When participating in IRL politics and events, where do we draw the line between actual participation and what is called LARPing on imageboards? Is LARPing just a synonym for pretending to be something you're not or is it more than that? For example, is having a party flag like
considered LARPing (regardless of its perception to normalfags) if the person is engaged in real political work? (no offense to that user's flag edit). This is just something that has been on my mind for a while and I was wondering other anons' thoughts on this matter
LARPing, in terms of post-structuralist thought, refers mostly to virtuality engulfing reality itself. Likewise, the term simulation and its cognate simulacrum have a venerable history as the Latin translations of the Platonic eidolon. This is a copy of a copy, exemplified in Plato's Republic by a painting of a bed: the carpenter's bed is a copy of the Ideal; the painter's a copy of the carpenter's, and so at a distant remove from the reality of the Idea. The term virtual is almost as ancient, traceable to the Aristotelian distinction between potential and actual: the future is a field of infinite potential until it is realized, at which point it trades its potentiality for actuality.
Doing anything is LARP, even on the internet.
Where does that leave us with flags and other symbolism? I'm sure that example flag could be made more appealing (a star instead of a hammer and sickle, whatever) but I don't see it to be on the level of Zig Forumsyps wandering out of the basement with swastika flags. Maybe it is just how a given group handles itself with these things
Larping has a connotation of alienation and superficiality, of being out of place and out of time, the term originates in fantasy festivals where people play that they're knights and elves. On the superficial level a larper is someone who is out of place and time politically. They are however not fossilized remnants, someone like Jason Unruhe, with his fondness for Chinese hats, slogans and songs might be the prime example of a poltical larper, he would not have fitted in seamlessly in 1950's China, neither would the deux vult meme kids have fitted in with the Knights Hospitaller. What truly makes a larper then, is to play, to dress up, to consist of imagery without containing the actuality of that which the imagery is taken from. The worst sort of larping is self-conscious larping, when the void has fully emptied itself and has as its substance nothing but that realization; i.e irony twitter. .
Wow playa I did not kno dat. I always thought Aristotle's whole view was within the actual only. Whenever people reference Aristotelian Logic it's always taking place within duality, no mention is ever made about possibility.
As for OP, In the example of the flag, 'having' a flag doesn't mean anything. People ran around with the Kek flag for years, larping at rallies, but I think that's a good place to draw the scope back to what actually is political action. Left/Right squabbling assholes is not political. All the signs and symbols are carried and paraded around, but it's truly all for naught, and it's playing into Porky's pockets. The political arena is not within 'protest', and hasn't been. Political gains are made when workers and the dispossessed get justice. A demonstration or a riot is not a protest. Protests are set up by committees and Miley Cyrus in order to give the facade of political action. In a protest, people make 'demands' and expect them to be followed by those that are in power. They make a mess and go home. A demonstration is when free people demonstrate that they are free from the bonds that the state tries to apply to everyone else. This could be in the form of flag carrying, yeah, if it's a radical union or other autonomous power wielding force goes out and shows that they're not being ruled, and that they oppose the existing power structures of the state. Invisible Committee's "Now" talks a bit about this, if I remember correctly.
To me its the difference between cosplaying as a revolutionary and taking part in actual politics. We have to be pragmatic about socialism. There will be no insurrection in the west that will resemble any of the 20th century revolution. We are not going to be storming the Whitehouse with hammer and sickle flags. The working class is never going to rally behind a party called something like the "Revolutionary Communist Party (Marxist-Leninist-Maoist)" and if you think they will you are an out of touch moron and are little more than a LARPer. Chanting Stalins name in protests and rallies is idiotic and is also nothing but LARP. Dressing up as what you imagine revolutionaries look like and hoping that that's the way we will break with capitalism is LARP. Right now the situation is ripe for real left win agitation and we have a real chance at reviving working class radical politics. Yet so too many radicals would rather just keep engaging in socialist cosplay and pointless sectarian feuds when they could help the growing socialist movement grow and prevent it from falling into social democracy that does nothing but manage capitalism!
If you make any attempt at changing society then you're LARPing and kidding yourself.
Quit false flagging me buddy.
tradleft activisim is what i define as larping
This but unironically.
how's convincing everybody that they're better off without air conditioning going?
who says it was ironic?
