First female F-16 demo team commander relieved of duty after two weeks

Jordan Phillips
Jordan Phillips

Capt. Zoe Kotnik, whose call sign was SiS, was announced with much fanfare as the first female pilot to head the F-16 Viper demonstration team on Jan. 29. Labeled the real life "Wonder Woman" at the ceramony, she was relieved of command Monday due to a loss of confidence in her ability to lead and command.
archive.is/pHuN2
airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/02/12/first-female-viper-demo-team-pilot-relieved-after-two-weeks/

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books.google.de/books?id=i6dCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=cowards fools inauthor:William inauthor:Francis inauthor:Butler&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UQjKULnhMc200QHQ1oD4Bw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=cowards fools inauthor:William inauthor:Francis inauthor:Butler&f=false
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7437034/US-Navy-crews-mutiny-against-the-Sea-Witch-captain-who--belittled-them.html
archive.fo/cA4h3
articles.latimes.com/1994-10-27/news/mn-55338_1_dagny-hultgreen
archive.fo/7re1b
aim.org/publications/aim_report/1997/09b.html
archive.is/6KXkb
web.archive.org/web/20160530063334/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/female-b-52-pilot-quits-over-charges-of-adultery-1262385.html
theothermccain.com/2018/06/17/tip-pentagon-covering-up-fact-that-female-officers-nearly-sank-navy-ship/
archive.fo/evN2h
japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/08/24/national/japan-sees-first-woman-qualify-f-15-fighter-jet-pilot/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims

Dominic Rodriguez
Dominic Rodriguez

I'd relieve my duty on her face

Easton Gutierrez
Easton Gutierrez

Despite gommunism, we don't let wymyn fly our jets. We do unfortunately let them fly choppers though.

Christian Reed
Christian Reed

Imagine going through rigorous training, actual combat sorties and then being put in a demonstration squad and having to take orders from some grating high-pitched whumyn who acts like hot shit because >first female

Gabriel Parker
Gabriel Parker

This was the work of Mihaly Dumitru Margareta Corneliu Leopold Blanca Karol Aeon Ignatius Raphael Maria Niketas A. Shilage.

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Jeremiah Miller
Jeremiah Miller

Well, at least they bullied her back into submission and she quit

Sebastian Kelly
Sebastian Kelly

F-16V not Vagina-compatible

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Noah Phillips
Noah Phillips

The state of modern military saddens me.

Lincoln Richardson
Lincoln Richardson

Good one.

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Aaron Butler
Aaron Butler

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Evan Butler
Evan Butler

If you read the article her commanders 'lost confidence' in her ability to lead the team after a series of mistakes that they won't give the details on. Presumably it didn't involve a fatality, as I'm pretty sure that even in Wiemar America those are matters of public record - what sort of non-lethal fuck up would cost a PR friendly, face of their ad campaigns, diversity officer her position?

Mason Butler
Mason Butler

first female to go through Ranger school had confirmed assistance
first female led Marine squad was determined combat ineffective
now this

When will real Men learn not to make the same mistakes anymore?

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Ryan Williams
Ryan Williams

When the globohomo-era ends.

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Jaxon Walker
Jaxon Walker

They probably found her in the barracks sucking off all her men.

Nathaniel Jenkins
Nathaniel Jenkins

Even if we allowed women to fly combat jets in order to prevent squads from being sausagefests one should never allow women at leading roles, it's not only potentially catastrophic due to females' bad decisions but also taking orders from a woman is greatly demoralizing.

Brayden Bailey
Brayden Bailey

Just don't allow women. It's not that hard.
The only time you can is if they had one dimension less in most cases.

Christopher Taylor
Christopher Taylor

I'd imagine her ego would be so big it was in danger of collapsing under its own weight - she'd think it was 'beneath herself' to fuck her subordinates (and probably saw it as beneath herself to treat them like human beings - going from what I've seen of female managers so far). If she was sucking anyones cock it would be the senior officer who promoted/championed her. Maybe she stopped sucking his cock and that's what lead to the demotion? It would either be that or a string of screwups so major that they decided she was doing more harm than they could justify for her PR value.

Justin Fisher
Justin Fisher

That quote should not be attributed to Thucydides. The first recorded use of that saying was in a book written by Sir William Francis Butler.
books.google.de/books?id=i6dCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=cowards fools inauthor:William inauthor:Francis inauthor:Butler&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UQjKULnhMc200QHQ1oD4Bw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=cowards fools inauthor:William inauthor:Francis inauthor:Butler&f=false

Nathaniel Nelson
Nathaniel Nelson

brap on that hOh SiS

Owen Reed
Owen Reed

We'll get the JoJ done right.

Liam Morgan
Liam Morgan

OVER AND OVER AGAIN

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7437034/US-Navy-crews-mutiny-against-the-Sea-Witch-captain-who--belittled-them.html
archive.fo/cA4h3

articles.latimes.com/1994-10-27/news/mn-55338_1_dagny-hultgreen
archive.fo/7re1b
aim.org/publications/aim_report/1997/09b.html
archive.is/6KXkb

web.archive.org/web/20160530063334/https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/female-b-52-pilot-quits-over-charges-of-adultery-1262385.html

theothermccain.com/2018/06/17/tip-pentagon-covering-up-fact-that-female-officers-nearly-sank-navy-ship/
archive.fo/evN2h

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Bentley Long
Bentley Long

the first foundation repair YTP was uploaded almost 9 years ago

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Matthew Gonzalez
Matthew Gonzalez

They keep pushing women into male roles and positions
"This is a HUGE STEP FORWARDS!"
"Don't you know it's the current year!"
Consistent, and now almost inevitable fuckups. All the time, every time.
Each incident gets memory holed as soon as it happens so that they can prepare for the next time, which will definitely be the one that works.
What would it actually take to get the people who believe in this to realise that it only fails? At this point it looks like a small nuclear war wouldn't be enough.

Lincoln Moore
Lincoln Moore

You answered your own question.
We need a large nuclear war. Then just muderrape the survivors who didn't learn.

