What are the good arguments against orthodoxy ?

What are the good arguments against orthodoxy ?
in history, theology, discipline ? Is this corrupted like the catholic church nowadays ? What are some problems in the spirituality of the average orthobro ?

I'm not an orthodox hater, maybe I want to convert, but I need to know what to expect, if there is a bad surprise.

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Dave (protestant) did some good vids with Ortho priests, and seems to think very highly of our Church.

Orthodox Proclaims Jesus is their King, and Is The Original Church
youtube.com/watch?v=GVZzT77FI44

Why Smells and Bells in the Orthodox Church? Do they Worship ICONS?
youtube.com/watch?v=zZ74zeLT2zg

Orthobro here.
There's only a few arguments that I hear that carry any real weight: that there's a lot of lukewarms in our churches that don't know much about the faith, some of the early traditions have altered (confession in the early church used to be in front of the congregation and now it's just in the presence of a priest, for example), and many churches are like ethnic clubs who think it's weird when a non-greek/russian/whatever wants to convert (the problem of lukewarms again, they don't realize it's the universal church).
Other arguments don't really hold up under scrutiny. The idea that we believe in a "works based salvation" or follow the "traditions of men" is bunk when you take the time to actually read our apologetics. The usual Catholic argument is that our church is divided and we need a supreme earthly authority to resolve disputes, also bunk.

This isn't true, this is pure internet slander. In all the churches I've been to, and all the other Orthodox people I've spoken to, no one has ever been excluded for not being Greek/Russian/whatever. Most churches in the West these days end up having a mix of ethnicity anyway. This is a non-issue.

From first hand experience I would just say that many people just think it's weird that a non-ethnic would join an "ethnic church" (I can't remember how many times people have asked me if I'm Greek). It's not that they exclude people per say, it's that all the ethnic functions of the community are part and parcel of the church and so the church becomes somewhat of an ethnic club.

isn't it good ? Doesn't it means there is a real community ?

Disclaimer: I am Orthodox, so I do not believe these arguments are all ultimately correct, obviously. But you may as well want to get this stuff straight from the source.

Historical interpretation of the Church's history varies throughout Orthodoxy. It's not terribly surprising to find Orthodox disagreeing with each other about whether the Bishop of Rome was ever the head of the Church, or whether he lost the primacy or not when Constantinople became the capital of the empire, or whether the Latin saints actually taught the filioque (besides Augustine), or whether the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano happened with unleavened bread or if the heretical Latins just try to make the leavened bread look like a host… For more recent issues, there are disagreements as to whether Ukraine falls under the jurisdiction of Constantinople or of Moscow, for instance.
As to historical behavior… The Orthodox Church isn't innocent of having committed grave sins (notably against schismatics and against Jews), so if you believe the Church of God must have perfectly clean hands to be the Church, you may as well look elsewhere or rethink your position.

Many saints said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, yet the Orthodox anathematize this. Many saints said the Pope is the head of the Church, the successor of Peter, and his judgment is supreme, yet the Orthodox have excommunicated him. Many saints interpreted 1 Corinthians 3:15 to be about a purifying fire right after death for those who die without mortal sin but with worldly attachment, yet the Orthodox anathematize Purgatory. And scholars aren't unanimous as to whether the NT implies to say that Jesus took leavened or unleavened bread for the last supper, but while Catholics allow either to be used for the eucharist, the Orthodox anathematize anyone who uses unleavened bread.
The Orthodox also have an almost innate rejection of scholasticism, even though it began in the East with St John of Damascus and wasn't even seen as a bad thing until the 15th century.
One may argue that the Orthodox reject the Immaculate Conception without looking too much into the arguments the Catholics make for it being a dogma too.