I hope being this pessimistic isn't this widespread IRL and it's confined to imageboards. No wonder nothing gets done. Both Zig Forums and the leftist boards are all the same: Surely I'm not the only one who hates this attitude. It's pretty counterproductive imo. Of course one has to be realistic in their thinking, but moaning how doing anything is gay, nothing will ever get done. Catch you IRL, fags
No your not. It's frustrating and makes me anxious.
But don't worry. When the system collapses in on itself, they will have to do something.
Glad to see I'm not completely alone. I know how you're feeling. Doing nothing is agonizing for me. I'm energized and ready to act; I just need to straighten out some flaws I see in myself and nail down theory. I hope the true comrades will not hesitate to act when that inevitably happens. I'm not saying I don't understand how they feel, I've felt pessimistic at times, but I just feel the worst thing to do while feeling pessimistic is doing absolutely nothing. Of course I'm not suggesting that every comrade out there throw themselves into a single-minded drive for radical change like Sergei Nechayev, but rather they do what they can afford to do. Doing something is better than nothing. It's foolish to think any of this will be easy
The collapse of capitalism isn't going to happen, it's just going to evolve into another form of exploitation. Humans have been exploited for all of our existence, just because big beard man said that exploitation is gonna stop soon doesn't mean it will.
If you try doing any kind of real world activism you're LARPing. The socialist movement has been dead for a long time, and at this point it isn't even a movement anymore but a strange union of intellectualism and a gruesome martyrdom of dead guys that shares many characteristics with religion. It's never gonna collapse, and no matter how big any socialist front gets it's not gonna change because resource-based exploitation will continue as long as there are resources.
inb4 bookchin bros try to delete scarcity
So much text yet so little said.
Economists predict that capitalism will collapse by 2060 (though the way things are going it might happen before then) so yes, capitalism will collapse. Nothing lasts forever.
Right. Just because capitalism will collapse, doesn't mean oppression will end. Anyone who says that is delusional. However, we need to be prepared for when it does happen.
I'm not sure about everyone else here, but I'm not focused on activism anymore. That all seems pointless now. I say just wait for everything to go down the tubes, and then strike while the iron is hot.
What's the point of advocating for the collapse of capitalism if it won't be the collapse of oppression?
I never said advocating, all I'm saying is that it WILL happen.
However, what I am advocating for, is that we need to be there when this does happen and then we can actually make some change. The end of capitalism will not end oppression, only the people collectively can end oppression.
I guess it's just better to shitpost and talk big online, huh? Kill yourself. Politics is more than just edgy memes. Shit affects us people in real life. I'm not gonna just sit there and rot.
You're gonna be rotting anyway since you're not gonna be changing anything and will waste your entire life being disillusioned because you'll never see the actualization of your cause. You'll alienate yourself from everyone around you and continue descending into a chasm of esoteric thought until you either sober up and realize that you can't change anything or get curb stomped by a fascist or a cop for doing something stupid and ideologically-motivated. I know because I used to care about politics, now that I've given up my life has become much happier and I actually have friends, something that many of these comrades can't say for themselves.
LARPing means role-playing, like dressing up as a red army soldier or something. Ineffective organization or action isn't necessarily LARPing, and deserves a more serious critique along with examples of how to do it right.
You do your thing, others will do theirs. No one is forcing you to be involved in politics. You shouldn't try to lure others away from it I'm increasingly suspicious that you are literally pic related
Id consider LARPing in a Political / Activism sense to be something Similar as to how CPGB-ML acts (Le stalin banner maymay people) where their just throwing up someone with an extreme negative stigma around them in an attempt to be edgy
Non-LARRPing Left- Activism / Politics would be something like the KKE / PCP / Die Linke / Corbyns faction / DSA / CPRF / CPB Etc
The General Rule i us is
agree with pretty much all of that but
LARPing has become a buzzword for pretty much anybody who tries to achieve something IRL and with which the accuser disagrees with. I've been accused of "LARPing" for as much as participating on a debate about Stalin on campus. According to that logic, most historians are "LARPing".
LARPing in the original sense is when you dress up. Nothing else. Everybody who tries to tell you otherwise is probably a defeatist, same like these idiots who'd constantly go on about muh FBI muh alphabet soup whenever there is an attempt of organization. These people are /happy/ with the current neutered state of the radical left, they don't want to leave their comfort zone of internet shitposting on a Kazakh horse milking board, and are probably well off under liberal capitalism as it is.
