Top brass turning down a chance for some fun and camaraderie between different...

Isaac Morris
Isaac Morris

Russians come up with the Tank Biathlon, basically MBT racing + target shooting motorsports, in 2013 (before the whole Crimea clusterfuck, even)
Invite countries from all over the world to participate, including NATO
With the exception of Greece, NATO refuses the invitations year after year, calling the competition "military exercises" and "saber rattling" from the Russians
Cue 2017, NATO makes their own version of the event, the Strong Europe Tank Challenge
NATO's event looks more like a military exercise rather than a sport, held among a small group of countries with no outsiders allowed, and focused on disciplines like vehicle identification, battle damage assessment, ammo/resupply drills, hull-down target practice and precision maneuvers
Meanwhile Russian's event is just an obstacle course racing competition with tanks drifting on dirt, racing head-to-head and shooting their guns while jumping off ramps, fireworks included
Top brass turning down a chance for some fun and camaraderie between different nations because of the color of your uniform. Talk about being petty.

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chalarisargiris.blogspot.com/2012/09/1974-15-2005.html

Luis Morales
Luis Morales

Well, it looks like the western nations know how to spend their money on proper training, and Russia does not.

Levi Bailey
Levi Bailey

The Russians train the rest of the year, nothing wrong with stopping that a couple weeks out of the year for some friendly competition. It's the same deal as the Olympics or the Army-Navy football game. Also,

Western nations
know how to spend their money
Even if we assume that Western training budgets are allocated completely without flaw, dubsman, NATO wastes more than enough money in every other part of their military budgets to make up for it.

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Chase Bailey
Chase Bailey

Competitions are military exercises
That's like calling a range evening bad military training. It's just sport.
Russians train their armor divisions every damn day like everyone else, they're not dumb. Doesn't mean holding a little fun competition once every year is irresponsible in any way.
Hell, the Canadians had their own tank gunnery championship since the 60's, which was what the ruskie Tank Biathlon was based on.

Nolan Bennett
Nolan Bennett

They're the only ones that still actually do division and army size drills, so clearly no.

The Russian thing is just part of inter-army games everyone has except there always was a couple of events on vehicles rather than just sports and shooting, so the guys that aren't infantry could play too. It existed already in the USSR (and in NATO actually, it was held in Germany with tanks from all of the allies) and ex-soviet armies friendly towards Russia still came to participate every year, so they just extended on that by inviting everyone.

The Europe STRONKK (that name) thing is the annual brigade size NATO cavalry military drill with a thin coat of games on it (if anything it's gamizing what was a serious maneuver, you tell me if that's a good idea).

If you've never seen a tank biathlon match watch vid related.

David Campbell
David Campbell

While it is petty as fuck I think the west doesn't want to race their tanks against the T-90 because the T-90 is light and fast.
Now before the 56%ers get their panties in a twist I'm not saying it's the best MBT but due to Russian design philosophy it is very maneuverable and less likely to roll a track due to it's light weight.
Still western tanks would probably win the target shooting due to better fire-control systems.

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Alexander Young
Alexander Young

AFAIK don't the Soviet/russian trade crew numbers (eg, meat shields) and ease of movement within the tank for profile and automation? I know they do that on their subs.

Ryan Howard
Ryan Howard

I know they are meant to change firing position constantly due to their weaker armor but I have no idea how much independence they are allowed to exercise.

Ryan Powell
Ryan Powell

That too. I know the until the T80s (and maybe also the t90s?) have a shit reverse speed. However, Deep battle does focus little on reverse. The russians considered that to be a logistical and not a tactical movement.

Cameron Walker
Cameron Walker

M1A2 Abrams power to weight ratio: 26.9 hp/t
T90 power to weight ratio: 18.2 hp/t
T90A power to weight ratio: 20.4 hp/t
Whatever you say Ivan.

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Liam Barnes
Liam Barnes

M1 slides sideways, throws track….

Dominic Miller
Dominic Miller

T-90 slides sideways, rolls without throwing track.

Brayden Diaz
Brayden Diaz

When I'm talking about racing I'm talking about corner speed.

William Wood
William Wood

Every country can drive their own tank if they so choose, but default is a stock T-90.