Nicholas Cruz
Nicholas Cruz

that fucking shit nip game
Why was it even relevant to tell us a long ass name like that?

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Wyatt Powell
Wyatt Powell

Wasn't looking for a solution, more wondering what sort of cataclysm would be needed to go beyond the point where they can rationalise it away/conveniently forget it ever happened.

Henry Sanchez
Henry Sanchez

Women have absolutely no place in any military.

William Ortiz
William Ortiz

This
They can be sex slaves though.

Kayden Butler
Kayden Butler

As long as they can fit the same standards as men can I think they should be OK. But that would require the military to actually enforce physical standards in recruiting, which is not going to happen with the current recruiting problems.
The only problem that would remain after the army starts doing that would be pregnancies and STDs. Dunno what to do about those.

Michael Long
Michael Long

Allow the 3% of women who can meet quals to enlist, enforce dishonourable discharge for both the man and the woman if they fraternise, and if necessary have women be relegated to all-female units.

Adrian Thompson
Adrian Thompson

The big difficulty with all-female units is what you do with them.
If you're perceived as sending them into danger too much, people will screech that you're treating women as too disposable. If you're perceived as holding them back from danger, then people will screech that you're giving them unfair special treatment compared to male units that are supposed to be treated the same. Most likely you'd hear both at the same time, regardless of how true either actually was.

Jace Diaz
Jace Diaz

If you're perceived as sending them into danger too much, people will screech that you're treating women as too disposable
Forgot to add the additional drawback of female losses potentially being a larger morale hit than male, body-for-body. Especially if they're captured alive.

Ryan Fisher
Ryan Fisher

Never interrupt your enemy from doing a mistake.

Carter Lopez
Carter Lopez

Psychological deficiencies of wymin are way more severe than their physical ones.

Sometimes you just have to napalm the shit out of that non-White orphanage.

Jaxon Martinez
Jaxon Martinez

As long as they can fit the same standards as men can I think they should be OK.
Men don't bleed out of their crotch every month.

Sebastian Robinson
Sebastian Robinson

As long as they can fit the same standards as men can I think they should be OK
Imagine STILL falling for this myth.

Lincoln Phillips
Lincoln Phillips

What about Japans 'comfort women' That seems to indicate a positive, and possibly necessary, role that women could play at least for the military.

At this point the enemy's mistake is harming us. Should we still not interrupt it?

As long as they can fit the same standards as men can I think they should be OK
Great. They've already been demanding a separate and much much lower standard for women to be 'fair'. This has been going on for years (potentially a decade or more at this point, it's hard to pin down a definitive start date), it's become unavoidably clear that only the upper ~0.0001 of the top percentile can manage that.

But that would require the military to actually enforce physical standards in recruiting
So that's never, for as long as the military remains a political issue.

The only problem that would remain after the army starts doing that would be pregnancies and STDs. Dunno what to do about those.
So the military should take their female recruits, sterilise them, and put them on a mandatory and monitored daily dose of testosterone to keep them 'up to spec' for the duration of their service?

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Jeremiah Bennett
Jeremiah Bennett

What about Japans 'comfort women' That seems to indicate a positive, and possibly necessary, role that women could play at least for the military.
whore earning more than highest ranking officers
good
Also, children and husbands of korean comfort women now run a raparations racket that's holocauster cinematic universe™ lite.

Gavin Gonzalez
Gavin Gonzalez

We live in 2018
That women belong in every field and at every level is still up for discussion
in a time where people are both educated and enlightened
says a lot about those who ask questions like these

The inmates are running the asylum.

Jack Garcia
Jack Garcia

link for those two?

Nathaniel Myers
Nathaniel Myers

Pretty sure it was just to show that he wuz KANGZ and shieeet

Woman should only ever be nurses. Even with a passing physical grade, integrated squads suffer a huge loss of unit cohesion and effectiveness as the men fight to protect the women with their uncontrollable instinct we evolved to have and women fight each other because its what they do. I would hesitate to even trust them with a seemingly lower risk job like cargo, tanker, AWACS or maritime patrol plane crew because of shit like cat fights causing the Fitzgerald collision because the CIC officer was having a cat fight with the navigator.

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Thomas Wilson
Thomas Wilson

So the military should take their female recruits, sterilise them, and put them on a mandatory and monitored daily dose of testosterone to keep them 'up to spec' for the duration of their service?
Just sentence the barren female convicts to unpaid life military services with cyanide injection collars. The problem solved.

Logan Thomas
Logan Thomas

Providing deployed soldiers with whores isn't, in itself, a bad idea. The Japs fucking it up does not disprove this.

Conscripted prisoners generally aren't all that reliable, and do you really want a new generation of commissars running around and making other units lives hell? "Just don't give them authority over other units!", yes, because every officer ever always sticks to their exact purview and never acts like a cunt just because they can

Brandon Ortiz
Brandon Ortiz

You don’t need to put them in the front line. Just give the menial jobs that can give military force profits so they can use the profits to buy the military stuffs.

Camden Bailey
Camden Bailey

When will real Men learn not to make the same mistakes anymore?
When an actual war against a country that can fight back breaks out and forces the US military to be effective (or the US losing a war that affected the home front in the form of lost territory, because of politics preventing efficient military command).

Either a sex scandal or she nearly killed people repeatedly but thankfully didn't get anything that would appear in public records (or she did and the military covered it up because they do that).

Daniel Johnson
Daniel Johnson

Generally the females they put in charge won't suck off their own men because they think they're above them. Now sucking off a room of officers, however…
Honestly even doing something like going to a rave can get you in serious shit in the Chairforce from what I recall. I know an embassy marine who got a promotion because he caught a Colonel at a rave and looked the other way.

Eli Gonzalez
Eli Gonzalez

Forgot to add the additional drawback of female losses potentially being a larger morale hit than male, body-for-body. Especially if they're captured alive.
This, honestly. An enemy force can take as many POWs as they want and do terrible, terrible things to them, and post it all over social media, and the public reaction will be to sigh. If a female combat force was ever taken prisoner and a rape video or some such was posted, it would be heads exploding across just about any country and a giant shit storm.

