Airbus and Dassault cooperate for Tornado/Mirage replacement

I still don't understand what NH-90 is supposed to do better than Mi-17 or Mi-8. Sure NH-90 is fairly silent, but that's more or less a moot point since it's still a 15 meter long flying box thing with a 15 something meter rotor powered by some engine rotating x times per minute. You can't make that exactly silent or un-noticable to infantry.

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Yeah…
By Rafales.

I think eventually the end goal is for everyone to chip in to develop a super duper plane that does absolute everything for the entirity of NATO but cause of the cost we can only afford one and never deploy it out of fear of losing it. Honestly the severe lack of long term planning by any government let alone military is what has fucked us over. Now most countries are in a situation where if worst comes to worse they can't even bite the bullet and go all in themselves

It's 20 years old give or take 5 years depending on what nation it is and what batch. Most of these aircraft were also designed in the late 80's. To put shit in perspective aircraft like the Rafale, Eurofighter, even the F-22 and F-35 for that matter were meant to be deployed in the late 90's at the very latest.

And? F-15 had first flight in 1972. 50 years later still flying good. If planes are physically old and can't fly anymore just buy new batches. Today 50% and more of such weapons system costs are fixed costs, R&D, cost of the production line establishing and support (open and hidden in general gibs to aircraft corporations). For the Eurofighter and Rafale these cost are already paid. Why do you need to at least double expenses (and take huge risks of possible program fail) when you can just buy new Rafales with no risks?

What are EU AF missions?

Policing and occasional bombings of sandniggers. Current aircraft are perfectly fine for this and you CAN'T do better. Better "bombings of sandniggers" is doing it cheaper they can't stop bombings anyway. In this day and age new cheaper multirole fighter is impossible.

Mission of countering big boys, Russia and China. Creating AF that have overmatch over them. This mission requisite masses of super planes like F-22 and Chengdu J-20 but much much better. Lets be honest here, EU can't afford such thing.

Affordable real mission is much cheaper to do with current planes buys, pipe dream mission is out of reach of europoors. So why even bother? Because of the false progress meme?

That's a military led by politicians for you. They only care about being elected for two years, have half a year of negotiating a coalition, half a year of scandals, and then something happens and they drop whatever they totally promised to do and they do something else.

Providing SEAD cause the USAF is incapable of doing that anymore?

I have to seriously fucking ask, are you 12? Cause that's the only way you could fail to grasp absolutely everything of my post this hard. Or be this absolutely fucking retarded in all honesty.

Remember to have enough of the budget allocated to maternity leave :^)

Dumb.

Do they not understand sarcasm where you come from?

Anyone feel that the unknown flag posters are cuckchan rapefugees?

Is the f35 obsolete or will be by the time its mass produced?

Long story short? Yes. Chinese have been playing catch up since the 50's so couldn't produce anything new. Russians were bankrupt for 30 years so couldn't produce anything new. West just circlejerked for the past 30-40 years rather than producing anything new. When an aircraft takes on average 15 years from the test flight to seeing active service then you may as well stop and design an entirely new aircraft. Truth be told we should be on Gen 6 by now.

Don't give Lockheeb any ideas.

F-35 is less stealthy than F-117 which was shot down in the 90s and is retired for being obsolete.
F-35 performs worse than F-101/F-102 in terms of speed, altitude, g-force, payload….
F-35 sensors are inferior to F-15C which is decades and decades out of date.

It was DESIGNED from the outset to be obsolete. Lockheed is hoping the military will buy 2000 of them, and then immediately have to buy 2000 replacements plus trillion $ to develop the replacement design.

...

Don't they call that Rafale?

In terms of shape and even construction materials given that the F-117 did not have to fly supersonic or pull high g-loads maybe, but I'd expect to F-35 to have a considerably larger load of Rafale-like active anti-detection defenses.

Active anti radar defenses have the following disadvantages:

- Only work on wavelengths that are long enough to be analyzed by the half dozen distributed sensors on the aircraft.
- Can't destructively interfere with more than one radiant source, so you have to pick who can't see you and who gets to see you better.
3. While the active system is on a passive emission detector some distance away from the ground based radar can detect it, and because it's passive HARM is useless.
4. They don't work on phased arrays, only on dish radar.

It's a gimmick.

