Here is a challenge I give you Cathys and Orthos...

Orthodox don't even pray to Mary.. at not like Catholics do. You shouldn't equate them.

It's no different than asking your pastor, "Sir, please keep my family in your prayers." Except here your pastor is a saint. And to the typical Orthodox, they don't differentiate being a Christian and those who are in heaven. For the "kingdom of God" is here/within/amidst you once you are born in the spirit. YOU ARE IN HEAVEN OR HELL, depending on your relationship to Christ. And those are in heaven are within distance as well.

^Ugh. Forgive me my friends. Not quoting things right. Sorry about that.

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You don't pray to saints period though.

I'm not either one. I'm just familiar with Orthodox. And it's not prayer so much as it is simply "talking"/fellowship. Just like every Liturgy is sharing the Liturgy in the Spirit with those in heaven. There's not a differentiation with heaven and earth.

Okay, what are you trying to say again? I said you don't pray to saints, because that's a sin.
You venerate them, you ask for help, but it ain't you pray to them.

I'm just trying to explain to you that you're assuming wrong. The premise itself is off. And it's really "prayer" to Orthodox so much as communion.

Luke 20:38 “Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

The Church is fully alive. Not partially. And it's the world that is dead. If anything, don't share communion with them. ;)

And they're not venerating them any more than you would value the prayers of a decent family member or minister. Except these are the saints who finished the race and won the good fight.

Are you ESL or something man? I can barely understand what you're saying and I mean that in the most positive way possible.

No, I'm not ESL. I messed up the first sentence and figured you would understand. I meant to say "It's not prayer - it's NOT prayer - to Orthodox so much as it is communion." There is a whole doctrine called the Communion of Saints. It's not "Prayer" in the way you would retain only for God. It's no different than asking your mom to help you. Because these Saints are ALIVE, just as your mom is. Orthodox do not live in a state where only the "real" things are on Earth. That's a sign of a lack of belief in God's Kingdom, if anything.

Hmmm you know this sounds very familiar, something something that a certain Roman emperor tried to get early Christians to comply to a rule that is unchristian to start with

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You do pray to saints. You just call it something else like dulia but most Catholics I've met even call it praying.

And most protestants I've met will agree that if I go in and slaughter a village I will still go to Heaven without any real consequence in Heaven so I mean, anecdotal evidence isn't really a thing, tigga.

Okay user, find me a verse that explicitly says communicating with good spirits is wrong. Lets stop with the emotional appeals and bring up the proofs. If Catholics can find scripture justifying praying to saints post that too.

What protestant was that? Are you talking about Steven Anderson? He's a antinomian and that is anti biblical. Catholics do call it praying but define it differently.

I'm assuming that's what you're talking about because that's what you come across as.
I pray to God, if I ask a Saint for help, I'm asking a Saint for help to pray to God so that God can hear my prayer.

Ephesians 6:7

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Christ died in order that you actually could have a mediator to God the Father, that is what tore the veil and allows you and I today to have a relationship with God
He did not die so that you could have a relationship with every member of the Universal Church (yet)
At best your prayers go through Christ to the Saints who then pray for you back through Christ
But at that point why not just pray to Him yourself? Or even better have someone alive and living pray in faith then when the prayers are answered, both you and them are brought closer to God in faith while you yet live in imperfection

The Catholics make a distinction between dulia and latria. Dulia is to serve and latria is the highest form of worship that is to only be given to God. Mary goes in the middle. She receives hyper dulia which is a higher form of serving but still not latria. If you object to this you shown ignorance of your own faith and even contradict it. But biblically there is not such distinction since Ephesians 6:7 says that we aren't supposed to give even dulia to humans.

So, you believe the "Prayer Request" thread is heresy, too? Maybe you should leave this board.

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Does this sound like you're just asking her to pray for you: lordcalls.com/mother-mary-prayers/prayer-to-our-lady-for-protection-against-danger
When you build statues is that just so she can pray for you in 3d?
When you burn candles to her is that also so she can pray to you?
When you kiss icons is that also just a request?
Yeah, right. You can't fool me.

WAY WAAAAAAAAAAY OUT OF CONTEXT

The idea that icons should be allowed wasn't as unified as you think. I personally think physical objects in the church are ok but what you guys do is weird man. Like, so you really go to bed at night and think to yourself, when I was burning candles to Mary and looking at her statue and asking her for help like the Romans burnt incense to ceasar I wasn't doing anything wrong and God on the day of judgement will be a okay with it?
And If you say we believed in it for 2000 years then I'm sure you have 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th century evidence to back this up that people had icons.