Angel Jenkins
Angel Jenkins

2 weeks
So was it utter incompetence? They give female incompetence some major leeway so it being 2 weeks implies it was more than just incompetence of command. The base CO also said "she made a mistake".
female
command
she made a mistake
Now that could be a lot of stuff but then I rememeber…
AIRFORCE
The airforce has somehow managed to actually become more pozzed than the navy. In such a pozzed environment the phrase "she made a mistake" seems like very clumsy pc shit. Which, if thats the case, that would mean that the mistake that she made was something that most people would find absolutely disgusting behavior.

didnt read the whole op post
whose call sign was SiS
Yup I am correct.

Anthony James
Anthony James

This, honestly. An enemy force can take as many POWs as they want and do terrible, terrible things to them, and post it all over social media, and the public reaction will be to sigh. If a female combat force was ever taken prisoner and a rape video or some such was posted, it would be heads exploding across just about any country and a giant shit storm.

We've literally seen this play out with that whore.. what was her name? lynch? First off there was a huge fucking thing about it. Guys were getting taken alive and tortured and executed quite frequently, but oh no no no some dumb whore who shouldnt have been allowed there in the first place got captured by sand niggers. It was covered every second of every day. And then there was the rescue raid. I forget exactly how many casualties there were but they were significant considering it was SpecOp raid. I remember when it first happened there were a lot of rumors that a lot of the rangers who were assisting with the raid completely disregarded their training and ran toward the objective as if it were their own mother being tortured.

Hunter Russell
Hunter Russell

giving dumb whores more coddling will make people coddle them less
just let them get raped

Jacob Hill
Jacob Hill

Except there was no "rescue" since she was safe in an Iraqi hospital.

Nolan Watson
Nolan Watson

this tbh

Owen Scott
Owen Scott

Imagine how shit you have to be to get relieved after 14 days

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Liam Ward
Liam Ward

Either a sex scandal or she nearly killed people repeatedly but thankfully didn't get anything that would appear in public records (or she did and the military covered it up because they do that).
14 days though. That sounds almost like she was coming into work black out drunk, calling her CO 'fuckface' in official paperwork, and physically assaulting the men put under her command.

Hudson Lee
Hudson Lee

Possible. She could have also almost crashed her or another pilot's plane due to deliberate orders she gave despite knowing it was incompetent to do so. Planes are expensive.

Alexander Perry
Alexander Perry

Except there was no "rescue" since she was safe in an Iraqi hospital.
Are you trying to imply that the rescue of the lynch whore was mandela effected? There was a big raid on some compound that resulted in numerous casualties.

Owen Myers
Owen Myers

14 days though. That sounds almost like she was coming into work black out drunk, calling her CO 'fuckface' in official paperwork, and physically assaulting the men put under her command.
For attitude that's about what it would take. That or she said "what a bunch of monkeys" talking about nigger ground crews.
She could have also almost crashed her or another pilot's plane due to deliberate orders she gave despite knowing it was incompetent to do so.
On a professional level that would be not even be it. That would earn you an official reprimand (career killer) and chalked off to inexperience in a new position. You need to kill someone to get sacked from a political position. Unless her CO was a women, she would have to have done that several times in two weeks, to justify such extreme.

Josiah Campbell
Josiah Campbell

Pretty sure it was just to show that he wuz KANGZ and shieeet
That's what happens when you don't know when "too much" is too much. It turned a serious cutscene in to a shits and giggles fest. Thus, ruining the intended atmosphere. That's the thing with nips, they've never heard of the concept of brevity. Felt like I was watching a fanfiction with some deepest lore.

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Nathaniel Rodriguez
Nathaniel Rodriguez

ace combat
serious

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Colton Allen
Colton Allen

Look on the bright side, she didn't get anybody killed.

Xavier Gonzalez
Xavier Gonzalez

As far as we know, anyway.

Oliver Collins
Oliver Collins

She probably killed 60 gorillion in just a few swallows

Sebastian Ross
Sebastian Ross

A serious war. Not like bombing mud people, but an actual battle between first world nations where effective combat mattered and replacing lost men mattered even more. Anything less than motherhood propaganda will fail.

Carson Sanders
Carson Sanders

What we need is men and women in the army so we have to dig twice as many toilets, build twice as many cabins to sleep in and fuck up logistics and cargo space so we can carry more tampons and birth control.
Then we only have to deal with the massive psychological differences, the physical differences and the larping retards who think this is a good idea.

Only a Jerry could think of something this stupid. No one else was raised to hate themselves quite that much.

Liam Sanchez
Liam Sanchez

They can work as medical staff. Nurses are useful for doing the cleaning, basic support work and giving the men passing through a little relief. Force them on birth control and have a stern man in charge and they will do a fine service.

Caleb Cruz
Caleb Cruz

So that's never then. A war between first world powers (with all the alliances and nukes involved) would end with both sides getting absolutely wrekt the moment one side thinks it's starting to lose. When first world nations want to fuck each other over they don't invade each other, they do economic shit at their enemies and fund terrorists/separatist groups either in the target country or their sphere of influence. We've seen the last of the big wars.

Military nurses tend to become walking STD archives pretty swiftly, they'd need to be on regular rotations between work and recovery, and under pretty much daily sexual health checks while they're in country. It's why I suggested comfort women earlier. It seems that women in the military who aren't given authority often (and rather quickly) become the units fuckhole; so it would make more sense to make that their actual job, select for it, and put them on a program designed to get them preforming that function as effectively as possible.

Nathaniel Cook
Nathaniel Cook

They are not at home birthing white babies? Then everything is great.

Brandon Barnes
Brandon Barnes

She could have and the military just covered it up.

Juan Evans
Juan Evans

Callsign SiS
Slut in Service
Noice.