>it's and we still aren't mass producing aerospace fighters and high orbit kinetic bombers

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...

The only nuclear missile in the west that comes close to matching capabilities of peer foes? It's still not what said.

Will it give cancer to the ground crews?

abc.net.au/news/2015-04-30/raaf-personnel-exposed-to-jet-fuel-suffered-cell-damage/6433360

theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/poisoned-and-dumped/news-story/ee89481a11c81726527648b7e32a39e7?sv=db8cf1409928f1ca6183d9724f30b523

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Bullshit, girls get autism at a far lower rate than guys.

Go ahead, take an object of fascination from an autist and see him rip your arms off…
I'm fucking tired of all those morons pretending to be autistic because it's the new fashionable way to pretend you're a genius when you're probably really not…

so no girl has autism?
are you retarded or something?

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Sure but I might not be able to suspend my disbelief if in your fictional universe every basketball player is from Portugal.

Plane will be produced, eventually… decade or two behind schedule and it wont meet requirements until at least decade after introduction. Dassault will probably end up merging with Airbus. They cannot afford to develop next generation fighter alone, so the company is more or less dead in water once Rafale production ends.

Kill yourself. Pierre Sprey-tier bullshit here. Idea that Tornado is inferior to any of aircraft it replaced is hilarious. It replaced some good planes like Blackburn Buccaneer and F-4 Phantom II. Some were mediocre like Jaguar and some were trash like F-104. All of the planes that were replaced with Tornado were far less capable planes. That radar bullshit only applies to British interceptor version and didn't last more than couple years.

No. It is surefire way to create bureaucratic nightmare. Program needs to go through multiple national and corporate bureaucracies for everything.

I don't think there can be worse multinational programs than NH-90 and Eurocopter Tiger. Supply chain of both programs is a bad joke and manufacturers have lied a lot to clients about schedule and actual capabilities. The supply chain issues have been completely insane. For example with NH-90 readiness in Finland and Australia collapsed when French, Germans and Italians deployed like half dozen helicopters each. Availability rates were around 20% at worst, cause was manufacturers inability to deliver spare parts that had been ordered years in advance. Australians are replacing their Tigers with Apaches only after 15 years of helicopters being in service.

Brief French involvement with Eurofighter is probably most perfect example one nation causing a mess in joint multinational program. Main reason for getting French involved into it was US pressure on all parties. First French demanded new requirements for plane and way different priorities, first build an carrier version as F-8's and Super Etendard's were most urgent thing requiring replacement in French inventory. Also French demanded higher portion of production than their own orders justified and use of French engine. To an extent Rafale is the original Eurofighter. UK, Germans and Italy got out of the program and started new one. Spain as well dropped out couple years later and joined the new program.

Eurofighter Typhoon was multirole from the start, it was just priority get air to air capabilities integrated first. Real issue and cause of delays for Eurofighter were budget cuts after the end of cold war, that delayed integration air to ground armament. This is where political pressure comes into play, to pretend that delays in schedule weren't as massive as those actually were they went on and turned what was supposed to be limited series of pre-production planes into Tranche 1 serial production planes.

To make money for companies involved in production and give post military career employment as consultants to lot of staff officers.
Flight noise is stealth feature, difference if how far away you notice it.

lol it's a bare improvement over F-4 in range and payload. It's a failure in terms of ceiling, and in a turn it loses energy more than twice as fast it has twice less wing area, weaker engines and heavier airframe. Tornado was basically a third generation aircraft which moronic nations paid through the nose for, and then had to pretend it's a 4th gen.

But it did actually happen, and you're supporting this piece of shit. Can you imagine the immense hilarity of Soviets downing Tornadoes in a fight only to find concrete ballast in the nose cone?

Holy shit just go back to >>>/reddit/ already

Tornado IDS is far more capable aircraft in low level recon and strike missions than RF-4E. As interceptor Tornado replaced English Electric Lightnings as well as Phantoms. Over the Phantom it has three advantages, range/loiter time, ability to use shorter runways and more advanced avionics. Another thing and probably most important thing is that it kept British aircraft industry running. The F2's that were initially equipped with ballast instead of radar were essentially trainers that were used train pilots before properly equipped F3's were ready for production.