One could criticize Orthodoxy for having the concept of economy (applying the canons pastorally, following the spirit of the law rather than the letter, to guide a sheep to salvation taking "the long way around" so to speak), although this Catholic priest I know told me there is a similar concept in Catholicism called gradualism. One could also criticize Orthodoxy for allowing married men to be priests (if you believe the practice of clerical celibacy is apostolic) or for allowing deaconesses (if you think the office never really existed) or for having mandatory celibacy for bishops (if you think that any form of clerical celibacy is a heresy because it is non-biblical). Quite a few popes before the schism, several of which are saints, believed that all practices must conform to those of the Roman Church, so you might very well criticize the Orthodox for not doing everything exactly like the Roman Catholic Church does (like the way communion is given). I imagine infant baptism can be a thorny problem for some people as well, or giving confirmation and communion to children.

cont.

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Certainly. There isn't the same outbreak of pedophilia (if a clergyman is a pedophile he will get a harsh sentence, even if the state finds him to be innocent) but I've heard that quite a lot of bishops in the old countries are corrupt men who take any gift that comes their way, and end up driving in luxury cars and all that. I'm not sure the same can be said about priests though, since being a priest is a miserable job by all standards (but I've still heard of some corrupt priests). And hard to be a corrupt deacon when your job revolves around serving everyone, which doesn't require the pastoral prudence of being a priest but must still be exhausting and miserable.

I can't talk for the average orthobro, but I can mention some issues I see. Anti-intellectualism. Taking the theologoumenon of the toll houses way too far (such as considering it a dogma, or thinking there are literal houses above our heads). Being so anti-papism that you end up being anti-authority and essentially Protestant in ecclesiology. Being obssessed with "one true churchism" to the point of denying that any grace at all exists outside of the Church, and affirming that anyone who does not die a faithful Orthodox goes straight to Hell. Fascism, racism, elitism are problems in some places. Liberalism, socialism, not being anti-Jew, not being anti-LGBT are problems in some other places (but at least I have never met an Orthodox who didn't despise Israel and Zionism). Not taking communion often (rules for preparation can be kind of harsh, I've never seen more than half of a parish commune on a Sunday, and there are people who end up only having communion once or twice a year because they never feel prepared enough). Not reading the Bible often (and particularly, not reading the Old Testament). And overall a sentiment that being Orthodox is specifically to not be Catholic, even if that means denying the reality of certain aspects of Orthodox tradition (primacy, eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit, original/ancestral sin, I've even seen people deny the Assumption) just because they sound too Catholic.

If the Orthodox Church is the Church, then God will regularly try it by purifying fire. Meaning you'll have to expect to be tried by fire if you join us. Sadly we are made of flawed and human people, even if it is the Holy Spirit animating us and bringing us toward salvation (and destroying the unwanted weed in His garden).


I've gone to a Greek parish in the US where the priest was like "yeah, we receive Antiochians sometimes, but this parish is for Greeks only".

Which reminds me - OP, don't worry too much about the ethnic church meme. Some parishes are very ethnically and culturally homogenous and they are very welcoming and loving. Some parishes are very ethnically and culturally diverse and they are elitist assholes. Just visit every parish in your reach and find one that you feel comfortable with, if you're curious to check us out and to stay with us.

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By the way, regarding discipline, allow me to point out that economy means divorce is possible and, in specific cases, remarriage is possible. Abortifacient contraception is absolutely forbidden (it is considered murder) but non-abortifacient contraception can be tolerated, with the priest's blessing, in specific cases. These are the big two that the non-Orthodox get disturbed about usually.

The problem I see with Orthodox is not theological, the problem with the Orthodox is their insularity. This becomes so bad that even between Orthodox nations there's rivalry and schism. If they were the true catholic church, they would have evangelized the world, but it's clear that they have no interest outside of their own kin. Even on a parish level, much of the time there's a general reluctance towards bringing in converts

my main problem with orthodoxy is the Converts take being Orthodox WAY too seriously, myself included when I was visiting a Greek church nearby, that I would literally starve on fasting days. The cradle Orthodox have the opposite problem, half of the congregation not showing up until right before the Eucharistic portion of the Liturgy was started (the preast actully called those kinds of people out several times, obviously didn’t make a difference).