Logan Sanchez
Logan Sanchez

That's incredibly hard to do in burgerland because of the press and almost everything being public record. Someone die in a plane crash? Press would know. Someone die from an explosion? Press would know. Someone die in an incredibly off way where nobody would really know? The family members tip off the press. Granted, the MSM would try to cover it up, some small local news stations/radio stations/newspaper would usually have something.

Carson Sanchez
Carson Sanchez

What
is alluding to is the quality of women. There genuinely are women capable of serving, although there aren't many. Most of them are of the opinion that "it's different if I do it", which doesn't work in a just society, much less a combat formation.

I really wish you could do studies on how well all female vs all male vs mixed platoons could work. Although I could imagine a harem type, i.e. all female with male NCO, would be a ticking bomb for PR, judging by most reports on all female companies. I bet that NCO would end up having to pay a lot of child support too.

Maybe some french anons can verify this, but I thought the french fly whores out to their FOBs and so on, where they live in special pink containers?

So instead of getting a ship shot at in the gulf of Tonkin, you could release rape videos once a day to verify marching in to a country of your choosing? I have a feeling that a US special forces time consisting entirely of women will be arrested in a foreign country next time the US needs a scrap.

Military medical training facilities should be renamed to guarded brothels.

Juan Cox
Juan Cox

the french fly whores out to their FOBs and so on, where they live in special pink containers?
That sounds absolutely retarded but I believe it

Elijah Jenkins
Elijah Jenkins

They did during the first vietnam war if I recall. Bunch of algerians and local viet whores got captured at Dien Bien Phu

Alexander Miller
Alexander Miller

The best thread to get this reference from.
If I had to do it all over again, I would do it all over again.

Christian Baker
Christian Baker

is alluding to is the quality of women. There genuinely are women capable of serving, although there aren't many.
There aren't. The few that can pass the standards are not worth it in integrating in the unit.

No tampon cost is worth for any female.

Andrew Edwards
Andrew Edwards

japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/08/24/national/japan-sees-first-woman-qualify-f-15-fighter-jet-pilot/

1st Lt. Misa Matsushima, 26, has become Japan’s first woman to qualify as a fighter jet pilot in the nation’s Air Self-Defense Force (ASDF).

“My longtime dream has come true. I want to become a fully-fledged pilot, no different from men, as soon as possible,” said Matsushima after a ceremony Thursday at an ASDF base in Miyazaki Prefecture, marking the completion of a training course to become an F-15 fighter pilot.

According to the ASDF, Matsushima, who completed the course alongside five men, is expected to start work piloting F-15s in six to 12 months, after undergoing further training to qualify for scrambling the jet to intercept aircraft intruding into Japan’s airspace.

“I hope she will continue to blaze that difficult path and become a role model for women who aspire to become fighter pilots,” said Osamu Uemori, who taught her on the training course.

A Yokohama native, Matsushima joined the ASDF after graduating from the National Defense Academy in March 2014. After obtaining her pilot’s license in October 2016, she continued to work toward becoming a fighter pilot.

Matsushima will be assigned to the 5th Air Wing at the Nyutabaru Air Base in the prefecture on Friday and will continue her training there.

With the Defense Ministry aiming to double the number of female Self-Defense Force members, it has been easing restrictions to allow women to effectively work in all fields. The ASDF abolished gender restrictions on personnel becoming fighter and reconnaissance aircraft pilots in November 2015.

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Jace Kelly
Jace Kelly

Misa Matsushima
, 26
How are they expecting her to pilots things at that age?

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Cameron Gomez
Cameron Gomez

Get flayed.

Hunter Clark
Hunter Clark

The state of your military gladdens me, knowing that in a few centuries Israels lapdog can't protect them anymore

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Caleb Barnes
Caleb Barnes

Can't wait for the JewSA military to be completely weak.
At that point, it'll be a free for all for raiding and looting military bases. Wouldn't mind bringing home a M2HB and some fancy ammo for it.

Connor Hughes
Connor Hughes

it'll be a free for all for raiding and looting military bases
By that point won't all the gear (or at least the good stuff) have been sold/stolen by the army to cover unpaid wages/senior officers retirement funds?

Parker Foster
Parker Foster

Or funneled off to third world countries or to private land estates of high ranking officers who "retired" into a position at Lockheeb, yeah.

Jaxon Perry
Jaxon Perry

Singapore too

Landon Harris
Landon Harris

Poland

Carson Phillips
Carson Phillips

With the Defense Ministry aiming to double the number of female Self-Defense Force members, it has been easing restrictions to allow women to effectively work in all fields. The ASDF abolished gender restrictions on personnel becoming fighter and reconnaissance aircraft pilots in November 2015.
I hope they all crash in to each other. Women can't drive, and they sure as hell can't fly. We should have an all female aerobatic team, it'll be a literal blast.

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Jaxon Rodriguez
Jaxon Rodriguez

Fortunately for us, our air force is still not big enough to have woman pilots yet.

Jacob Jenkins
Jacob Jenkins

I can still only dream about the politicians and the top brass coming to their senses, so that they get rid of our air force in favour of ground based AA. They already bought artillery and that AA system that uses the very same missiles that the Gripens are equipped with. Now someone just have to make a few connections and then take a look at our budget and the cost of these various systems.

Wyatt Richardson
Wyatt Richardson

And why would you get rid of our airforce? We wouldn't be able to start an effective military offense without them. We should raise the number of our airforce, not make it cease to exist.