Before I go further, I wanna ask you, what do you think that means? I'll even go to the Septuagint if I have to btw to prove my point.

So if I ask for someone to pray for me they're commiting a horrible sin and should be cast into hell, Pastor Jim?

It's not a sin but if I built a statue for them, burnt candles for them like people did to ceasar and even asked for their supernatural help like this Mary prayer: lordcalls.com/mother-mary-prayers/prayer-to-our-lady-for-protection-against-danger
Then yeah, we got a problem bud.

So praying for anyone is evil.

Lord I thank you today for revealing the idolatry of the Catholics and Orthodox for anyone to see for they much rather euphemize their actions then do simple Jesus only prayers. Let this be known forever that their spirits had been tested

Thanks for admitting that you pray to Mary.

Yes, to pray to anything other than God is idolatry.

Praying 'for' someone is fine. Praying to someone is idolatry.

FOR isn't TO you whinne the pooh idiot.

Also, that prayer I linked wasn't a prayer for Mary but to her. She is the one who has access to the treasury of merits that she bestows upon believers.

????
Can you define prayer then?

If I'm asking a heavenly being to help me, how is that not a prayer? With that logic, nobody prays TO God, instead, they pray FOR God to help them.

Because it's not a prayer because a prayer and all worship only goes towards God.
If I ask Mary in a prayer to help me, I'm asking Mary to ask God to help me.

It just doesn't click with people anymore. Thousands of years of deviations and heresy have accumulated to the point where ancient doctrine sounds like heresy to most people.

You would agree, you are asking Mary to help you, correct?

But that's not all you do is it? You also build statues, burn candles, make icons and actually do pray to her since she is the one with the access to the treasury of merits. Also, does this sound like you are asking Mary to pray to God or for her to actually save you?: lordcalls.com/mother-mary-prayers/prayer-to-our-lady-for-protection-against-danger

It sounds exactly like a prayer to Mary, but to those who defend this doctrine, God has sent them a strong delusion.
Remember, the Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Here's another Catholic prayer, but it's not a prayer, but it is, but it isn't:

Wow.

I'm asking Mary for her to ask God to help me.

Really activates those almonds.
Pic related, this statue would've been fully painted when it was worshiped.

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The issue.

I don't have a crucifix neither does the church that I go to have one. And I'm not even against it but I don't personally have one.

I'm not sure if you're being ironic or not.

Prayer is an action. You are asking a heavenly being to perform an action (prayer) to help you.
If you are asking a heavenly being for help, then how is that not prayer, and not worship?
You know, plenty of Athena's worshipers thought she had to go through Zeus first to help them. They still called it what it was; worship.

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How do you explain this from "Ave maris stella"?
This is in the Liturgy of the Hours / Breviary.

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You are truly giving a strawman. You can look at an image and not pray to it.
You are praying to what you believe is the spirit of a deceased person (yes, I know they are alive in Christ)
NOBODY, i repeat, NOBODY is arguing that any depiction of anything is bad.

Because I'm not worshiping them, I don't think they're God and above Him. If I ask for help, I can ask God, I can ask for a Saint to ask God, I can ask for a lot of people to help me and you're trying to corner me off so I can only ask God who may not even hear my prayers (even though he will but it's a question of how prideful are you to ask God himself.)

Again, I ask for Mary to ask God for help.

Oh wow, it's almost as if veneration isn't prayer… Really makes me think, really rally's my car.

Also I apologize, the He and the Himself should be capitalized in the parenthesis

Read what this guy wrote:

How would you define worship?
Is prayer a request + worship?

I did and he's wrong.

I can agree with your assessment of "obtain for me" in the other prayer – obtain from the Lord. But in "ave maris stella", you're not asking Mary to ask the Lord. You're straight up asking her personally to set you free from sin and loosen the chains of the guilty.
This is co-redemptrix stuff in an officially sanctioned prayer.

That's what worship is, now what I am referring to is Dulia, which isn't worship, but in a sense, asking the servent of God for help.

Again, Mary has to go through the process of asking God, then trying to free you of the guilt and bondage of sin (but you still got to confess your sins to be totally clean of them).

Homage paid to beings or objects with a relation to God; what is being worshiped in these scenarios?