Personally I find the ballast issue with Typhoons much more hilarious than Blue Circle radar of Tornado F2's. Mostly because it was absolutely unnecessary and cost saving measure that only ended up costing more money.

It is comparable or inferior in performance to F4, Mirage, Viggen… hell even the second generation Draken and F-5 could kick its ass. The Tornado did not belong in 4th generation, that is absolute bullshit. Range and avionics are garbage reasons to introduce a whole new airframe, since old airframes can be upgraded with new avionics and drop tanks easily.

Yeah Tornado ran the British aircraft industry right into the ground.

Airframes have limits on how much strain those can take, substantial part of RAF F4's were ex-FAA aircraft that had been exposed to more corrosive carrier service and another batch was former US aircraft, those too were at end of service life.

There are plenty of different mirages to choose from, but I assume you are talking about Mirage 2000. That has far shorter legs with useful payload than Tornado. Interceptor version of Tornado was sideshow. Main version was IDS and that is one of the finest strike aircraft ever made.

British aircraft industry was arguably run to the ground with 1957 defence whitepaper. Maintaining industrial base is a good reason to choose inferior aircraft over something superior like buying F-15's. Not to mention the irrelevant detail that interceptor version maintained high parts commonality with strike version.

The Draken could pull cobras 30 years before Pugachev was a thing. In close combat would probably be capable to easily fuck up any pre-4th gen plane.

In what way?

How so?

Depends on cost and age of airframe. Both the F-4 and the EELightning were fuckold at that point so wasting money to upgrade the avionics and modify the frame would be retarded.

I can't believe you're defending the abortion that was the tornado. It left Europe undefended against Russians for close to 30 years. I bet 40 years from now some rube will defend the F-35 as an enlightened step forward from the disgusting 4th generation aircraft that somehow outperform it

Tbh if the F-35 had used Tornado's approach with one dedicated strike variant and one dedicated interceptor variant it would probably be a good aircraft.

The Tornado ADV might not had been what it ought to be for a fighter of its era but it still did its job, even though not as good as planned, and was probably the best the UK's military industry could offer in its sad and constantly worsening state at that point.

The IDS was a freaking workhorse in its job of dieing for Israel, I don't see what's your problem with it.

A propeller airplane can do a strike mission, the drones are proving that. It's a completely useless mission set, it only exists to justify the existence of high performance fighters when not fighting peer wars. The fact that they designed a separate variant for the strike mission shows how little the designers knew about what the fuck they were building. Putting bombs on the ADV would have made more sense.

And as for the ADV… it was not 4th generation! It was a 2nd/3rd generation power plant and airframe, with a few 4th generation avionics duck taped on. It didn't have any of the hallmark aerodynamic features of 4th gen. The weapons were just stapled on as an afterthought.

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>nor genetically engineered catgirls for domestic or military ownership

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Huge majority to Tornados built were strike variants. Those were some of the best STRIKE aircraft in NATO inventory. Literally a plane that was made for denying commies runways and flying fast and low through defended airspace.

There absolutely will be people defending F-35 in future, because having multiple different airframes for dedicated missions is bad idea when they can integrate that all in one plane.

>A propeller airplane can do a strike mission, the drones are proving that.
No propeller airplane is going to do supersonic penetration of advanced air defense at low level, this is quite literally the opposite of what COIN planes are supposed to do. A drone might do that in future, but those still aren't at that point in development.

Tornado was designed in 70's and was last western dedicated role fighter-BOMBER. Even McDonnell-Douglas was bit skeptical could they integrate all avionics of F-18 and A-18 into one multirole aircraft. Having two separate avionics packages was on the table with F/A-18 and the powers that be were ready to go with plane where they might have swap avionics to switch role even when production orders were placed and pre-production aircraft were rolling out. They were supposed to have absolutely same airframe, but different avionics and software when they weren't sure computers could handle all missions. Meanwhile General Dynamics was absolutely certain that F-16 will eventually get there, despite USAF brass preferring F-15 delaying integration of air combat capabilities so that they can get more F-15's. Multirole fighter is something that was on papers in 70's and actually became reality in 80's and 90's. Fighter-bombers of earlier days were mostly failed fighters like F-84, not good enough for fighter part of job, but good enough for dropping bombs.