Just find a church that you believe to be right, user. If God wants you somewhere, you’re gonna find yourself there.

tbh, I only seen roseboos or simply "folk" Orthodox (one that may go to the church once in a decade for marriage or funeral) to do this, simply because materialized and pagan-like faith is more easy for them.
Most that actually attend or are aware of it either dont accept them as authentic or take it as a simple metaphor for our consciousness like Palamas says. I mean, maybe its just my congregation but by far, general picture is like this from my view.

This isn't a good thing, but it's also been true for centuries long before the Great Schism was a thing. Local churches and patriarchates have always been bickering about who is right about what and cutting ties or even eucharistic communion over it. It's not like this problem was caused by Orthodoxy excommunicating Rome.

Considering that evangelization of the world is not a finished business for any one confession of faith, and will not be until the eschaton, I'm not sure this is a good argument unless you think the eschaton is around the corner. Furthermore, the Catholic Church's main strength was to be able to call dibs on the Americas due to having access to the Atlantic directly, which cannot be said for a lot of Orthodox nations.
Also, the Church of Alexandria has been doing monstruous missionary work in sub-saharian Africa, and Orthodox communities in the West are growing slowly but steadily (in fact I learned about Orthodoxy from a presentation my priest made, to teach visitors about the church, as part of a series of presentations made by different faiths).

I disagree that this is "most of the time". I'd say that in the West, 60% of parish are excited about people converting, 20% are scared of foreigners, and 20% haven't even thought about the matter. Still pathetic numbers, but hey.
I'll mention that of those 20% who hate newcomers, they most likely don't like other kinds of Orthodox too. I'm of Algerian descent, and I and my mother went to a monastery for divine liturgy, and the Romanians there absolutely winnie the pooh hated us, obviously because we were not looking or acting like Eastern Europeans (in fact they even hated the Romanian lady who invited us and hung out with us).


I think that's horrible advice. This sounds like extreme relativism, may as well say that God can want you to be a Muslim or a Buddhist or an atheist.

My parish's catechism literally says that Orthodox Christians go through the toll houses as part of the particular judgment. I wouldn't say that most practicing Orthodox don't accept the idea, from my experience (but most practicing Orthodox do indeed not think that there are literal toll houses above our heads - it works primarily as a guide for confession if anything).

I'm French so nobody cares about Fr Seraphim Rose though, if anything Olivier Clément calls him a weirdo and an extremist in one of his book reviews (because of his stance on young earth creationism).

As I said, this is based from my point of view so it may not represent literally every Orthodox church.
but
is not a really authentic source since Orthodoxy doesnt have (sadly) an unified catechism like Vatican. So basically every parish puts what he wants there. Though to be honest, I consider putting tollhouses in catechism is autistic and unnecessary. I understand about guidelines in confession but there are far better methods than that, like simply using 10 commandments.

Toll houses were taught to me as a doctrine, not just as a guideline to confession or as a quick mention like "oh yeah and some people believe this". But again, not dogma.

Yeah. I repeat, Orthodoxy sadly doesnt have an unified catechism so basically every parish can teach in their own way.
BTW, this is only real criticism I take seriously. I think that we should have certain council to formulate bare catechism that will be universal for every church to exclude extra autistic and unnecessary stuff such as tollhouses. Only basics that are needed.

Why do you say "obviously"? Are Romanians particularly insular or something?

oops, i read "absolutely" as "obviously"

The biggest downside of orthodoxy for me is that it's very messy and unauthoritative. Like for example, ecumenical councils are infallible. They are defined as being accepted by the whole church. Except when they're not (Chalcedon). Purgatory doesn't exist, maybe it does. You can believe Mary was conceived without sin. But she was not. Etc etc.

What. You can't take it too serious enough.

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The non-Chalcedonian churches that call themselves the Oriental "Orthodox" are not in communion with the Orthodox Church. They are a separate communion, and have nothing to do with us directly.

I'll just leave this OC here, lads.

Make of this image what you will…

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Then it wasn't ecumenical, right?

delet

To me, this actually gives them absolutely zero credibility (I used to be more worried about protties being right on theological matters while I barely bothered looking into "Orthodox" theology though I soon will, with an open mind) not to mention that Rome is the only concrete remnant of the Pentarchy meme.


