Hello there I come with a big question that's been weighing on my mind recently and one that my agnostic friend has put to me many times, I'm hoping someone could weigh in as well as point me in the right direction for further information.
How are individuals that have never heard of the Christian faith or that Jesus died for our sins - and as such are subsequently unable to receive 'salvation' judged upon death?
Take for example the Aboriginal people of Australia who worshiped their tree spirits and what not for thousands of years before white contact. Or the Japanese [insert island nation here] with the worship of idols and pagan gods for thousands of years before contact with Europe. Both would be doing things that the God of the Bible explicitly states that he hates. But yet both groups of people were isolated from the major events and cultural developments of the rest of the world and had, and would not have for a long time, knowledge of Jesus Christ or the doctrines of Christianity.
Take also the second category of people - those that do have knowledge of the Christian faith but are raised/indoctrinated into other faiths and religions. Or for a more extreme example, the 18 year old Muslim kid that blows himself and a room of others up with the utmost belief he is going to be rewarded in their version of paradise. I would argue that kid had more 'faith' than a majority of modern Christians. He's faith was so strong it allowed him to over-ride his own instinct for self-preservation in order to commit the act. How is it fair to condemn someone who has been indoctrinated into a 'false' belief system. I mean look how friggen big Africa is - think of all the messed up voodoo demon worshiping that went, and is still, going on in there.. surely that stuff pisses God off pretty bad, are they going straight for hellfire?
This all ties into the big question that secular people ask: "which is the right religion" and a question that I can't find a logical or intellectual answer to especially when asked to people of faith that I know, albeit I haven't asked many. What do you guys think? Has anyone else approached this question before and can provide some clarity? I appreciate all responses and insights thank you.
I'd say, considering that people who died before the Crucifixion got their chance to hear the Gospel and be saved in the Harrowing of Hell, that something similar might happen to the people who remained ignorant out of no fault of their own. That doesn't apply imho to people who ignored self-evident truths, they are as they say without excuse.
Carson Morgan
If you are suggesting some sort of inherent moral code that was placed inside every human i.e. Human Conscience that is a separate debate (subjective vs objective morality). Also that does not really answer question.
Nicholas Nguyen
So for example the average Mongolian foot solider who had to retrieve ten human ears (10 kills) during the sacking of a city gets a second chance regardless of how many people they raped, tortured, murdered etc. because he didn't get the opportunity to know Christ?
Andrew Perry
Hell. I know it hurts your modern ideas of fairness but that's what scripture tells us.
Dylan Rogers
Completely and comprehensively righteously and with a full measure of justice and mercy.
Nothing more need be said about this because we truly do not know any more than this … EXCEPT … you, OP. You will have no excuse to say, "I could not know the good news of Christ", and what you know will be measured out to condemn you unless you repent and submit to Him. That Mongolian who never knew of Christ will have better odds than you who knew but refused Him.
The display of cognitive dissonance on this thread is quite shocking. I didn't expect these kind of cop out responses on what is meant to be a board of intellectuals.
Christopher Roberts
Correct me if I'm wrong but you are telling me that a Mongolian foot soldier that holds down and rapes a bunch of girls has a better chance at entering heaven than me simply on the basis that I have knowledge of Christ? Well in that case gee I wish I was born into a isolated tribe in Africa to maximize my chances at getting the softer end of judgement….
Julian Evans
Most likely hell, but probably not all. A counterargument is Gods foreknowledge and our own predestination (not necessarily double predestination) that will save his people. We are not born by chance, but by Gods eternal plan.
What did you expect? None of us has the insight of the apostles or anything that comes close to it. There are many mysteries, that are left unanswered in the bible.
Brandon Scott
I personally hope he gets a second chance. But, obviously, we don't know what perfect justice looks like, so who knows.
Joseph Fisher
Ok well I appreciate everyone's responses. Given there is so many things you do not know or are 'not revealed to us' what do many here base their faith on? To me it seems that many here are desperate to cling on to the notion of Heaven and a God in charge of their lives that they argue away concepts they can not reconcile or that directly challenge the foundation of their faith.