ADV was an afterthought with stretched fuselage and slightly more internal fuel. IDS was always the main variant of Tornado. ADV was never the ideal fighter for RAF, but something that was just as capable as Phantom II with more loiter time and with more advanced radar. It wasn't really fighter, but just launch platform for missiles to shoot down Soviet bombers and cruise missiles over North Sea. Something that had decent radar and capability to loiter over area of operations. ADV did have massive political and strategic rationale in maintaining British aircraft industry.

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A drone could not have done that during the entire development time and a lot of the service life of the tornado. The Tornado was a very capable plane in its IDS variant if used for the intended purpose.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. The drones you think about have a several decade lead on the tornado.
I do have to agree that a single small prop plane could effectively penetrate soviet airspace however, as there was an incident where a west german private pilot flew out in to the baltic sea, crossed back on to land on some point and kept going, landing his Cessna right in front of the Kreml on the red square.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wue02Y0lS38
is this indicative of a possible success of a large scale invasion? I think not. The low alt high speed approach of the IDS variant would have been the only variant likely to have an acceptable attrition rate short of very high altitude hypersonic delivery systems, both of which would have had problems getting to operating altitudes from West german airbases before being intercepted by eastern SAM.
This was a very common problem for the Luftwaffe in WW2, fighters constantly patrolling in air space ready to shoot down planes that are otherwise hard to reach in the vulnerable part of the flight, i.e. during ascent and descent.
Long range SAM systems would have hindered at least german capabilities in this regard.
Hypersonic delivery from very high altitude also requires smarter bombs, because effective and accurate bombing from up there is almost impossible with dumb bombs. The stand off distance is quite nice though.

I wonder whether this line of thought was considered when they made the MBB Lampyridae.

Never ever until the weak and niggers are killed.

Why do people make nukes to be the scary boogyman that it is?

Smart weapons & modern day optics such as thermal are freaking terrifying.

When has it ever done that? I'm not even sure it could until the GR4 update.

Except it can't be integrated in one airframe.

Are you ignoring the existence of other swing wings like F-14 and F-111 which blows Turdnado out of the fucking water in every metric?

A manned propeller airplane could have done everything Tornado did in its service life, I brought up drones as an example of a propeller airplane doing modern strike.

Turdnado never bombed the Soviet Union, not was it ever called to. It's mission package was bombing Soviets defensively, if they invaded. Which a prop could do as well…. In reality Turdnado bombed serbs and durkas which a biplane could have done. That's the reality of strike missions, they're pointless.

It was doing that from the beginning of its career. That's what the sophisticated terrain following radar was for.

Both bigger more expensive aircraft and I doubt the Bombcat was equally effective at AtS given it was a multi-role and not a full blown strike aircraft.

Except reach supersonic, even less so at sea level plus it would lose all fuel efficiency at the transonic speeds the Tornado normally operated.

That had managed to shoot down an F-117 and an F/A-18.

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Any actual argument?

F-14 that can't drop unguided bombs under 500 kg accurately due to lifting body aerodynamics. When it comes to F-111 it was plane that was replaced with inferior F-15E. It was more expensive and heavier aircraft than Tornado and as bonus F-111 was pretty problematic aircraft for USAF.

No prop aircraft can go supersonic on low level and have any chance of surviving air defenses.

Radar Brits had ballast for a while was air intercept radar for interceptor version.

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Should not that also be the case with F-15E and F-35?

*Kof kof*

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No. F-14 specific problem, quite a lot of unpredictable vortexes around duct between engines. Later multirole variants of F-14 were limited to either heavy bombs or only using precision guided weapons.

If the new plane they produce looks as shitty as the Eurofighter I am going to be pissed. The tornado is a true beauty. There is something about the mix of round shapes and edges that simply looks sexy as hell.
You also barely get any pictures of it in high speed mode.

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What's wrong with the Typhoon?
I know the Swiss didn't like them too much and it has typical NATO shekel grabbing features of incompatible avionics between production tranches, but from what I've read over the years it at appears to be capable of holding its own in a gun engagement against the F-22.

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IMO the the Typhoon is not an ugly plane but it's just a canard-delta twin engine F-16.

Frogs started from the same point with the Rafale but actually put some thought and originality in their OC donut carbon-fibre plane.

V G W  WILL RISE AGAIN!

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