Levi Stewart
Levi Stewart

And why would you get rid of our airforce?
Because it's not a necessity of war, just a very expensive luxury that you don't even need most of the time. Let's take a look at the rôles of the air force:
<shooting down enemy aircraft
During ww2 and most of the Cold War you really needed aircraft to deal with aircraft, simply because rocketry wasn't up to the task. But that changed, and today a missile launched from a ground is just as effective against enemy aircraft as a missile launched from an airplane.
<strategic bombing
A complete fucking meme. It originates from ww2, but looking back the bombing of factories just meant that every day around the same time the workers stopped, went to their shelters, and then went back right to work after the bombers dropped their load. Bombing the civilians didn't destroy their moral either, even after whole cities were burned to the ground. What worked was taking out infrastructure: in Germany factories still churned out war matériel, their production hit its peak in 1944. But their railway junctions were constantly bombed, so they couldn't get it to the front lines. If you want to repeat this feat today, then take a whole lot of tactical missiles, target all brigdes, railway stations, power plants, and similar key parts of the enemy's infrastructure, and you can push them back to the stone age with a single strike. Although at that point you might as well just use nuclear weapons. After all, the only time the bombing of civilians really worked was when they nuked Japan. But even then, they had to do it twice in a row.
<CAS
Maybe it sounds nice that the infantrymen just sit in cover when an A-10 flies in and BRRRRRRRRs the enemy. But iif they have to rely on that all the time, then your infantry is inept, because it can't do its job. They either don't have the firepower to deal with the enemy, or the élan to take risks and attack. So they will be completely useless without air support. In addition, it requires specialized aircraft and good coördination between the infantry and the air force. Even small mistakes can result in friendly-fire incidents if the pilot mistakes friendly and enemy forces. Just read this heart-warming list:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims
It's much better to integrate support fire with the infantry, e.g. give them more mortars and guided missiles.
<precision bombing
It lies between the previous two categories, so it has the problems of both of them. The US of A have been flying drones over the Middle East for quite a while, and they used up quite a lot of Hellfire missiles. The results? The number of civilians killed for every tonne of ordnance dropped is higher than ever before. They bomb random civilians just as often as actual terrorists/freedom fighters/whatevers. It's only useful if you use it to take out an enemy strongpoint that is slowing down you ground forces. But if you want to do that then there is a better way: in the 90s Serbs took some standard aircraft bombs, strapped wings and rocket motors on them, and made glide bombs that weight 250-500kg. And not that long ago they put GPS systems on them, therefore now they can do this whole precision bombing thing without any actual aircraft.
<reconnaissance
In this time and age it's a waste of time and effort to buy an expensive aircraft and train a pilot just to take some photos and videos from the sky, because a drone can do that much cheaper and efficiently. And you can integrate drones with the ground forces, simply because smaller ones need a lot less infrastructure.
<transportation
It requires transport aircraft, not fighter jets.
<patrolling over wide areas bereft of civilization
It includes flying over places like Siberia and Alaska, and also patrolling over the seas. This is where manned aircraft still shine, because a squadron of them is still more efficient than building a network of small bases or building a gigantic fleet of seaworthy patrol boats. But this doesn't concern us, because the Hortobágy is not the Sahara, and the Balaton is not a proper sea.

We wouldn't be able to start an effective military offense without them.
If you want an effective military offensive, then you need an army. By an army I mean a proper one that has whole divisions, a military industry to support it, and a great number of reservists to replace the fallen. Currently we don't have even a single division, our military industry just started producing small arms, and our reserve system is a joke. Do you honestly believe that wasting a lot of money on expensive toys like aircraft will help us?

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Xavier Gray
Xavier Gray

Having an air force means you stop playing war and just win. If you can whiz by and blow an enemy location away with zero causalities you just achieved a huge victory.

The infantry isn't in ept for letting a superior strategy win out. They don't need to run in and die to achieve minor victories which are important but small scale.

Owen Reyes
Owen Reyes

this ground is too soft

Joseph Long
Joseph Long

CAS is not worthwhile because infantry are supposed to kill things on the ground
0 IQ

Andrew Cox
Andrew Cox

what about having BOTH airforce and a good ground side capabilities?

Landon Morales
Landon Morales

"Our army and airforce is weak, underfunded and we don't have a functioning military industry. What should we do,,?
"Well, we could raise the budget of the army (because we don't even fulfill the NATO requirements in this regard), buy more fighters and spend more of income of the country on building military industry instead of building plebball stadiums and fund the welfare of g*psies,,?
"Nah, just dismantle the airforce and just buy AA rockets. What could possibly go wrong?,,
This.

James Harris
James Harris

Magyarbros, we really need you guys to have a developed military for taking back Europe from the mudslimes after the Jewnited States becomes too weak to do anything.

Chase Evans
Chase Evans

Well, that's a hell of a lot of responsibility you're putting on our shoulders…

Kayden Allen
Kayden Allen

I only understand things in a linear fashion. I don't grasp the idea dynamic or kinetic action in maneuver or combined arms warfare in the least and I still think First Generational Warfare strategy is effective. This is mostly because I sit here in my bedroom looking through Osprey picture books, larping on a Tanzanian Carpet Weaving BSS, and have a self-erected complex that makes me think I have the mind of Rommel.

Hunter Mitchell
Hunter Mitchell

Why don't you try to actually debate what I wrote if you disagree with me so much? It shouldn't be that hard to pick it apart if it's so wrong.

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William Long
William Long

To refute what you wrote would be like refuting a 1st grader when he says automatic rifles increase the rate of war at 600 percent. It's meaningless. Yes, aircraft can injure their own guys… as can infantry. You lack even the most basic understanding of anything, and I literally mean anything, military related. Not even military related, what you wrote could be refuted by a wheelchair bound babbling retard, who more likely than not has more common sense than you. You literally don't understand the concept of air superiority, and you think that CAS is useless because "the infantry will rely on it all the time". If you told me that you were in elementary school, I would believe you.
Your next move will be to say that you were only pretending to be retarded

Logan Watson
Logan Watson

So you are less useful than a wheelchair bound babbling retard, because you can't even refute what I wrote.

Aaron Reyes
Aaron Reyes

our military industry just started producing small arms
See the thing is, what I could do is explain the concept of government armories and arsenals, how private contracting works, what 'bidding' means, what 'batches' mean, how small arms tests are done and how they get accepted, and how we don't actually have a "military industry" in the first place like you think we do. Or, I could just call you a retard and laugh at you.

You're a retard and I'm laughing at you.