Evan Torres
Uhm, faith in Satan doesn't count sweetie. Going by your logic some atheists are perfectly "faithful" that death is dissolution
Yes, same as a mass murderer today has the chance to repent of his sins through christ, if said soldier was genuinely, perfectly repentant he could've gone to heaven.
Seems like you're the one giving cop out answers. His answer is entirely theologically defensible, God told us that only through him can we go to Heaven, and we know that god is completely just and merciful but we don't know his mind in this case. Christ is the unimpeachable witness, it's totally valid to say that we need only have faith that all are being treated perfectly justly. Also the fact that you've responded with just inane fedora-tier objections to more in depth answers like
why don't you just hit us with the tried and true
Maybe we'd put more effort into "reconciling" these oh so "challenging concepts" with our faith if they weren't a load of old ass that have been addressed a million times before.
To me it seems that many atheist faggots are so desperate to cling on to the notion that there's no Heaven or God in charge of their lives that they can't even take the time to come up with an original or well thought out argument, instead they just shit out a feeble rewording of an ancient one that's been done to death.
He will judge them perfectly and righteously, more so than any one of us. Don't forget that he's all powerful and all-knowing.
Luke 12:47-48 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Are you seriously suggesting that Christian's have a monopoly on belief in something greater than themselves? "Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof." This is one of the definition of Faith from the Oxford dictionary not (((my logic))), are you still prepared to say that Muslim kid didn't have 'Faith'?
Nice guess I'm just gonna go on a rape and murder spree but ask for a genuine, perfectly repentant forgiveness at the end.. oh wait you aren't allowed to do that because God knew your intentions from the start and it's a loophole.
When did I say or imply this?
When did I say or imply this?
If its been addressed a million times it must be extraordinarily easy for you to come up with an answer to the problem I've stated then?
Yes we do, John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Are you going to disregard this explicit statement in favor of a more palatable one that everyone gets 'reconciliation' in the end?
>To me it seems that many atheist faggots are so desperate to cling on to the notion that there's no Heaven or God in charge of their lives that they can't even take the time to come up with an original or well thought out argument…
If we are gonna argue on this premise we are going to around in a circle, lets stick to the original problem I presented to which you have not offered a single shred of insight or evidence that is your own.
Camden Hernandez
Thank you very much for your response and insight. This is the kind of information I was looking for.
How is the average African in his tribe meant to know what God or grace is without knowledge of Jesus or his forgiveness.
Same thing goes for that Mongolian example I gave, the only morality this guy knows is conquering = good, rape = fun and perfectly fine as a spoil of war and 'Sky Father that Rides in the Clouds' will welcome him for his good deeds in battle upon his death.
Nathaniel Sanchez
Why then are Christians so desperate to spread the message to the hearts of the deepest jungles, to the remote parts of Africa, and build up a big discipleship? I get that its the Gospel 'The Good News' but by giving of knowledge of Christ to some remote African tribe are you not introducing the chance that since they now have knowledge of this concept of 'sin' and that they are sinnners you are also introducing the chance that they may reject this new found knowledge and return to their tribal voodoo ways thus ensuring their rejection from heaven? Why not play it safe and let them be judged by God with a minimal knowledge of Christ?
Asher Edwards
As a noob I consider this to be a fair question so bump
Luke Brooks
He doesn't need to know what grace is in order for it to affect him.
About the second question, I don't know. Scripture seems to imply that everyone has God's law written in their hearts and a natural sense of morality, but I have lived my entire life with knowledge of God and the Church, so I have no experience of this and don't know what to think.
Caleb Brown
If God wanted them saved, he would have revealed Christ to them.
God could put all the people he know will reject Christ into one nation with his foreknowlege. This is all speculation though
Ian Long
Unbelievers are just sent to hell, whatever their reasons. The idiocy is of believing that God couldn't possibly harm a fly is contrasted by the fact that he genocided entire peoples without batting an eye. Stop being nice, be Christian instead.
