Constantinople Grants Kiev Full Independence, Moscow Unhappy Threatens To Break Communion

Presided by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Holy and Sacred Synod convened for its regular session from October 9 to 11, 2018, in order to examine and discuss items on its agenda.

patriarchate.org/-/communiq-1

The Holy Synod discussed in particular and at length the ecclesiastical matter of Ukraine, in the presence of His Excellency Archbishop Daniel of Pamphilon and His Grace Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton, Patriarchal Exarchs to Ukraine, and following extensive deliberations decreed:

1) To renew the decision already made that the Ecumenical Patriarchate proceed to the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine.

2) To reestablish, at this moment, the Stavropegion of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Kyiv, one of its many Stavropegia in Ukraine that existed there always.

3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

4) To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople.

5) To appeal to all sides involved that they avoid appropriation of Churches, Monasteries and other properties, as well as every other act of violence and retaliation, so that the peace and love of Christ may prevail.

At the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the 11th of October, 2018

From the Chief Secretariat
of the Holy and Sacred Synod

reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-church-russia/russian-orthodox-church-to-break-ties-with-constantinople-interfax-idUSKCN1ML2HE

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What's the Russian Church's deal with Ukraine? Why do they want jurisdiction so bad?

Do people really still care what the patriarch of turkland thinks?

Political reasons. Barth acted with responsibility here, the people should not be divided for political reasons.
Of course the KGB is mad but they can't do much about it.

This

It must be frustrating for the faithful just caught in between. Constantinople is doing what it should be as the center of the Orthodox world, promoting unity; while Moscow is promoting division. Think about if St. Paul was here today, I can only imagine what his epistle to Moscow would look like. Probably really agitated.

What the frickin' heck the absolute state of the ROC.

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By Monday we should know if there is going to be a formal schism between Moscow and Constantinople because on Monday Moscow is going to issue a formal statement. Antioch is also going to do so with Moscow apparently? Bulgaria and Romania seem to be caught in between but there hasn't been anything official from them over the matter. They'll probably stay neutral maybe? But we'll see where loyalties lie.

hello brother/sister orthodogs, cat here. what's the 411 with this situation. possible minor schism? or much a woof about nothing?
kyrie eleison

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Depends on how much each side wants to sperg out on the issue. If I had to speculate I would say at most there would be a mutual excommunication between Moscow and Constantinople, but no anathemas issued, this isn't really dogmatic issue after all.

He would probably reprimand the Ukrainians for their hatred and petty nationalism and chastise Constantinople for trying to usurp Christ's authority as head of the Church.

It's just politics – the Kremlin wants to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence and the Church is a big part of that. Pretty shameful behavior from them.

Yes, all allegiance should be given to The Supreme and Holy Infallible Pontiff of the Third Roman Church on Earth, The Vicar of Christ, Pope Kirill of Moscow (PBUH).


But nationalism is the whole reason Moscow wants Kiev so bad, they somehow think Ukraine is still apart of Russia and that the Ukrainians automatically owe allegiance to them. Russia is the true usurper here. Constantinople is simply fulfilling it's role.

Kiev IS Moscow's jurisdiction, has been for centuries. The only reason this precedent is being challenged now is because of petty nationalism on the part of Ukraine, nothing more.
To be Pope of the Orthodox Church?

The Ukrainian Church has switched jurisdictions numerous times throughout it's long history. It was only given to Moscow fully in 1686 due to the circumstances of that time.

And again, "petty nationalism" is also Moscow's motivations here. They don't understand the Ukrainian people or their history. There's literally no reason why Kiev can't be autocephalous now especially if other Churches like Constantinople are recognizing this.

Even if you're 100% correct, it still doesn't justify Ukraine.
If you want autocephaly, then do it with love for your brothers and loyalty to Orthodoxy. If you do it because of resentment of Russia then you're serving Satan.

Circumstances change. Even if Kiev did unjustifiably break from Moscow that shouldn't matter now. For the sake of unity, for the very sake of salvation, Moscow just needs to accept it. If not then it is Moscow promoting division and damnation. Constantinople is promoting unity for the sake of our Lord.

Is this the attitude of Ukrainians?

You're forgetting oikonomia. The Church of Moscow is too full of pride that it can't see past itself and is therefore fostering division. Moscow doesn't understand the Ukrainian people and is unjustly asserting itself.

The Romanian Orthodox Church officially supports the Autocephaly of the Ukraine Church.

Go away KGB.

In what way?

You first CIA.

You are very charitable. Let's not forget how the Russians literally tried to bribe the monks at Mt. Athos.
The Russian Orthodox Church is weak, corrupt, and controlled by the state. They need God's grace.

By going against the will of the rest of the Orthodox Church.

How are they doing that?

… >>713428

By refusing to accept the Autocephaly of the Ukraine Church.