Unless pride and superstition comes into play, this is no valid criticism.
Starvation only begins after a month of fasting (zero food intake at all), unless you're obese and have more fat stores to burn. Drink more water and if you're scared, just fill your stomach with water so ghrelin won't have any chance to mess you up.


Good point but frankly this is, symbolically speaking (very important), still very indicative of the authenticity of the Catholic Church.
How did they behave and what did they say? Genuinely curious.

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Perhaps I should rephrase what I meant:

1. Converts often have a holier than thou attitude and almost try too hard to fast and seem holy so they seem justified in the eyes of the preist, when most people raised in the church just wanna receive Eucharist, maybe chat after in the fellowship hall and leave.

2. I wasn’t saying that you should just do whatever, but that you should try to seek a balance between sound doctrine/tradition, a church body who cares about you and a distance that’s not absurdly far away. Pray always that you are going the right way and look for signs of God’s path.

Shouldn't fasting be more of a private affair? Is there any reason to let anyone besides God know that you are fasting? Genuinely asking, because I'm not Orthodox and I don't know how it works.
That sounds like an opposite extreme and also bad, but maybe not as bad as spiritual pride.

You are absolutely correct. Nobody should know that you are fasting. You have to repair the bad things in you and fasting is a powerful instrument for this. You are full of sins, so you have to fast.

It is, but you must usually fast before Eucharist (at least for a week). So your priest is aware of that. I think this guy is talking about pharisaism (that is common everywhere in every denomination and not just Orthodoxy)

Not a Zig Forumstard at all but this is extremely jewish-like; Christ certainly hates this very much and Matthew 7:21-23 applies perfectly to the ones that actually outright act maliciously towards the converts, like the romanians mentioned ITT.

Being pharisaical about it, making it seem like God won’t love you if you don’t fast and tell everyone about it isn’t Orthodox, yet Serapimites (people who take every word of Seraphim rose and the church fathers as almost over the Bible) do that all the time. The opposite problem is just as prevalent.

God loves a heart that loves to serve. Fast to get closer to god, knowing he would love you even if you fail.

I'll just leave this here.

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I'd say it's prevalent in any ethnic community. A lot of muslims and hindus think it's weird when a white guy wants to convert (because, well, it kind of is). You are right about Christ not liking it. We all have our sins.

Looked at us angrily, didn't want to eat at the same table as us so we ate at a small table in a corner. They also didn't want to serve us, a lady told us "you're grown up, you can do it yourself" angrily. They did serve our Romanian friend but the food was pretty much thrown hastily onto her plate.

Theologically no, if you wan't to see what the original theology of Christianity is like learn about the Orthodox church and teachings. It's like a new word for westerners since most of that stuff have being lost from western Christianity.
Honestly i can't find any arguments against Orthodoxy, but if you have any question i'll try to answer because i'm born and raised Orthodox unlike most people here who knows Orthodoxy from the internet memes.

The main problem is that the surprised reaction is tainted with reluctance and not mere "oh that's unusual"; in their minds it goes "no…leave us alone…you don't even speak our language…this is embarrassing…ugh, what are you doing…please go away" which says a lot about their actual faith (or lack thereof) but then again maybe this can be more of an argument to be made against faithlessness rather than "Orthodoxy" itself however it stems from the ethnophyletism that seems to be innate to "Orthodoxy". When I think about it, I actually feel very sorry for people who discover apostolic Christianity and decide to go "Orthodox" only to feel extreme anxiousness when going to a Divine Liturgy and sticking out like a sore thumb; one can only imagine what goes through their minds when they find out that they must find some Sergey or Giorgos to begrudgingly sponsor their conversion…I won't lie, this still makes me giggle.

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Well better stick out and know that your kids are safe tho than blend in and having a priest doing God knows why with them. You will meet people eventually.
Personally, i can't imagine a father prioritizing his social life over his child well being.