Austin Bell
Austin Bell

You know, it could've been a great opportunity, to beat Russians at their own game and show off superior technology in direct comparison. Maybe they don't want to damage their expensive fucking tanks in the process, which is piss easy to do on that race track if you're not careful. Or maybe they don't believe they could win and would rather abstain entirely than shit the bed in front of the whole planet.

Levi Lewis
Levi Lewis

Just a few degrees short of landing on their tracks and carrying on.

Or maybe they don't believe they could win and would rather abstain entirely than shit the bed in front of the whole planet
Look at how they've been rigging NATO exercises to make themselves look good. As the current uni-polar and unpopular superpower they need to present themselves as completely unbeatable, especially where they aren't anything like that. In order to even consider entering any international tank contest (let alone one run by you guys) they'd need a tank with the performance of a sports car and a gun that could hit specific square millimetres on the target from 10km away - and they'd still demand that the rules be changed to favour them before they took part.

Asher Williams
Asher Williams

And the funny thing is, once NATOfags made their own event they invited every Yuropoor nation except for us because they're mad that Greece still chooses to buy Russian equipment rather than trash western garbage.

Justin Morgan
Justin Morgan

Still western tanks would probably win the target shooting due to better fire-control systems.
T-90 and T-72B3 have EXACTLY the same FC system as Leclercs (which is the best of NATO MBTs).
As in they're made under license in Russia.
The Soviet Union HAD a tech gap in electronics… That was 30 years ago.

Jeremiah Wright
Jeremiah Wright

still chooses to buy Russian equipment rather than trash western garbage
Isn't 90%+ of all our equipment's' money-worth of western origin? The only Russian shit we have are the S-300 we urgently bought from Cyprus because Turkey was butthurt and a handful of APCs and self-propelled missile-artillery.

Jacob Gomez
Jacob Gomez

Does any NATO country or ally have a T-90 model in their arsenal? I know Ukraine showed up on the SETC with a T-64BM.

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Joshua Cooper
Joshua Cooper

Most of our shit is indeed western, and specifically German/American, but we haven't bought shit from them in a long time, and we keep making deals with the Russians. Not necessary weapon deals
Our island Cyprus has Τ-80U/UK tanks.

Wyatt Williams
Wyatt Williams

That's a BV not a BM.
They've lost nearly all their BM, (only 29 were made, they lost 18 and they have lost the capacity to make them since most of the parts were imported from Russia)…

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Jack Jenkins
Jack Jenkins

Why doesn't Greece retake Cyprus? You have a larger navy, airforce and army in the area than Turkey, which has most of their armed forces on the border with Iran shitting their pants, or on the border with Syria helping smuggle in "rebels".

Now is the time to strike…

Gabriel Watson
Gabriel Watson

chalarisargiris.blogspot.com/2012/09/1974-15-2005.html
Too much trouble to translate. Maybe tomorrow.

tl:dr: the perfidious albion strikes again

Hudson Green
Hudson Green

Because the country is ruled by commies. Until Golden Dawn is elected, this country will continue to be a worthless utterly irrelevant shithole and our ancestors will continue rolling in their graves.

Eli Moore
Eli Moore

our ancestors will continue rolling in their graves
On the plus side, if you affix dynamos to them, you can solve the European energy crisis.

Samuel Gray
Samuel Gray

implying we haven't already
Did you think that our medium-sized lignite deposits and solar heaters could cover the energy demands of a 10M's country?

Thales of Miletus was already making prototypes based on Hesiod's theoretical frame.

Nathan Rogers
Nathan Rogers

demands of a 10M's country
It still drives me mad that we're just 10 million strong. And I guarantee you 3 million of them are Albanians and other foreigners, not actual Greeks.

We should be like 50 million strong minimum and the military no smaller than 5 million. How are we expected to genocide the entire middle east with just 500,000 troops?

Ian Lopez
Ian Lopez

How are we expected to genocide the entire middle east with just 500,000 troops?

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Hudson Reyes
Hudson Reyes

Not thread related but can you greeks own firearms in any practical, I know people in Japan CAN own guns but virtually nobody does, I'm talking the common man here capacity or have you lads taken the yuropoor cuckold pill like everyone else in that godforesaken continent?