Romania and Constantinople is for. Georgia, Serbia, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria are against. This hardly proves "the will of the rest of the Orthodox Church".

The funny thing is that Moscow declared autocephaly on her own when Constantinople lost her earthly power, without asking anybody and by ignoring all canons.
Now they are threatening with a schism over jurisdictional issues of another country.

Wrong, Antioch is for it.

You sure about that?
orthochristian.com/113575.html

Fake news.

Prove it.

You prove it.

I just did.

No you didn't.

Wow…

Wow you.

Ok piggy. No more pearls for you.

You're the swine.

This is wrong. I'm sorry but Constantinople can't act unilaterally in something so important. He's not the Pope.

This isn't the first time this happens. Moscow and Constantinople have been in conflict for many decades. Moscow simply refuses to accept the seniority of Constantinopole and imagines itself the 3rd Rome.

Looking at things through a historical perspective is always good, thank you for the reassurance.

So nationalism is only allowed when it serves Moscow?
The fact that a separate nation with their own culture should be dependent of the clerical jurisdictions of another country is absurd unless that country is in its beginning stages of the church with lots of missions (which Ukraine clearly isn't anymore).
There are tons of ethnic churches who fell under Constantinople before they got their independence.
Why not take away the autocephaly of Antioch?
They are within the Turkish borders, no different nation and culture can be debated.
Going from the situation with Moscow, enough reason to return it to Constantinople.

Nationalism ins't allowed for anyone, ethnophyletism was (rightly) condemned as a heresy. We're all one in Christ, therefore to raise objection to your bishop simply because he's of another nationality to you is the thing which is truly absurd.

the absolute state of orthodoxy

The state of Catholicism is worse though, this is basically cat fighting it's not like either side's liturgies would become invalid for the Christians in both countries, unless their church went full apostate and ceased to be orthodox

how?

Where to begin?

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Gentlemen! Start your schisms!


Politics. They want to keep Ukraine's faithful under Moscow's control. Remember, Kirill and Putin and BFFs, and Putin's proxies are fighting a war with a pro-ish-Europe Ukraine.


Butthurt Russian identified

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*loud sip*
Ahhh.

Well, I hate to say it, but uh
*in an extremely Catholic voice*
"We told you, bro"

In all seriousness, the RoC clergy is top to bottom filled with KGB agents, and the Patriarch of Constantinople is Erdogans bitch. I am not surprised at all that this is happenig, when your church is basically a political institution then it will shill whatever policies the government is putting forward. It's not a coincidence that this schism is going to happen right at a time when tensions between Russia and Turkey have been getting progressivly worse over the last decade.

Why do ppl write it this way instead of ROC?

Yet Erdogan is Putin's BFF right now, so this explanation is counter-intuitive

The Roman Catholic Church has been a political institution since day one. Except it got usurped directly from the inside by rich nobles who bribed the Cardinals so they could get total political control over Europe.

It's still like that today, right now your precious Papacy has been hijacked by an Argentinian communist who seems to have a history of covering up sexual abuse among your rampant homosexual clergy.

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All these corrupt clergy in each of your churches calls for a reformation.

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A good 90% of this thread is ANATHEMA

Yeah it should be ROC you're right. Usually a middle "o" represents of so it' just a habit.


Turkey has been acting nicely to Russia since they downed a Russian plane, which gives Russia a pass to winnie the pooh them up big time. It doesnt mean relations are good, it means the opppsite.


I'm not gonna deny that there's problem in the Catholic church. But at least we don't fall to pieces because bishops of one country want to dominate bishops of another. Come home and help drive pedoscum out of God's church together user.


Shh the big boys are talking

Sorry, I don't want to get infected with your antichrist virus that'll turn all our priests into pedos.

Have fun as your church splinters and splinters into hundreds of schismatic movements, all dominated by government intelligence operatives.

That's what the heretics said about the Church during the Arian crisis. But God willing we will overcome.

Catholics are funny. They slovenly come into our threads reeking of homogay and western autism, talk a bunch of crap, then ask us if we want to reunite so we can help them clean up the mess their infallible church made. I always have to chuckle.

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Catholic here. While I do agree with you that it’s not right for my fellow brothers in faith to come in here and mock you guys, this is a problem your church has to deal with and it’s nothing minor as well. I can’t do much considering I don’t follow your faith, but I suggest you pray that things won’t escalate for your church.

Turkey has been sidling up to Russia for years because they're both on the outer visa-vie the West – Turkey having been not-rejected-but-put-on-permanent-hold for EU membership years ago. They Turks have never forgotten this. To proclaim this "warm relationship" was started because of an accidental downing of a fighter is ignorance masquerading as wisdom. If anything, their backing two different sides in Syria was merely a blip, a momentary bump in the road. Note the strong support Putin gave Erdogan after the "coup" attempt just two weeks after Erdogan apologised for the plane's downing. That doesn't come just because someone apologises for a naughty they did

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Is that supposed to be a face

do you see one?

