ITT we discuss the concept of SOPHIA...

ITT we discuss the concept of SOPHIA. some of you tell me whenever I bring up the concept that it is a 'SATANIC' or 'UNGODLY' notion. how can this be the case when several books of the OLD TESTAMENT of the Catholic and Protestant BIBLE are known as 'wisdom' books? would you have us not seek wisdom and not become wise? why do you want everyone to be STUPID like you?

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Sophia isn’t the Holy Spirit. She is lady Wisdom and Mary. Sophia is the mother of the Logos and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is the Logos. Therefore Mary is Sophia. The divine feminine is Wisdom. She is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Wisdom ("Sophia") is pre-incarnate Jesus although according to Irenaeus the Holy Spirit is Wisdom.

So Mary was with God at the beginning of his way? Mary has been established from everlasting? When the earth was not made, when he prepared the heavens, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, Mary was there? I think not. Mary, as holy of a creature as she may be, is in no way eternal.

Ironic considering calling the Holy Spirit feminine is a HUGE heresy.

Not the human Mary. That’s like saying Jesus’ human form is Logos, which is true in some senses, but talking in a philosophical sense about the feet of the Logos makes no sense.

Wisdom is anthropomorphized in the Old Testament as a woman but that doesn't mean Wisdom is actually a sapient entity. It's supposed to emphasize that obtaining wisdom is desirable, by depicting wisdom as an attractive woman. So nop, wisdom isn't the Holy Spirit, nor is it the pre-incarnate Jesus nor is it Mary. It's an attribute.

Jesus Christ is the first-born of all creatures, before all creatures. So, St. Mary's role in salvation history is quite bigger than you presume.

hmmmmm

Now that I consider it, this is a pretty hard theological discussion, so let's delve in!

If the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity that changes the imperfect will of man to the perfected Will of God and Jesus Christ (to the point that the will of the man the Holy Spirit inhabits is now divinely inspired), then Wisdom is something that enlightens the intellect of man, but is distinct from the divine inspiration of will like the Holy Spirit.

So, I'd say Wisdom is distinct, as an entity, from the Holy Trinity, but is an implicit part and gift of the Holy Spirit.

I'm only supposing this off the top of my head, if this in conflict with any piece of Sacred Scripture, please correct me and I will bless you for it.


This sounds pretty accurate to me.

The Holy Spirit is feminine in Hebrew and Syriac Christians to this day still think of the Holy Spirit femininely. Regardless God has no gender and we should use whatever pronouns are appropriate in our particular language. In English the Holy Spirit is to be thought of as masculine.


Are you this theologically illiterate? Christ is identified as Divine Wisdom in both Catholic and especially Orthodox tradition. Picture related is an Orthodox icon of Jesus as Sophia. Churches have even been named after her such as the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (now a museum). Literally St. Athanasius says this:


Again, Origen says:


Christ is the rational of the Father, his masculine aspect is the Word (Logos) and his feminine aspect is Wisdom (Sophia).


What are you talking about? The Logos is the person of Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity. The Logos is the second hypostasis in the Trinity.


Mary has the most important role in salvation history as a creature. She is the greatest creature, greater than all the angels and saints. She is the Theotokos. But she is not pre-existent or divine in anyway. The association of Mary with Wisdom is a 19th and 20th century heresy that developed in Russia that was condemned in 1935 by the Patriarch of Moscow.

The only way I could see Mary being identified with Wisdom is if maybe we could say her person hood mirrors that of Holy Sophia, similar to how Catholics believer her personality mirrors the Holy Spirit and hence in Catholic theology she is called a quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit. So perhaps in Orthodox theology this could be done but that even that might be stretching it a bit.

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is origen a saint?

Oh look, you have no argument. Pic related is another icon of Jesus as Wisdom.

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answer the question. perhaps, if you choose to answer honestly, it may weaken your argument?

What does it matter? He is Origen. He was a Church Father. There are plenty of others I can quote from if you're going to be autistic about this.

Origen died a heretic. In either case, the idea that Wisdom is implicit and part of the Holy Spirit and Logos is obviously licit, but the idea that Christ has a feminine aspect is heretical. Christ is true man and true God, not also true woman.

I've been looking up some stuff about the topic, and apparently there's a bunch of new-age, gnostic, pagan stuff on this topic.