Grayson Phillips
Grayson Phillips

You have been refuted multiple times. If you control the skies you can destroy any land target at any point you wish. Same for the sea for the most part. You can constantly monitor the enemy and avoid ambushes and letting them make bases and dig themselves in.

Air control is the defining part of modern warfare. Nothing is as useful on a mass scale. Infantry is needed to hold ground, but infantry is very bad at things aircraft excel at. Namely going really fucking fast and blowing shit up with zero chance of being attacked back.

Jaxson Russell
Jaxson Russell

You're not looking for a debate, what you want is someone to engage you directly so you can just shitpost more. No one needs to refute the shit you posted, it's "refuted" by every non-fictional military doctrinal text published post-1910, try fucking reading one. You can't even differentiate between political policy, military policy, and foreign policy.

Jason Butler
Jason Butler

You're thinking area denial as a viable air defense strategy. It's not.
There are multiple points that are valid, like the rather atrocious civie/enemy kill rate, but not moving in to an area that you sucessfully deny the enemy is not a sound idea, especially if it gives you massive advantages.

Lets construct a scenario here:
You're thinking about defensive, not offensive wars. With your location, you're susceptible to a russian attack, followed by insurgent mussie forces, followed by China and at the end of the line a US attack.
I'm deliberately leaving out the EU, as fun as
muh belkan clay!
memeing might be, german boomers are militant pacifists and most of them like neither the syria conflict involvement, the afghanistan conflict involvement or the KFOR involvement of the Bundeswehr. Mali has not made huge waves here yet, so not a lot of complaints about that one.

Now, shooting down enemy aircraft:
Very very difficult if they have standoff HARM missiles. The moment you switch on the radar to search for aircraft you can't see/hear, you're susceptible to a HARM missile. IR missiles, mostly MANPADs, are only viable to 6km height, roundabout. Bombers at 10k would operate with impunity.

strategic bombing
war is logistics, and logistics are killed by strategic bombing. This is not debatable, anything else is bait.

CAS
US infantry has been known to have a lot of experience, but not a great training track record compared to EU forces, partially because the amount of capability they entrust their low level enlisted. However, the elevated gun position of an aircraft is immensely useful, as even special forces were very open to the idea of using an armed SuperTucano as CAS - they really liked the loiter time too. The main advantage of a pilot in the loop is the fact that a pilot is still more capable of differentiating between friendlies and enemies than an AI - My guess would be that Air superiority will be fought out by drones in the future, while CAS due to its danger close properties will be handled by humans for some time to come.

precision bombing
sure you can niggerrig a glide bomb, but if you fire a rocket on the ground while the enemy has air superiority, there is a high likelyhood of them spotting the exhaust plume, following it to its origin and hellfireing that spot. Reapers are cheap.

aerial recon drones
LockMart recently lost one to Iran, some super secret squirrel one from Skunkworks. The Iranians supposedly just spoofed the GPS. How the drone did not continue on its INS, i do not know.

patrolling over wide areas
hungary
correct me if i'm wrong, but your country is fairly big.

Fighter planes are a tool for show of force. Buzz someone with a fighter jet or intercept them, they'll stop doing stupid things, like flying in to your country in a Tu 95. It's not MAD, its more showing "I have this universally respected tool of air warfare. Now stop, or else."
You could send up a heap of drones, but the moment the russians with their faible for EWarfare figure out how to mess with them, you're fucked.
Same if they happen upon a situation that the designer did not anticipate - the drone will just do nothing in the best of cases.
SItuation unclear? A pilot will investigate and act in the spirit of his orders, while having a tactical and strategic picture in mind.

The drone will most likely be unpredictable.

look at map to make sure i didn't mess up the size and neighbours of your country
how the FUCK is Romania bigger than Hungary? Jesus Christ, are you even relevant to anyone these days? Austria seems bigger and literally no one gives a fuck about them.

At any rate, I wouldn't worry about anyone invading you, you're too close for comfort to poland for russia( not that the VDV wouldn't pull a Crimea on you guys if they wanted), You're already practically assimilated in to the EU, which takes the US off the table and China does not give a fuck about you yet. They'll probably get along better with Romania at any rate.

So as far as your defense strategy is concerned, integration in to EU defense is probably your best bet, since if the russians decide to come, you'll either be fighting on a frontline outside of your country, supplied by EU countries as well, or taken over in a 12h or less raid by VDV in plainclothes/greenbean kit, which is very, very difficult to defend against if they're doing it right.
The need for a good strategy for your country alone goes out the window in both cases, as you've either already lost or are going to be integrated in to a european theater command, where systems commonality will be very helpful for logistics - unless its susceptible to (sigh) cyberwarfare.

That word is so fucking cringey.

Jordan Reed
Jordan Reed

Only an M2? Have you no imagination. Think big, you could have a nuclear aircraft carrier parked in the barn.

Brody Miller
Brody Miller

I wonder if nuclear powered aircraft will ever be a thing again, they'd sure make for some handy long-range AWACs patrol drones.

