the CPCh?

CPC is now a party that represents the capitalist class and the working class
that makes it class collaborationist
do you disagree?

I don't have an irrational hatred of China. I don't even necessarily think the path China chose after the death of Mao was wrong, but it was not the path of socialism. China is a (technocratic, authoritarian) capitalist state.

China has

>Bullshit, there is a significant difference. China has the highest state quota after Cuba and the DPRK (I believe it's over 50%).
First of all, gimme a source on that. Second, state ownership is not necessarily socialist ownership. You could have the state own 95% of the economy and still have a bourgeois ruling class exploit the labour of the working classes. In South Korea for example the state used to own a large chunk of the economy and use some sort of central planning to achieve fast economic growth, but that doesn't mean South Korea was in any way "more socialist" than other capitalist states.

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something like leverage in recent trade negotiations?

I do, because you'd have to provide evidence how the CPCh is now bourgeois in character, bourgeois right does not dominate economic decisions of the CPCh. There were millionaires in the CPSU under Stalin.

Increased from what though? Incredible poverty? It's not much of an achievement going up from mass starvation.

>There were millionaires in the CPSU under Stalin.
source

how would one go about proving this? is the explosion of labour discontent under their rule enough? policies that support capital over labour?
so much for dekulakisation

are you a Chinese PSYOP?
China's a state capitalist now dictatorship that virtue signals Marx to trick its populace into believing their nation has ideals

are you defining bougeoisie in a cultural meaning?
because financially every member of the CCP is a billionaire with exceptionally large real estate and stock portfolios

China is a dictatorship of the proletariat. The proletarian billionaires will implement socialism.

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Obvious fake news is obvious.

show me the lie

hmmmmmm

Fuck Chinese "socialism". Solidarity with the workers who are crushed beneath the iron boot of capital.

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That photo is staged.

There capitalist, but the virtue single to Marx a bit do Tankies like them. They aren’t socialist, and way more authoritarian than Burgerland. If there suppression of the Moist Communist Party of China is anything to go by, they must not be celebrated.

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This is Wang Jianlin: CPC member, delegate to the National People's Congress, vice-chair of the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, and vice-chair of member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. But he is better known though as the billionaire founder of the Dalian Wanda Group, China's largest real estate developer, and one of the wealthiest people in China.

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I don't know about that. The "Land of the Free" has been turning into a sci-fi dystopia over the last couple decades. For real, watch some twentieth century American sci-fi, and the corporate nightmare worlds that they imagined look freakishly prescient in retrospect. America is the image of old school comic book corporate totalitarianism.

Or we can say hi to Zong Qiinghou, another CPC delegate to the NPC. And founder of Hangzhou Wahaha Group, China's largest beverage producer, which has made him a billionaire.

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This is the exact same argument that neolibs give to justify capitalism. """improving""" standards of living doesn't justify Chinese capitalism with socialism characteristics.

got proof of that?

How long until those yellow stars become golden arches?

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revisionists btfo

Why do we even bother debating someone delusional and mentally ill enough to type something like this?
Fuck off and catch AIDS

< there are concentration camps in west china for the muslim minority
< people get disappeared constantly
< hyperauthoritarian's wet dream of social credit + total surveillance
< worker conditions and pollution
< chinese billionaires, entirely empty cities
yeah dude so marxist, what leaders

Thoughts Dengists? qz.com/1270109/chinas-communist-party-and-xi-jinping-are-celebrating-the-200th-birthday-of-karl-marx-with-a-vengeance/

I'm not even gonna bother, you're just gonna say my arguments aren't arguments, or are irrational or bourgois decadence or something. Fuck it.

oh actually wait nvm I think I can clean up this thread a bit with this one simple pic

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You sure taught him.

Source.

damn exporting products for american money is the most communist thing i can think of innit

Nobody ever claimed China is communist.

their government does

From responses ITT it looks like the subject of the thread was on point.

Oh really? Source your claim.

"Communists" bash China for two reasons

1. Liberalism

2. Edginess

There party is run by literal billionaires.

Fucking lol at totalitarian regime-supporting ML's thinking people don't support China to be edgy. This has to be bait, right?

reuters.com/article/us-germany-marx-china/no-regrets-xi-says-marxism-still-totally-correct-for-china-idUSKBN1I50ET?il=0

This shit should speak for itself, but you know some idiot will reply saying that it's real evidence that Xi is on the path to communism.