Caleb Flores
Caleb Flores

yuropoor cuckold pill
You do know that Europe and Britain are two different things right?
Because you can own guns (nearly everything the same as a burger without a FFL) fairly easily pretty much everywhere in Europe except places that still uphold commies laws (Poland for example IIRC)… and the UK where it's illegal to sell tea spoons to minors.

Typically all you have to do is getting registered at a shooting range (which… you know… if you own guns you're gonna go to a shooting range. Europe isn't the Midwest there are people everywhere even if you live in the sticks. Shooting your guns outside a range is a pretty sure way to land your ass in trouble unless you own a lot of land or something), Europeans that bitch about not having funs are either lazy or ignorant (or both) which is what Europeans governments count on.

Ethan Watson
Ethan Watson

This would be the only sport ive ever felt interested in watching. Fugging (((NATO))).

Lucas Walker
Lucas Walker

At last I truly see
Like said, we're one of the places that still use commie laws. We can own handguns, but it takes a lot of time to get a license for one. You need to participate in a crapload of shooting competitions in order to get the license and even then there is a risk of the commie police not giving you the license anyway.

However, shotguns can be easily acquired through just half a year of shooting club activity. You can then legally own a Vepr/Saiga 12 with drum mags and slugs. Not redots/scopes though, those things turn your shotgun into a powerful baby killing machine apparently.
It's not much, but if you really want to own a fun, you can do it. Within 2 years you will almost certainly have at least a bunch of shotguns and some handguns.
As for rifles. smoothbores only and no more than 3 bullets capacity.

Overall pretty cucked, but we can at least pack enough firepower to genocide shitskins and policefags.

Tyler Hall
Tyler Hall

I believe you (France not sure about the rest of Europe) can own any gun made before 1898 without a license, though most take ammo that you pretty much have to reload, and I don’t know French laws regarding reloading cartridges. I do know German laws a bit better and to get a target shooting licence (easiest one to get, and allows you I believe 3 hand guns 2 long rifles and 3 shotguns) you need to find a gun club that will let you join, them go for 16 shooting sessions within one year and after that you can have the club write you a letter that will allow you to start the process to get the Target shooting licence. After goverment and police shenanigans you have to buy a safe that is seceured to the floor and then do it again because ammo and guns need to be stored separately. Then I believe you can get your licence and go buy how ever man guns it allows you to have, though I am not sure if you need a background check for each purchase. So it’s not really hard, it’s just really fucking long and tedious. That being said I believe Germany and France both have around 30 guns per 100 people which is about what we have and here it is really easy. You have to take a firearms course, usually a day long and pass a simple written test that has a few musket questions, then do a demonstration for the instructor that you can’t fail if your IQ is over 14. Then you’ll get a form, fill it out send them some money, wait 45 days or so then wait another 20 days for it to come back and then go out and buy as many non-restricted (all guns minus handguns, guns of a certain length, and random scary looking ones) as you want no background check or registration. Repeat to get a Restricted licence.

Juan Collins
Juan Collins

wall of text
Sorry, forgot to format.

Elijah Evans
Elijah Evans

I don’t know French laws regarding reloading cartridges.
There is a threshold on how much shit you can buy per year but it's something stupid (like X kilos of powder per year, 5 maybe? I don't remember but it's an honestly understandable safety/fire hazard thing, no-one that I know that seriously reload ever managed to hit the threshold. And I know the guy that supplies a good part of the french army spec ops with custom loaded .308 and .338 and has a setup closer to a small ammo plant rather and than reloading bench), there is also a limit on how much live ammo you can stockpile but it's something like 2000 rounds per gun you own (so want more ammo? Buy more guns…).

To own hunting rifles you can just take a skeet-shooting license (yearly) or pass a hunting license, which has an actual test (drive test like thing) but is lifelong. For that you just go to a store and buy them.