I found this from a Fr. William Most:

"Many feminists notice what is true, that towards the end of the OT, Wisdom was personified - but that was only a rhetorical personification. Surely the OT writers never thought of her as a separate person, still less as a goddess. They notice that Sophia is feminine – what ignorance! Yes, it is grammatically feminine in Latin, Greek and in Hebrew – but that grammatical gender has nothing whatsoever to do with real sex: it is only a grammatical convention."

ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/SOPHIA.TXT

catholicherald.com/News/Noted_Theologian,_Author_Fr__William_Most_Dies/

Origen was died a martyrs death. He was anathematized at Constantinople Part II but his works have still had a great deal of influence on theology, both east and west. Even being heretical there are still many useful things in his theology. But see that I have presented you with other fathers, such as St. Athanasius and St. Justin Martyr.


But God has no gender, he is outside of space and time. God ought to be called by the pronouns he is deemed in the respective language. Sophia is simply another title for Christ in his person hood. Sophia is the second person of the Trinity. He is true God and true man united by his personhood. You seem to be implying in your statement that you believe God to be anthropomorphic, which is a disgusting Mormon tier heresy and which I say to you, recant!


Yes I know, heresies often develop out of misunderstanding of scripture or tradition, just look at Protestantism as an example.

So you must admit that Jesus Christ does not have a feminine aspect.


Sophia is the rhetorical title for the Wisdom of God, whom is Christ. You're not wrong, but you must clarify the issue without sounding like a looney-toon.


?

If we're going off of your logic, then neither the entire Godhead has anything masculine. Therefore we should cease all pronouns of God. God is now an it according to your logic. Stop trying to twist my words.


I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you here.


You sound like a heretic.


So is that a yes, you believe God is composed of matter? If so, then please go join the Mormons you scum heretic.

Of course it does, the Creator/Creation paradigm that is unique to Judaism/Christianity is also tied into the masculinity of God's relationship to Creation.

If God were to be apart of Creation, giving birth to the rest of the Creation, then it would be a feminine relationship.


You should pick up a book on Catholic theology, I recommend Fr. Copleston's series.


Quit larping.

I find it interesting the Nicaean Creed says "homo factus est" and not "vir factus est."

Yes but you see what your faulty logic did there. God is masculine in the English and Hebrew language, and I am not disagreeing with you here.


You're making a bit of a false dichotomy here and mischaracterizing what I am saying. God does not have a gender. However God ought to be refered to only by masculine pronouns. Likewise the Father in his hypostasis, and the Son except when speaking as in terms of Divine Wisdom, and the Holy Spirit is masculine.


No I don't read antichrist heretical material.


No u.

No, I really do not. Jesus Christ does not have a feminine aspect, nor does God the Father or the Holy Spirit. Creation ex Nihilo is a purely masculine relationship between the Creator and Creation.


Agreed.


Yes, but not simply because you "ought to", but as a full expression between God and His Creation. There is no femininity in the equation of God and creation here. Woman was taken from Adam's Rib, and God created Adam out of dust, or nothing (for the sake of the conversation here).


That's a slur against an accomplished theologian.

well, philosopher/historian at least

fpbp

Wisdom is an ENERGY of God that all three members of the Trinity share. To quote my admittedly shallow understanding of Gregory Palamas, We experience God through many traits he has, and Wisdom, being one of the most important, is given special place in the Bible. So yes, Jesus is Wisdom, perfectly desplaying God’s traits, and so is the Father and the Holy Spirit, and even Mary and the Saints to a lesser degree since they have partaken of God’s nature in their Theosis.

All that being said, Wisdom being female in the Wisdom books is simply a metaphor for the desirability of it to Solomon and his sons, how “she” should be sought out and cherished the way a man might cherish his girlfriend or wife.

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There is no divine feminine, God is masculine. He reveals this countless times in the Bible.

Yup

Proving even more that God should be called Father, since it was from Mother Earth that he created him. this could even be seen as proof that paganism is a corruption of the True Faith now called Christianity, since Uranus and Gaia could be seen as being a corruption of the Father in the Heavens and the Earth beneath being the “parents” of humanity, although of course only God has consciousness

wut?

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hmmmmmmmmmmm

Um, no sweety.

>O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, "even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,' and ye would not!