If you see a face it means your gay, sorry bru

Really?
We have to demonise fellow Orthbros?
And we thought Zig Forums was bad at this brotherly unity shi'

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Another fun fact: Phyletism was condemned as heresy because Russia once again was trying to divide Orthodox people and create turnmoil in the balkans for political reasons with many dead as a result.
The Orthodox people should stay away from political tensions between nations. Let the higher ups take care of procedural issues, don't follow them in their war mongering.

Because the USA orthodox community is too small. If the Orthodox grow in the USA, it has every chance of becoming an Autocephalous Church in its own right, if not a new junior Patriarchate.

Also, I am surprised no one pointed this out: the title is clickbait, and the article is misleading, making this seem worse than it is.
This is an organizatorial, bureaucratic issue – not a matter of faith.

A "schism" won't happen.

He is talking about the Russian government, not the Russian Orthodox faithful (of which there are few in Russia anyhow).

I'm a catholic though, I just see how Russia isn't interested in giving up their influence over Ukraine and nothing else.
If this was religious, then nothing would withhold such a fleshed-out community as the Ukrainian one of becoming autocephalous.
Now the ecumenical patriarch has done the very job he exists for, handling and mediating disputes between other patriarchates as a primus inter pares, and now all the pro-Muscovians are blaming him that he's being a pope.
Like why the frick do you even have an ecumenical patriarch if you don't even allow it to function?

It had more to do with the question of Bulgarian autocephaly. Maybe you don't know your history but I'll just remind you that it's a sin to bear false witness.

This isn't mediation. He's unilaterally declaring the autocephaly of a church within the jurisdiction of another church as if he has jurisdictional authority over another primate like the Pope does.
The Orthodox thing to do would be to call a council and hash this thing out. The thing is, he won't do that because he knows most of the Church won't support him.

So any updates on what’s going on or what?

ITT: Catholics shilling for cockholes and their fake nation sponsored by the Satanic west

Can't you cucks just call it quits? You're NEVER going to break Russia. Head on over to r/Catholicism now.

1000% politics.
The ukrainians wants to separate entirely for political reasons and Moscow wants to keep them entirely for political reasons. This is just the religious side of the political war between Putin and Poroshenko.
Both sides are at fault for their political involvement.

Don't put your nation before God in judging this issue. Be Orthodox, don't be a cringy russiaboo or a ukrainaboo like this guy

Also this problem. I'm not sure Constantinople acted in the best way here, but I know this decision was caused by all the tensions of the past years. In particular what the russians did in Mt.Athos.
Still Ukraine is far from blameless, see

So if there is a schism, which side will be the "Orthodox" Church?

There will be no schism. This isn't the first time a particular community becomes autocephalous.
The development is blown way out of proportion.

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(((VICE)))

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Hardly anyone is siding with the EP.

He knew this already. If he made that move it means consensus was of secondary importance to him.

Thank you.

What I don't understand is why the EP would do this. Even if the EP was entirely justified, how could the EP do this under the threat of schism?

youtu.be/p4UdKGR8L4k
Not to mention the PoK is literally seizing churches by force now.

US state department backs UoC KP. The EP's greatest financial support is from the liberal Greek Orthodox branch in the US. Nothing to see here, nothing to see. Getting ever so sleepy.

Stop fear mongering. A schism is not gonna happen, Ukraine will have an autocephalous church and Russia will not be the third Rome, end of story.

...

Martin Luther was a buttmad autist. Prove me wrong.

*Prautist

The only reason I can think is that he needs to weaken Russia even at the risk of backlash or else his authority will be even more compromised than it is now.
The russians ruined his Council and are becoming more and influential in Mt.Athos, this may be a reason he wants to take off a big chunk of ukrainian faithfuls from russian jurisdiction. Also Greece recently has been refusing visa to Russian bishops who wanted to go to Mt.Athos, considering them as agents of russian influence.

My guess is Bartholomew want to screw Moscow before they are strong enough to take over.

it stands for the Russians of Church, blet, you not know this?

oh my god that is just disgusting

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that's just Francis doing his usual mediatic humility to holocaust survivors.

Money from Ukraine pews, also they'd get a ton of congregation and clout. They could really have a shot of really being "the Third Rome" if they got Ukraine. Which of course, puts Constantinople's position under threat. So you'll never have an agreement there.

Also Putin, I won't disparage his faith as some might do, I will accept his position there. However we also know he is eminently practical, and he could use some good news after the recent pension debacle so I'm sure he was trying to help out the ROC on this. Having instead a setback doesn't do him any good, either.

Is it actually Happening

This is a winnie the pooh travesty. Why can't both sides see this for what it is? Now I have to choose a side.