Camden Wilson
Camden Wilson

You're thinking area denial as a viable air defense strategy. It's not.
I don't see why is that, but more on that later.
ery very difficult if they have standoff HARM missiles. The moment you switch on the radar to search for aircraft you can't see/hear, you're susceptible to a HARM missile.
Assuming that you don't do what the Serbs did back in the 90s to avoid that exact same problem. You know, those memeworthy stories with microwaves and advanced optical camouflag read: hiding in the bushes and setting up some dummies. And even if you go full retard like Middle Easterners tend to do, you can still hurt the enemy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_combat_losses_of_United_States_military_aircraft_since_the_Vietnam_War#1991_(Operation_Desert_Shield/Desert_Storm)
That's a surprisingly long list if we consider that they used rusty soviet systems from the 60s and 70s. It looks like that aircraft aren't capable of "going really fucking fast and blowing shit up with zero chance of being attacked back".
In addition, active phased array radars are supposed to be a lot less suspectible to anti-radiation missiles, and modern AA system (should) use that. Of course, the problem is that we won't know how true it is until they are tested in a real war.
war is logistics, and logistics are killed by strategic bombing. This is not debatable, anything else is bait.
But the idea of just flying into a country and randomly dropping bombs at everything you think is a target is just a meme. Let me repeat myself: if you want to strategially bomb a country, then use ballistic missiles against strategis targets. If the target country can defend itself against that, then bombers wouldn't have a chance either. Currently the "ultimate form" of strategic bombardment is a nuclear war, and they switched to ICBMs for a reason.
However, the elevated gun position of an aircraft is immensely useful, as even special forces were very open to the idea of using an armed SuperTucano as CAS - they really liked the loiter time too.
It's hard to talk about special forces without either overestimating their capabilities or talking down them. Let's just say that they are special for a reason. And yes, aircraft like that are excellent for COIN, just look at what the Rhodesians did. But would you try to engage a Russian armoured division with the tactics and equipment of the Fireforce?
The main advantage of a pilot in the loop is the fact that a pilot is still more capable of differentiating between friendlies and enemies than an AI
But if you use mortars to drop some shells on the enemy, then you are using a forward observer who is even better at differentiating between friendlies and enemies, as he knows his own position and should have a very good idea about the enemy's location. Such friendly fire incidents are nearly unthinkable with modern fire control.
but if you fire a rocket on the ground while the enemy has air superiority, there is a high likelyhood of them spotting the exhaust plume, following it to its origin and hellfireing that spot
Assuming that you are incapable of using simple shoot-and-scoot tactics. But let's look at a bit different scenario: you are fighting in and around a city, and the enemy has no air superiority. Does it really make sense to risk and expensive aircraft and its pilot to bomb a single building when you could just use one of these nigger-rigged trucks to do the same thing?

My guess would be that Air superiority will be fought out by drones in the future, while CAS due to its danger close properties will be handled by humans for some time to come.
You could send up a heap of drones, but the moment the russians with their faible for EWarfare figure out how to mess with them, you're fucked.
I don't want to be a prick, but your words seem to be contradicting. Or do you mean that in the near future drones will be useless, but in a century they will dominate the skies? Also, scout drones should be very cheap, to the point that you think of them as disposable. Just program them to patrol a certain area for a certain time and then come back. They can't fuck with the control signal if there is none. At that point your only fear is that they somehow intercept its feed and so they will see everything you see. Yes, I know that it would be rather crumblesome, but you could make up for it with the sheer amount of drones you send at the same time.

Camden Adams
Camden Adams

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Brayden Edwards
Brayden Edwards

correct me if i'm wrong, but your country is fairly big.
You are wrong. Currently Hungary's area is some 93 000km2, and we have a population slightly less than 10 000 000. The biggest German state is Bavaria with 70 000 km2 and a population of 12 000 000. Now add the neighoburing Baden-Württemberg with its 35 000km2 and 10 000 000 people, and what you have is slightly larger than Hungary with more than twice the population.
Jesus Christ, are you even relevant to anyone these days?
We are leasing a dozen Gripens from Sweden, and aircraft are not only completely invulnerable to enemy fire, but they can also deliver enough ordnance to wipe out entire army groups with a single bombing run. In other words, we could face Russian head on, therefore we are extremely relevant in world politics. :^)
how the FUCK is Romania bigger than Hungary?
Its because the fucking Entente gave them Transylvania along with the Partium (an area that isn't part of what historically belongs to Transylvania, but read up about it if you want to know the story). That alone is more than 100 000km2, so more than what remained of Hungary after those butchers carved up our lands.

Now, you can see that Hungary is in fact not a bit country. Currently our air force's main base is at the city of Kecskemét. If you put there an S-400 battery, then its range of 400km would be enough not only to cover current Hungary, but even most of the proper one. Of course its an oversimplification, because you have to factor in geography, but I think it demonstrates why air force is not vital for us. Everything is so close its not even funny. Just measure the distances between Budapest, Vienna, and Pressburg.

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Charles Barnes
Charles Barnes

Assuming that you are incapable of using simple shoot-and-scoot tactics. But let's look at a bit different scenario: you are fighting in and around a city, and the enemy has no air superiority. Does it really make sense to risk and expensive aircraft and its pilot to bomb a single building when you could just use one of these nigger-rigged trucks to do the same thing?

The main problem I see here is that a good thermal optic will be able to follow the launch crew even from altitude. Shoot and scoot works until you have a drone observer, with wide view aided by AI ( or in the case of thermals, probably just someone looking at the screen, as the launch will flare quite significantly on screen) in detecting heat spikes like a rocket launch.

With the way AI is progressing, i'm pretty sure it won't be long until we can even detect launches like those just from simple visible spectrum footage. I'm expecting the first people to make use of this will be israelis.

Assuming that you don't do what the Serbs did back in the 90s to avoid that exact same problem. You know, those memeworthy stories with microwaves and advanced optical camouflag read: hiding in the bushes and setting up some dummies.

Dummies don't really work on HARM, if they're built right. The Vietnamese NVA learned about the effectiveness of them quite quickly, leading to the wild weasel squadrons on the US site to provoke them in to firing up their radars.

And even if you go full retard like Middle Easterners tend to do, you can still hurt the enemy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_combat_losses_of_United_States_military_aircraft_since_the_Vietnam_War#1991_(Operation_Desert_Shield/Desert_Storm)

That's a surprisingly long list if we consider that they used rusty soviet systems from the 60s and 70s. It looks like that aircraft aren't capable of "going really fucking fast and blowing shit up with zero chance of being attacked back".

The only aircraft that ever touted and in a variant proved speed as a valid defense mechanism was the A12, and that thing sadly did not make it in to service.

Keep in mind that the US/Coalition still absolutely crushed the Iraqis despite this. Also, the entire coalition lost about 75 aircraft, of which the majority were not US aircraft. THe Iraqis, on the other hand, lost significantly more despite having the advantage of being backed up by AA due to them fighting on their own turf. They had both AND STILL LOST.