WRONG. It is in no way socialist.
Where?
No
.t Lived there for half a year.

LMAO

benis

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China has "advanced" to the kind of capitalism that would make early industrial capitalissts blush for its brutality and perniciousness.

America couping China would be a progressive regime change at this point.

The party is not run by billionaires, it is exercising a dictatorship over the billionaires. The existence of billionaires is a byproduct of the developing of the productive forces. The Chinese leadership understands Marxism and dialectical materialism unlike you.

America attempting a coup would be good since it would harden anti-American sentiment within China which would help to accelerate their development of counter-hegemony, which they (unlike Russia) are somewhat lazy about doing.

Of course, this is why these billionaires are allowed access to leadership positions within the party and state, giving the bourgeoisie access to the machinery of state and party power is how you exercise a dictatorship over them.

sawse
m.gulfnews.com/news/asia/china/120-000-muslim-uighurs-held-in-chinese-re-education-camps-report-1.2162878
uyghuramerican.org/article/what-it-s-live-surveillance-state.html
theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/16/china-eliminating-civil-society-by-targeting-human-rights-activists-report
uh and the president declared himself the emperor for life. wow, worker revolution right there good ol 100 percent peasant-lead maoist communism.

Neck yourselves

Faggot shill traitor

Wut?

The social credit system isn't rationing. It's not to better distribute resources, but rather to exclude anyone who challenges the status quo from resources and infrastructure.

Tell me again why you're not a political leader.

Why on earth would I, or anyone on this board for that matter, support the repression of labor activists and other anti-government leftists? This scheme is just the latest form of bourgeois repression against the chinese proletariat.

Next thing you'll tell me the anti-government protesters in Venezuela are leftist "labor activists", too.

Answer these two questions:
1) who organises these labour activists and who funds their protests?
2) how did you hear about the protests?
2b) if you heard about it from Western media, why is the Western media talking about it?

The pattern is that Western imperialists generally support the dissidents and protesters. Then the Western media points to those protests as a sign of discontent in the country. If they want to do regime change they just say the government wants to kill innocent protesters (like they did in Libya) to justify sanctions or military action.

I don't know why I have to explain this to you…

Read this
monthlyreview.org/2006/06/01/conditions-of-the-working-classes-in-china/

And these while you're at it
labornotes.org/blogs/2016/09/review-what-chinese-workers-are-learning-their-strikes
labornotes.org/blogs/2014/10/review-behind-chinas-wildcat-strike-wave

So there's no way conditions could have improved in 14 years?

So they beat them up and broke up the strike only to give in to their demands? Interesting tactic.

You need to read things more critically, not just eat up whatever is written.

Considering little has changed regarding the systemic issues that plague china, like the fact that it's government is more or less controlled by obscenely rich oligarchs, as well as the commonality of wildcat strikes, I would say little has improved. Any improvements gained have been do to workers resisting the status quo and organizing outside of the system, in opposition to it. You need to read that article again btw, I'll help you by copy and pasting the part you should focus on:

Or maybe China is a capitalist state, with all the signature signs of capitalism. The only ones fooled by the red flags are you infantile Marcyites and politically illiterate liberals. Contradictions of capitalism cause the emergence of communism (as-the-real-movement) such as labour action. If it's supported by hostile imperialist states doesn't make it any more or less communist - the German empire supported the Bolsheviks to weaken the Russian empire for example.

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China is about to become the worlds top economy and you guys can't seem to get over it's officials strategic use of stage theory. I honestly don't follow.
What do you suggest they do, go socialist now? Wouldn't it be in their interest to let the west disintegrate (EU, American imperialism through some more of Trump's protectionist policies) and their population to at least hit western European levels of economic development? IIRC they're just now getting cars. Going on that Xi is not bluffing with his rhetoric on introducing socialism a relatively short period, given that he now has supreme rule indefinitely, aren't these some signs that shit might not be as fucking god-awful as you're so dead-set on it being? But at the same time I get why one would maintain a critical attitude as well. Some nuance would be okay though.

...

The Chinese capitalists have invested so heavily in the American economy that it is now in their interests to try to keep it afloat now.

You don’t build a factory to dismantle it. China owns so much property in America them bailing out the Burger sate is in there self interest.

It isn’t a bluff. It’s a campaign promise that isn’t going to fulfilled. Xi is a polition, and politions lie about what there going to do.