The Stalin banners are an attempt of provocation. There is the old saying "bad press is better than no press". You have a Stalin banner at your stand? Guarantee that people will come at you. With some basic bitch red flag nobody will be interested.
I don't know if you have noticed but the right uses that tactic of provocation quite successfully.
That's nothing more than a mere deflection. If your only defence against accusations of LARPing is an attempt at delegitimising the very concept, then yes, you do have a problem. Do you acknowledge that Zig Forumsyps running around with the Kekistan flag in motorcycle helmets are LARPers? Of course you do, you'll hurt your credibility if you don't. So, therefore, you acknowledge the concept of LARPing as legitimate. There goes your defence.
And this saying is mostly used by conmen and various assorted lolcows. Mate, if you have a problem with people calling you a LARPer, then maybe you should consider changing your attitude a bit. This planet doesn't revolve around you; sometimes you really are genuinely mistaken, and the world won't patiently wait for you to realise that.
see that's pretty much the whole problem
I'm sorry to confront you with reality, but sometimes baiting is a legitimate method of drawing attention. Have you ever tried to be actually involved in IRL politics? Do you know how fucking frustrating it is? Besides from some marginalized Zig Forumstards or "liberalists" people aren't getting attentively even if you promote openly communism. Most people have a mild disregard for you, or just walk away, not even ill-intended, but saying something like "well, you are right about this system, not sure if you can fix it like that, but good luck, good to see people being idealistic, goodbye".
This is all bullshit. At this point shitposting on social media does legitimately more than IRL politics for communists unless you are living in a country where a communist party is in the parliament or even in power. A Stalin poster gets you the headlines, you might even have journalists giving you a platform. The CPGB-ML is smaller than all other socialist parties in the UK, yet they have repeatidly gotten interviews, platforms, headlines and have diplomats from the DPRK, Cuba and China speaking at their events - so they must be doing /something/ right, and looking at all the other orgs, and how utterly neutered they are, or sometimes kept as a pet by SocDems (particularly true for Trots!), I don't think people can point their finger at them.
If you are a communist, and you don't play dress-up (LARPing), there is literally no position too radical you shouldn't advocate for "optics", don't conceal your intentions. If somebody wants to poison the well right away in every debate, or shrieks at the mere mention of Stalin, he or she will backstab you anyway when push comes to shove.
at the very least you've made third-worldism seem like an appealing alternative.
Communism is the truth. You shouldn't shy away from it like a socdem.
Stop touching people with with silky gloves trying to appeal to the liberal mainstream. If people can't handle some basic truths that their fee-fees get hurt so much that they can't even be bothered to make an argument against you are talking to staunch anti-communists anyway.
Have you ever talked to someone who would be considered a traditional worker? They are often pretty much a blank slate when it comes to political education, if someone harps on about muh gorillions without end he's either a peak liberal or an anti-communist. Look at people like Muke as a negative example who constantly complain about "bad optics" and defend the stupidest shit Antifa pulls to gain entry into the liberal discussion platforms (while banning every socialist).
We have to see how much the West goes down the toilet the next two decades but right now revolution can only occur in developing countries, that doesn't make you a Third Worldist though. Third Worldists argue that revolution is impossible without the Third World revolution coming first, that's quite a difference. There is no denial that Third World national liberation helps though - cutting more and more assets off the western bourgeoisie is only a good thing.
Useful idiocy works both ways.
I'd march with a banner of Lenin and Marx at the very least. I see nothing wrong with it. Nothing to be ashamed of
Nothing to be fired or persecuted for either. The system is surprisingly tolerant of its supposed arch-nemesis.
nobody asked you christcom
weird thing to say
what basic truth, that stalin is daddy?
tankie looks down on the proletariat, what a surprise
plenty of workers are receptive to socialist ideas, just not to some kid in his twenties telling them how great the soviet union was
Marx for sure. I could go without Lenin. People suggesting that we should forgo having pictures of Marx or Engels should GTFO
Stalin wrote for the working class. His works are crystal clear and easy to digest, and the language isn't that outdated. They are great introductions to communism and meant to be read by the common worker.
Funny coming from a guy who seemingly has no regard for the plights of the common worker, and if you don't deliberately misrepresent me, you'd not say that I disregard the proletariat, in fact, I praise it for not being indoctrinated with liberal propaganda and not living in the liberal echo chamber. That the proletariat has no political education is a fact, not disrespectful - lower tier education provides almost nothing in this regard, and it would be foolish, not to approach that vacuum as communists. Sadly most leftists disregard the proletariat nowadays as "deplorables".