And before you claim that the Iraqi army is just incompetent - The army was what kept Saddam in power, along with the secret services. They were built upon the Baath party, meaning a very low effort religious fundamentalism and more political zeal.
Coming to think of it, I think they would have had significantly lower desertion rates if they'd been fundamentalists, willing to fight with old tech.

In addition, active phased array radars are supposed to be a lot less suspectible to anti-radiation missiles, and modern AA system (should) use that. Of course, the problem is that we won't know how true it is until they are tested in a real war.

AESA Radars still emit radio. If you outfit your HARM missile with a multiband reciever and decent intercept and position prediction logic, a single radar spike can prove very deadly, since a full size SAM site takes some time to get in to place.

Andrew Rivera
Andrew Rivera

contd.
But the idea of just flying into a country and randomly dropping bombs at everything you think is a target is just a meme. Let me repeat myself: if you want to strategially bomb a country, then use ballistic missiles against strategis targets. If the target country can defend itself against that, then bombers wouldn't have a chance either. Currently the "ultimate form" of strategic bombardment is a nuclear war, and they switched to ICBMs for a reason.

You don't just fly in to a country and drop bombs. You have your satellites and secret services figure out the targets first. The strategic stealth bombing of Iraq significantly diminished the capabilities of Iraq to fight back.

Furthermore, firing ballistic missiles gets everyone REALLY on edge. using them for strategic bombing runs is a terrible idea, as anyone with half a brain will expect nuclear impacts, not just a couple tons of conventional explosive.
Imagine if the Pakis fired IRBMs at indian tank forces right now. I wouldn't blame India for reacting with nuclear weaponry until the IRBM impacts.
Firing IRBMs at russian forces, especially in large numbers where the launches CANNOT be ignored or explained as a glitch, will likely result in nuclear retaliation.
While the ballistic missile in theory is even more difficult to intercept than a bomber, the strategic result prohibits their use unless you've already lost anyway.

Finally, the use of IRBMs and ICBMs for strategic targets will also piss of practically anyone on the planet because of prewarning systems. Bombers? Not so much. You can have bombers close to enemy targets/airfields before they can launch to intercept, as the Israelis have proven before.

But would you try to engage a Russian armoured division with the tactics and equipment of the Fireforce?

Depends on what I'm carrying. If you look at the A10, against modern armor, it practically only serves as an elevated missile launch platform - the actual tank killing is done by missiles, targeted from the elevated position of the A10s targeting pod.

I will concede that this targeting can be done by a drone with the missiles fired from the ground, however, the missiles would need a significantly bigger booster as they have no aid in falling towards their target from a plane's wing.

As such, I think that an airplane is more helpful here until you can have a JTAC with a full 360° field of view capability from the drone. Which would be susceptible to jamming and interception, now that I think about it, and if used with an IFF system, could just launch the missiles at its own battery… messy.

But if you use mortars to drop some shells on the enemy, then you are using a forward observer who is even better at differentiating between friendlies and enemies, as he knows his own position and should have a very good idea about the enemy's location. Such friendly fire incidents are nearly unthinkable with modern fire control.

ah, you mean having a JTAC talk the pilot in to his attack runs? Yeah, that is useful. The main reason why mortars are still ebing used is their quicker response time over the rather meh CAS capability of the FA18 due to short loiter times and a weird focus on using the wrong plane for the job ( I don't think the A10 has ever been deployed with more than 1/3 of its total available number ) thanks to the Navy wanting a flying swiss army knife.
In absence of CAS, indirect munitions reign supreme. But if it is available, there is no reason not to call it in, as they can drop significantly more ordnance that your infantry does not have to carry around.

Does it really make sense to risk and expensive aircraft and its pilot to bomb a single building when you could just use one of these nigger-rigged trucks to do the same thing?

Depends on the amount of fire I need. Using a single pilot to fire a single bomb in to a single building in a non-stealth plane? I think i'd go with a cruise missile/RATO glidebomb.
I have an entire city to police? helicopters should be my support QRF. Both of these assume an asymmetric conflict.

If i do have a stealth aircraft available, there is no reason not to use it to deliver ordnance in a single strike that is magnitudes bigger ( compare arty) and does not reveal my ground force positions when compared to field arty or RATO glidebombs.

Isaiah Cox
Isaiah Cox

contd.
I don't want to be a prick, but your words seem to be contradicting. Or do you mean that in the near future drones will be useless, but in a century they will dominate the skies?
No, what I mean to say is that drones are still very susceptible to certain froms of warfare, currently only making them excel in very specific fields.
Future developments, especially advances in AI, could change that.
Air warfare is easier, as targets are easier to identify and due to IFF discern between enemy and friendly. Thats why I think that drones will take over that field first, as they can turnfight significantly tigher. In BVR, its already mostly handled by computers, with the pilot only pulling the trigger.
CAS is more complex, meaning it will take longer for drones to do it right and reliably, even under enemy EW, as significantly more decisions factor in to engaging specific ground targets ( you might not even see).

The drone swarm is an idea that has been propsed for quite some time, the main problem being loiter and range on cheap drones. You want long range and loiter, shits gonna cost. You dont want/need that, thats cool. I've seen multiple forces use something that resembles an RC planes for reconnaissance, the norks have been sending them as dumb planes with a preprogrammed flight path to south korea for some time now. This works for peace time missions, but during wartime, you need to find the other side first, and dumping high end optics on thousands of disposable drones is not going to be cheap at all, making them pretty much nondisposable.

besides, if the drones are dumb and low loiter, i can just follow the swarm to your recon unit.

Isaiah Watson
Isaiah Watson

Well, it WAS a good thread.

Robert Scott
Robert Scott

Yeah, until started this whole "no need for airforce" bullshit.

Andrew Bennett
Andrew Bennett

Are you suffering from PTSD?

John Bennett
John Bennett

no u

Ian Murphy
Ian Murphy

Is there a second chance for her to fly again in the future? I am hoping not.

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