...

ftfy

How is this more indicative of socialism and not capitalism than, say, socially provided and communally owned cars, which are a more efficient and expedient use of resources and labor time, whereas the personal private ownership of cars is better for the development of capitalist profit?

That is some funky geography you have going on, dude.

Why would people who are getting rich on capitalism want to get rid of capitalism? The Chinese bourgeoisie has an overwhelming interest in keeping capitalism going, and they are the ruling class. Surely you do not expect them to forego their class interests in the name of being good communists. No, when capitalism falls apart, they are going to be the people who try to hold it together, because that's how class works.

take your meds Rafiq

You guys are probably getting brigaded by professional trolls working for the Chinese government, but meh the world would probably be better off with Beijing calling the shots instead of the dumper fire in the White House.

yes
no and neither is Moscow

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Seriously though compared to the U.S. or Russia, Chinese foreign policy is relatively benign. I'll stick with the 'broad, multilateral global frameworks based on mutual cooperation based on upholding international order and finding peaceful settlements of essentially political problems' and such as the Chinese like to say. They're not bombing anyone.

Yet.

blocks your path

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China is capitalist and imperialist. You can't ban me in here miss piggy.

All Hail General Secretary Pooh! All Hail Socialism with Hundred Acre Woods Characteristics!

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LMFAO Nike, iPhone, Gucci etc. all operate in China and they're not state owned, they're transnational Corporations run by Capitalist CEOs

It's natural geography, not shitty political geography.
It's based on how the Earth is really composed, through tectonics.
Two super-continents separated by major oceans of water.
Afro-Eurasia (incl. the underpopulated pebbles in Oceania) & the Americas.
Geology, not pseudo-science pol"sci".
I'm arguing that since a crash were to have happened anyway (to trigger a chaotic situation like this) then the combined dynamism of #1: the CCP being faced with a global depression, #2 the Chinese working class (one billion) developing into a point of relative socioeconomic maturation and autogestion and #3 the multi-polarization of the global economy. As (N.) Americo-polarity is shrinking both in physical numbers of humans living there as well as in relative economic dominance to Afro-Eurasia then I'm speculating that the chances of a class conscious billion of workers in an industrialized period could manage to change their conditions. Now that of course begs the question; what would the rest of the super-continent look like geopolitically while this were to be taking place?

I don't know. You tell me. There are already socialist pockets in southern Europe, and scattered all across Asia and Africa in various incarnations (Communalists, ML states, socdem/demsoc states, ongoing left-wing national liberation movements) and the Afro-Eurasian continent consists of billions of thinking people.

Fundamentally it's not like we haven't been in an economic depression before; you extrapolate a little for what the incarnation will manifest as.

—-

Also some of y'all are fucking paranoid. Stop crying and learn how to dialectics. Either that or shut up "waah" lol gimme a break, buster.

this is some of the dumbest shit I've read in a while

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time to leave another Pooh on this thread

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And China is in damn near the northeast corner of it. "The heart of" would be somewhere in the area of Egypt and Iraq.

You are anticipating that the Chinese workers will stage a revolution against the Chinese state while the world is weathering a depression that does not greatly affect China? This will happen while those places that are the most greatly affected by the economic collapse do… what?

Beyond the absurdity of the prognostication, we have seen this very scenario play out before. The global capitalist economy goes into a depression. The effect is particularly devastating to the older empires, although an emerging power feels the effects as well. What does that emerging power do? Why it joins in the carnage as the old empires destroy one another over what is left of the economy of course! Then it uses its now-unrivaled manufacturing advantage to dominate the post-war environment, thus saving capitalism from itself. Been there, done that, don't need to see the rerun.

iNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNdeed

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And install their own brand of imperialism.
What?
Ok, its not something i follow this area of the world but i was under the impression they were in the UK's sphere of influnce.
What?
Socialist market? U trollin m8?

If you want to praise something chinese praise their commitment to eliminate poverty by 2020, even though that has been made out of fear of the lesser classes rising up against the party.

If China's state really both controls large amounts of the economy, and genuinely represents the working class, why are there billionaires in the government and a huge lack of safety devices that are not cost-prohibitive to install in the factories? Why does the so-called worker's party allow workplaces to go without basic safety railing that allows people to fall into vats of boiling chemicals? These are not expensive nor difficult to install and yet workplace accidents in China are as horrific as they are frequent.

They are hoping to create Nicholson's Joker?

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this tbh

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I don't get these Xi-Pooh memes.

The left really cannot meme