Why? Telling them how Soviet achievements could be implemented in the society in which they live (no unemployment, no homelessness, free public services, etc.) is a great incentive to become engaged in communism.
Marx yeah, but using a Lenin pic might give rise to misunderstandings, for example that the party/org in question wants to organize the revolution and resulting society in exactly the same way Lenin did. Whereas the current material circumstances call for something different. Remember that most people we try to appeal to don't have in depth knowledge of Marx' or Lenin's theories.
I'm not even comparing them you fucking moron. I don't think Stalin was remotely as bad as Hitler, but there's no reason to associate with him or use his imagery either.
Deportation of Volga Germans to Kazakhstan, Russian Colonization of Prussia, and Polish Colonization of Pomerania, and Silesia.
Please don't trigger the tankie too much, he will now start derailing the thread with grover furr quotes.
and Crimean Tatars and Kalmyks
Fucking this. Never expected a Juche poster to be this coherent or correct.
This argument of "well, people approach us and ask about why we are celebrating Stalin and that's how we get talking to them about socialism :))" is shit. They aren't interested in socialism, they want to know why these idiots are parading a crazy dictator who died 60 years ago. And I don't care if Staling was a brutal dictator or not. That is simply how regular people think of him. Your kind "provocation" is shit and gets you nowhere.
How has this strategy workout for you the last 50+ years??? Where is your fucking vanguard? Where is your revolution? Who cares if they get rando delegates from the DPKR? I can guarantee that most normal people wont. Getting interviews in papers where you are paraded around as a joke is shit praxis. And do you really need to worship Stalin and co. for it to be proper socialist party? Why? He and other dead socialist statesmen don't matter in building socialism now. Your instance on Stalin and is just aesthetics, and really bad aesthetics at that.
This screams someone who became a communist through r/FC memes.
literally unrelated to the point he's making
The US sucks but for how long are you going to project all failures of LARP parties to that great boogieman? And how the fuck have socdems and anarchists been prospering in the US? They literally passed laws that made it basically legal to exile anarchists from the US. I mean for fucks sake: one of the reasons for May day was to remember Anarchists that where killed by american cops! Im not saying that MLs and Marxists haven't also been treated like shit in the US but its not a competition. Or are you seriously suggesting Anarchists and social democracy movements are plots by the US government?
Everything that isn't Hoxhaism is a plot by the CIA. Regular communists aren't perceived as a thread by the US government, but neckbeards waving a flag with Hoxha's or Stalin's face on it ( = ACTUALLY EXISTING marxist leninists) obviously are.
You know it's funny, I'm reading a big book on the history of the US Socialist Party and it seems like not only are the ultra-leftists and Leninists constantly attacking, splitting and causing drama, the state allows or encourages them while repressing the moderates.
The Wilson administration actively censored and prosecuted anarchists and the SPUSA while infiltrating and encouraging leftcoms and Leninists to denounce and split off, preventing them from forming a big party that could gain political power. Those same left-wingers were also often more pro-war and open to alliances with conservatives and the bourgeoisie. It's funny how things work out sometimes.
And not a single argument was found
If you think Stalin = Hitler you already bought into the usual anti-communist propaganda.
Yeah, I don't remember the Aztecs launching a genocidal war against the Spanish Empire trying to ethnically remove them from the face of the planet. Really bad examples, you could cry about the Chechen affair, but these guys were Nazi collaborators. Summa summarum, ethnic minorities had it a lot better under the Bolsheviks than under the Tsar, and it is no surprise that the majority of the political elite was part of a minority (something Zig Forums loves to harp on about), so the claim that Stalin was a Russian chauvinist the same way Hitler was an "Aryan" supremacist is beyond ridiculous.
Then why does it work for the alt-right praising people like Pinochet, Franco, Park Chung-hee and Salazar? Oh wait, let me guess, because they didn't kill gorillions and conservative fascism actually works unlike communism? The notion that Stalin is evil is 100% based on an anti-communist bias.
Bad argument considering no leftist tendency has achieved anything since decades - almost as if ideologies don't make revolutions on their own. Marxist-Leninists have some success in developing countries and they aren't shy of upholding Stalin as a great Marxist-Leninist. Go to Kerala or any center of the CPI (M) and you'll see Stalin pictures.