Tbf the phyletism is a bit exaggerated itt, I haven't experienced any real horror stories myself, but I won't deny that it's a thing. In my experience at least, for as many pseudophyletists there's at least as many good hearted souls, including my own sponsors, who love converts.
All I'm saying is that there's an ethnic component to Orthodoxy as it stands now, although in the west it's showing signs of waning. Most of the kids and grandkids of the immigrants don't know much Greek, if at all, and are thoroughly 'American'. As we get more converts and the older generations pass away the ethnic issue will become even less of an issue than it is now.
American Orthodox Church when?

At the end of the day, it doesn't surprise me that many converts (genuine ones) end up very committed to the faith, to "prove themselves" due to the subtle rejection, to the point where they are judged as "taking it too seriously". Perhaps the reaction, though seemingly evil, bears fruit; Christ and the Canaanite woman comes to mind…but there's still limits:

Romanian catholic here. We (Romanians) are genetically racist bastards. Probably "get out fag"

Good for them, converts are the future of the church. Orthodoxy is the fastest growing denom now and it was about time. False Christianity made the west atheist unfortunatelly.
Though nobody is judging them, that's just your brain on memes as i said. Personally i'm very happy when i see a foreigner being more serious in the faith than me, reminds me to be more serious myself.

I would be happy about this, but pic related

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I, too, wonder…

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I don't have any stats but you can see that there is more and more interest about Orthodoxy in the west

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That map doen't say anything about the church
Only the church's actions can speak about her

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Orthodoxy is growing, therefore, it is the fastest growing traditional denom. All traditional denominations except Orthodoxy are shrinking.

johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp336abrate2.html
Also, different law systems, communist legacy and so on and so forth.
Only ones posting this shitty map are people like you who just want to trashtalk about Orthodoxy.

I'm just sceptical about this, but I hope it is true.

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oh

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20 years ago Americans hardly even knew what Orthodoxy is. This is clearly not the case today.
christianitytoday.com/news/2017/april/bible-answer-man-hank-hanegraaff-orthodoxy-cri-watchman-nee.html

It says a lot about those that are officially part of it and I posted it in response to the "growth" claim due to the irony. What you posted is unrelated and only reinforces my faith tbh; pic related.


What difference does it make?
It is apostolic so I don't "trash" it; I only criticise it, sharply yet respectfully. I even listen to "Orthodox" chants as much as Catholic chants so I feel no aversion.

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Oh I get why the Catholic areas have less abortions. It is because they have more homosexuals!

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Wow, no wonder you have so many pedos

is that really an actual thing

Yes, your 'sponsors' become your godparents.

I just wish that there would be 1 (one) thread where Orthodox and Catholics will be friends and thread not being about laughing about protestants, or protestants calling us vampires.

He talks about someone who introduces user to the church, I think

Not really, the Priest will usually assign Godparents.

ok interesting. I was thinking where am I supposed to get sponsors from since I'm currently considering conversion. I still have more study and research to do before deciding tho. What does this whole godparents thing mean in Orthodoxy? How does it work

Godparent is a witness of your baptism and becomes your spiritual kin. He will be one that will guide you after your conversion and whose help you shall seek in different moments of your spiritual life. Its somewhat similar to mentor.

When you start attending church regularly you'll meet people and you'll get to know each other. Some may offer to sponsor you, or you may ask them. It all has to be approved by the priest of course.
Godparents are there to instruct and guide you in the faith, like your parents are there to guide you in life.

Learn russian then go up to the parishioners and say something along those lines:
привет, хотел бы ты спонсировать меня? пожалуйста ответьте…

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Another thing I would point out is that the fullness of the Eastern traditions are already a part of Catholicism within the eastern rites of the church. Their theology is not any different than latin theology, despite what some might say. Filioque is literally nitpicking, there is no reason to schism yourself from Rome and western Christianity.

Godparents should care about their spiritual children. If necessary they can guide them in the faith, but this isn't all. They also have the obligation to pray for their godsons.


Once my priest asked me to become a godparent but I refused because I was too afraid of the life-long responsibilities. Now I realize I have to repent about this.