Point to a single word that betrays this. You swallowed a dictionary but all it means is that you poop long words There are none so blind as they who refuse to see Just because it is brief does not mean it is not also pithy and brimming with truth. You want answers you will not receive because you would demand to call God to account. Sorry, fam, it doesn't work like that.
Romans 2:5-6 …Righteous judgement of God; who will render unto every man according to his deeds.
Christopher Walker
OP here, just want to thank everyone for their responses. I did not mean to portray my-self as some bloody minded individual speaking through willful blindness. Rather, I am aggressively searching the truth, so I apologize for any brashness in my conduct.
Of course if we are taking about a Creator of the known universe then my puny human brain won't be able to comprehend the grand scale of this endeavor however I also believe that if God gave me a brain with logic and critical thinking that I should use them. There is lots here to read and look over but I appreciate more responses and insights as to what others think on the matter.
Parker Barnes
Haha you are almost as edgy as me familia.
I don't wish for an argument here. I do not want to call God to account, but don't you think its fair to ask why the world is such a rubbish place? Admittedly yeah I do kind of get pissed when I think about the struggles of some impoverished village in Africa compared to our comfortable lifestyle in the West. Why do we deserve such comfort and luxury? We are just as shitty as them as human beings, where is the justice in this? These are the kinds of questions that trouble me immensely friend.
Xavier Torres
If you Christians are not going actively take part in the Great Commission, then start praying joshuaproject.net
God himself didn't judge past generations where there was no Law. When I say law I mean the law of God. The only ones who were and are judged WITHOUT LAW down to this day are those who sin against nature and the law of conscious. Sins against nature are sins that not even animals would do like cannibalism, human sacrifice, pedophilia, homosexuality, beastiality, child abuse, etc. Sins against conscience are lying, stealing, cheating, murder, persecution, ridicule, blaspheme, etc. Things that YOU would not want anyone to do back to you yet you do it happily to others.
Ryder Edwards
The Bible teaches that after the end of the world there will bet two resurrections: One of the righteous and one of unrighteous. One of faithful and one who committed vile things to be judged in the next system.
The Bible does acknowledge individuals around the world who never had a chance to know God and Christ. That's where the second resurrection comes in up above. The unrighteous resurrection will be for bad people who acted out of ignorance, mental illness, isolation, social and political engineering, etc. They will be brought back to life in the next system of Earth where no evil and no devil exist anymore. THEY will be judged under that system. If they can change they can stay, if they refuse they go back to eternal oblivion(SECOND DEATH.)
The murderers, pedophiles, rapist, thieves, blasphemers, JEWS, politicians, liars, fornicators, homosexuals of this current world have made their choice. This includes atheist who deep inside KNOW there is a God while on the surface fight ANYONE who tells them "God bless you." They automatically go to the SECOND DEATH.
Charles Jones
That people who never heard of Christ are even capable of creating good societies. Winnie you and winnie your blank slate stupidity that literally ruined the world. If you feel any sorry for divine justice over those who never heard of Christ, you don't believe in original sin and are not Christian. You believe in the noble savage garbage an are a modernist.
Isaiah Wood
*are not even Fuggg
Mason Green
I really hate to do this, but animals do do some of those: Some species of spiders (eating their mates) and various species of rodents (eating their babies) do this. This is awfully specific, and of course animals don't have intelligence to perform ritualistic acts. Chimpanzees have been known to engage in pedophilic acts. Bonobos, for one. Chimpanzees have been recorded sexually assaulting creatures of other species. This too.
Justin Wilson
Bonobos were known until the ghey revolution as pigmy chimps. And they are dumber and weaker than actual chimps. When a tribe of bonobos meet one of Chimps, the latter has not a single male down. They only survive in their little pocket of the Congo and live under a matriarchy.
They are not "for one", they are if anything a warning from God.
Hudson Stewart
And?
Cooper Nguyen
God is the one who planned it out, it wasn't an accident that they didn't come to know Christ or even hear about him. So he judges them accordingly. He's all-knowing and all-good…
Ayden Rodriguez
The bible suggests that, and that is not a separate "debate" that is the answer to your question. Read Romans. Those who weren't under the explicit law have an implicit law written in their hearts. Any other questions?