Nobody talks about worshipping Stalin, stop being an idiot. Mao criticized Stalin that didn't stop the CPC to carry Stalin banners. Why is that a litmus test? If a "communist" party is already willing to lie about the history of socialism and to shy away from uncomfortable topics (have any anti-Stalin communists being asked about Stalin and see them squirm), it is very likely that they are going to be revisionist anyway in a few year. Happened to literally any anti-Stalin tendency I know.
LARPing means role-playing as a political militant without doing anything substantial that could achieve the declared goals. In this sense it seems everything can nowadays legitimately be called LARPing because nothing can bring down the system anymore, not even viral propaganda or assassinations or destruction of infrastructure. More generally LARPing is any action that disregards strategy (or even the goals themselves) and is therefore ignorant of its own impotence. This ignorance is not coincidental since any analysis of the situation completely demoralizes the strategists. LARPing is therefore an unintended political comedy.
In most cases it is the LARPer that will believe alphabet soup is after him because in this way he convinces himself that he's a threat and therefore that his activity is meaningful. And it is usually those who recognize the impotence of the LARPer that will also consider alphabet soup to be a negligible reason for why we're stuck. LARPer is almost like a modern Don Quixote.
Again because a tiny fraction of Chechens were collaborates doesn’t make all Chechens collaborators, and doesn’t justify deporting them.
If we do this with Stalin/Mao we'll attract the leftist equivalent of Zig Forumstards, namely tankies like you, who think Stalin never did anything wrong and the Cultural Revolition should be repeated. Not people who are able to think constructively or do anything else than larping. We need something applicable to the current circumstances to attract actually useful people. Using the face of historical figures is always a risky choice. In the minds of many, it implies you want to repeat everything they were responsible for. No one except retarded tankies wants stalinism all over again. Besides, the positive things achieved under Stalin's rule were mostly due to socialism as an economical model rather than his personal actions, it's not like he made some brilliant innovation to Marxist theory, so why care about using his face. Where the fuck did I say that? Learn to read you fucking tankie faggot. God I swear if I could have any demographic shot, tankies would be the first ones and this is coming from a Marxist. Fucking neck yourself you brainlet scum I hope you die.
How detached from reality do you have to be to think that the aut-rights celebration of guys like Pinochet and Franco gave them popularity. The alt-right is by no means popular outside of niche online spaces and fringe political groups. And what little popularity they had with normal people wasn't their obsession with dead tyrants and dictators but rather their pandering to white-identity politics and the reaction against liberalism.
I think women will really turn to the Socialist Party when you tell them how many women Stalin and his command cadre raped and how cool that was for everyone.,
Rape is a necessary evil to build socialism. Being opposed to rape is the highest form of revisionism.
Imagine wanting to kill people that want the same end-goal as you instead of any other random selection of reactionaries first. I hate anarchists and think they're Utopians but I see them as a friendly group. LEFT UNITY
But they don't. All they will do is roleplay, wave a Hoxhaist Albanian flag and make the whole socialist movement look like retards living in a fantasy world. If anyone will render left unity impossible it is them.
I too am all for left unity but you can not have left unity if tankies keep publicly masturbating over the idea of massacring other leftists.
smelly dumb nazbol scum
Just Replace Albanian flag with *Any other Leftist flag* and you just described 90% of Marxists / Communists / Socialists / Anarchists in the first world regardless of tendency (Not a MTW dont worry)
I think it is one person who keeps posting this image over and over. #NotAllStateSocialists
Wrong. Look at the points the M-L flag brought up. They care more about restoring Stalin's legacy than about future revolutionary action and how to plan it in practical terms. It's what this whole thread is about.
Yes but even that can also be seen in Anarchists such as in the Hero worship of Mahkno Those Anarchists who supported Catalan separatism because Muh CNT-FIA 7 decades ago Etc
Anarchists have basically no political presence in my country asides from ANTIFA Rallies to BTFO the conservatards epic style
Yeah, there's LARPers in all leftist groups. Tankies are the LARPers of Marxism.
M-Ls are the only group of Marxists that have actually done anything worthwhile and that are actually doing anything in the world today, especially in the third world. Monarchist-flag (bootlicker flag) is the worst poster on this board
I don't have anything against M-Ls, stop strawmanning please.