I'm worshiping God.

Enough bullshit. No more cucking to proddies. Yes, we PRAY to Mary and yes she has her own agency in this world as evidenced by some of the prayers. We do not worship her. We communicate with her and believe she has a degree of divine power. She is a servant of God we petition for help. We don't believe that dead are confined to prison in heaven or hell crap, nor do we believe that jewish crap of everyone's in soul paralysis until the last day. The dead are still around and capable and the good ones are willing to help us. The saints are the ones the church knows FOR CERTAIN are good guys and Mary is one of them. That's Catholicism afaik and I resent my parents for teaching me a protified version of it. I won't make their mistake and will stick to my faith without compromising it to outsiders because I don't want my kids to find out they were protestants when they were told they're Catholics and have to spend years searching to figure what they were really meant to believe.

Why just Mary though? Can any saint free people of the bondage of sin if they ask God first?

Sure, I was convinced that saints could possibly hear prayers by reading:
newadvent.org/summa/5072.htm
(which is a great resource to argue with the next person who asks you this)
But…

Is Mary a co-redemptrix in addition to Jesus? Because although it's not a dogma, a lot of people seem to believe it and the Catholic Church seems to endorse it with this prayer in the Breviary.

Because that's Mary niche.

Glad to hear you acknowledge that Jesus is not the sole Redeemer of the world.

Jesus is the Redeemer stop twisting words

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ITT: western theology in a nutshell.

are you blaspheming the kjv?

Art is fine as long as you don't pray to it or kiss it etc. You can have a painting of Jesus if you want, to remind you of him etc.

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Protestantism is truly the right religion for autists.

I'll do that if you pray the Rosary every day for a month, deal? Be warned though, every person who has experienced the graces bestowed by the Blessed Virgin through recitation of the Rosary has become Catholic.

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Because Mary is the literal mother of God, which also makes her the queen of Heaven. Now I know this might be a tough pill to swallow but there is quite the possibility that Heaven is a theocracy, meaning that some beings in there are considered more important than others.
I'm guessing that "Queen of Heaven" is a rather high position to hold, meaning that her prayers are probably quite highly regarded by her son, Jesus christ.

That is a beautiful rosary.
I'm actually considering creating my own, but I'm afraid it won't be anywhere near as pretty.

Mary isn't the mother of God what the heck, she's the mother of Jesus who is only one part of the Godhead. This is some Ahnsahnghong level garbage.

She's the mother of Jesus who is fully God. Denying that Mary is the Mother of God is denying the hypostatic union by which Jesus is fully God and fully Man.

Also that is modalism and a heresy. Jesus is not "part" of the Godhead. He is fully God as is the Father and Holy Spirit.

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Jesus is not the entire Godhead, unless you are denying the Father and the Spirit. It's misleading and a dumb name which is why God never uses it in the Bible. If she was important, God probably would have mentioned her more than a few times.

God is all three, being the surrogate mother of Jesus' body does not make you "mother of God".

Well she is pretty much the most important after the trinity.
She is definitely the most important fully human being in heaven.

based mods

Mary is the only person in the Bible who an Angel uses a royal title for when addressing her. The Angel says "Hail Mary, full of grace". You don't say "Hail" to people beneath your station, only above your station. The Angel addressed Mary as his superior.

There are more languages than Latin and English you moron

Latin is the only language that really matters.

“Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. You only wash the feet of someone greater than you.”
This is how you sound.

That's not what he's saying though.

He says If an angel addresses Mary in a “royal” manner, she must be greater than the Angel.
It is the same logic to say that since Jesus washed the feet of his disciples, they must be Jesus’ masters.

I guess it's a slip up then on his part then, I mean Mary is the Mother of God, so I guess it would make sense to claim her to be 'royal', if that makes sense?

So, would you say the Bible is wrong when it says “God is no respecter of persons?”
Can you prove that Mary from the Bible that Mary is the most special human being? Even God does not respect persons?

Even though* God

That's not what I said though. God =/= Angel.

this meme again

We pray to saints but not in the way as we pray to God.
Thing is, "to pray" was also used as a form of asking/begging but this usage disappeared and is now solely used for asking spiritual beings.
In Italian you got something similar where you beg someone for something and say "ti prego" while the verb "pregare" is also used as "to pray".

How are protestants this stupid? Like seriously how can you be THIS dumb? Or are you just dishonest? Absolutely pathetic and embarassing display.