Don't eastern catholics venerate St Mark of Ephesus?

Look at OP's first question…(it's literally the topic)

No, you don't want to be with these people. There is only one reason for someone to become an Orthodox Christian: if he wants to be perfect as his heavenly Father is.

youtube.com/watch?v=g5WonijOgXc

Dishonest cherry picking

As far as I'm aware, not all do.

How are any allowed to and still be in communion with Rome?

This, begome Eastern Rite Gadolig

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Catholics have always venerated people who haven't officially been canonized, you can be wrong about something, it doesn't put you outside of the church

It isn't an issue over someone who hasn't been canonized (St Mark was canonized btw), it's an issue of "catholics" venerating someone who was a polemic against Rome, as a saint, but through some legal loophole they're allowed to sing his praises in their worship. And it isn't only Mark, but Photius, Palamas, and others.

Nestorius.

It won’t happen until Christ returns.

magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/12/04/orthodox-churches-in-decline-except-in-ethiopia-a-survey/

ocl.org/pew-study-reveals-critical-decline-in-orthodox-religious-membership/


I think people who live on the internet are under the impression the EO is growing. But this has no basis in reality. It's shrinking. I know you think you five buddies who "converted" because of epic internet memes makes you think it's growing, but it really isn't.

>magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/12/04/orthodox-churches-in-decline-except-in-ethiopia-a-survey/
Measures the number of the people considering themselves Orthodox Christians. Which is not at all the same as being an Orthodox Christians. According to the canons in order to be someone an Orthodox Christian he must attend a mass regularly (3 Sundays without a mass and you are excommunicated, canon 80 of the council of Trullo) and to take Eucharist regularly. Which means the actual Orthodox Christians are not 300000000 but a much smaller number.

No, we simply go to the Church and see that the size of the congregation increases. That is, the actual number of the Orthodox Christians increases.

In 2010 the actual number of the Orthodox Christians in USA attending regularly the weekly services was 210000 and this number increases steadily. Of course, the Catholicism is considered the largest denomination in USA, but how many of these Catholics "by name" actually go to services every week and take Eucharist regularly? From 2000 to 2010 the number of the Orthodox parishes in USA increased by 15% and the current rate of increase is even greater.

>ocl.org/pew-study-reveals-critical-decline-in-orthodox-religious-membership/
There is decrease in some parishes of the Greek Church in USA because among all Orthodox Churches in USA the Greek Church has the largest number of first generation Christians. The transition from 1-st to 2-nd generation Church is always painful.

of the diaspora

thank you for your answers. It seems the average ortho have the same problems as catholic, a little. Anyway there doesn't seem to be bad surprises in what you say.

orthodox throw out st.augustine (generally) and hate st. aquinas, leaves them almost islam-tier in trying to put forward a coherent philosophical viewpoint, many orthodox "respect" these two anyway because they realize how important they are to Christianity

any arguments that point to the the laity or the sanctity of the priest-hood are false, Christ never promised that His Church would not be tested with fire, but that the fire of Hell would not prevail against it

it's much easier to point out that developments of Catholicism post-Schism leave the Orthodox in the dust when it comes to theological relevancy

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exactly, the Orthodox as a Church has been playing a "umm, but no" game with Catholicism for about a 1,000 years now

David is Orthodox

what is "theological relevancy"

It fails the 4 marks of the church.

It is not one, for it is a multitude of autocephalous entities that don't honestly agree with one another (look at this nonsense between the russians and the ukranians).

It is holy.

It is not catholic, though, being rather an ethnic club.

It is apostolic.

The creed says that the church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. The orthodox church is only 2 for 4 on these, and thus is not the church.

Glory to the Catholics for inventing one.

actually being part of western civilization and it's intellectual development, nobody "reformed" from the orthodox church

This thread is about arguments against us, not for us.

Mark of Ephesus hasn't been canonized perhaps only by a local church only but not by the Apostolic See.

nobody in the west considers rejecting Aquinas a plus, except for maybe Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris

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