For "semi-autos over 3 rounds" in France it's roughly the same paperwork-wise/waiting time as in Germany but it's only 3 sessions per year in France in a gun club (but you have to do 3 every year, which again I can't think of a downside to having to go 3 times in a year to a range), but you need to do a back and forth of paperwork every time you want to buy something.
You ask the club, club ask the federation, they give you or not their approval, (no reason they won't unless you're a drunkard or something, the federation 100% rubber-stamps it, it's entirely up to the clubs, but the clubs pretends it's not to avoid conflicts), that doesn't take long (a couple of days), then you fill out a form with basic shit in it, + the approval notice from the federation + a copy of your range attendance stamp card + a proof you have a safe (a photo is enough) and bring it to the prefecture (I think we can just send them now, since like January).
Then they you wait for a fairly long time, like a couple of months (mostly that the police that has other shit to do, find time to do the background check. In theory they check houses for the safes and everything. In practice I had an exhausted sounding gendarme call me once and ask me why I wanted to buy guns "hmm…? to shoot a my range?" "'kay" and that was the whole extent of the conversation…).
Apparently I heard it varies from prefectures to another but in ours they issue buying authorization 3 per 3 so once you've done all the paperwork and it came back, you can buy 3 guns (semi-auto + the few restricted shotguns).

You just give one of the papers (one part has been filled by the prefecture one part has been left blank for them) per each gun you buy to the gun shop they do something on their end (they transfer the serials from their stock to Mr. X I assume) and you leave with gun you bought (or they send it to you if you buy online).

So yeah it's kind of pain but it's nothing world shattering either. If anything it makes you not spend money on the novelty of the week.
You have less guns but better ones…

Jordan Sanders
Jordan Sanders

5 kilos is 11 pounds, 1 pound of powder is 7000 grains, so 5 kg would be 77,000 grains of powder roughly, enough for 22,000 light lead pistol loads, 2,000 battle rifle or deer hunting loads appox, or 1,000 rounds of 375 H&H. For most this would probably do well per year, for some hardcore guys with more money and time who shoot fuckloads it might be an issue, ie people who reload 223 on blue machine by the thousands. Also that means you have to be careful which powders you choose, buy an 8 pound keg of something you use most of your allowance, buy many powders you end up with only 10 half kilo jugs or 11 one pound jugs. I think I may have more than 11 powders in my current reserve stock, be interesting to here exactly what X kilos per year in your laws is. Also, what of primer limits?

I live in a midwest northern state that has basically no laws over the federal, when I went to get my FN FAL last week I just showed up, wrote a few things in a few lines, checked a few boxes, showed my conceal carry permit numbers and got my rifle and walked out. When I got my PTR91 G3clone before I had my conceal permit the only difference was like a 1 minute phone call and boom, I walk out with a battle rifle and 11 20 round magazines. No muss, no fuss. Some of the lowest rates of crimes here too, funny that….

But its strange to see how things change in the US, its not one big country with the same laws, and its getting to the point where many European countries are more gun friendly than Californiastan or Chimpcago. All that second amendment whining by American liberals and they forget there are parts of their own liberal "utopias" of homeless people shitting in the streets due to their failed policies where its harder to get autoloaders than the wonderous European gun control systems they fawn over.

Off topic again, but its just a strange state of affairs.

Christopher Fisher
Christopher Fisher

That's socialism for you.

A mid to low income person needs 2/3 of their paycheck to live in a country, have a house and car, maintain their job and spouse. 1/3 of the paychecks is needed to feed and school their child.

Guess what portion of a paycheck a socialist government takes?

Easton Sullivan
Easton Sullivan

I looked it up and the limit is "you can't have more than 2kg of powder at home" there is no limit on how much per year now apparently (I think it changed, they changed it for gunshops too), so you just buy more when you run out (it's not like anyone checks anyway).

Dylan Kelly
Dylan Kelly

Yes comrade, send all your most advanced tanks to our "sport event". We totally won't try and have a look at your technology, promise!

Gabriel Rivera
Gabriel Rivera

There's nothing impressive about western tanks for the Russians to look at.

Ian Cooper
Ian Cooper

In addition to what the gyro said, of all the possible ways for the Russians to perform espionage, a sporting even is far from the most effective.

Noah Turner
Noah Turner

Spending time, effort and money into making public armored vehicle racing events (where the russians even give the option to lend their modernized T-72s to other nations if they don't want to/can't use their own) for years in a row is totally an espionage coverup
If the goal was espionage, they'd just, you know, send spies to other countries, like they did with Britain.

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