To anyone who is fluent in Greek or in Greek grammar, can you take a look at this and tell me what you think...

To anyone who is fluent in Greek or in Greek grammar, can you take a look at this and tell me what you think, whether you have rebuttals or anything of the sort please? I was in a debate with a Muslim, and when I brought up the I AM statement said by Jesus, he sent me this link. I am not fluent in Greek, so I do not know if what this link says is true or not. I'm gonna have to bother you guys on this one.

answering-christianity.com/iam.htm

Also, let this be a thread were we can debunk common Muslim arguments.

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/εἰμί
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be#Conjugation
blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1961&t=WLC
youtube.com/channel/UCOllN2W9yT4ZYaSgTkqzhhg
orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm
biblehub.com/greek/eimi_1510.htm
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

This site looks totally legit and not like the beginnings of schizophrenia at all.
Now I know "your site is ugly" is hardly an argument but at the same time it's difficult to treat this guy seriously when he's trying his best to appear a lone wolf madman.

I understand your point, user, but yeah I am looking for something more than just "your site is ugly", lol.

Even if you think eimi "I am" should be rendered "I have", what negative application would it cause?

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I see the end where he makes the application that the Trinity is invalid because of this change

I don't think he could make that translation dance with more deliberate passages like John 10:30 NASB — “I and the Father are one.”

Hmm, thank you user. Would you say you agree with his interpretation of the *grammar*?

No, there's no linguistic argument just an assertion
All his other points are centered around a rejection of inerrancy

How so?

Where's your faith my friend?

I do not doubt, brother. I used to, when I was ignorant of teachings, but glory be to God I have strengthened my faith. I asked this question to get a rebuttal from users more knowledgeable than I, so that I may refute his argument and help him convert.

It's a total joke mate. I speedread it to see in what parallel universe "eimai" translates to "i have" and the absolute madman translates the idiom "have one's hands full" to it's literal meaning in Greek "i am busy" to prove that "eimi" can also mean "have" lmao. The same with "i have a good head for", he is trying to translate the english idioms to their literal meaning in Greek.

Oh. So do you think the best way to rebut this argument, if it even is one, is to say that the author literally translates English idioms into Greek, when this should not happen?

You didn't get it, he translates the idiom "have one's hands full" to Greek "i am busy" in a way to prove that "i am" can also mean "i have" in Greek. Just tell your friend that "Ego eimi" can only be translated to "I am" and nothing else.

Ah okay. Thank you user.

It appears to be in the present tense, indicative mood, and active voice, 1st person singular.
It is the verb for "be".
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/εἰμί

Compare the equivalent conjugation in English.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be#Conjugation

Probably the equivalent for a Semitic verb for being and possibly related to YHWH.
blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1961&t=WLC

You're welcome my friend. I guess the site is targeted at poor, illiterate muslims who wouldn't be able to see if the translation is real or not. A very dirty tactic.

More like taqiyyatic

The guy who runs this site is a total idiot. He's been caught fabricating emails and has been on record admitting he did and apologized for it. He's had a few debates with Christian Prince where he's ended up crying and looking like a total idiot. If you google for Christian Prince vs Awnsering-Christianity.com (Osama Abdullah) you can find a few of the debates. The dude is a total idiot.

Also tune in today at youtube.com/channel/UCOllN2W9yT4ZYaSgTkqzhhg subscribe and you'll get notified when Christian Prince is on air. He's been on fire the last little while, people renouncing Islam, accepting Christ, and he's getting around 1k viewers live a stream now. Tune in to find out about the cult of Islam.

I don't get it and I'm greek. first of all what's the argument here, I'm not very familiar with these debates. second, jesus simply means he existed before Abraham. He is before him. as to the rest, like translating "have my hands full" to "I am busy", that is moronic to say the least. even here we have the expression "έχω πολλά στο μυαλό μου" (I have much in my mind) which essentially means the same.

regardless, the meaning is very simple, no need to go to the ancient possible connotations of the word "ειμί", which is a reach. Jesus said to them, it is the truth that I before Abraham was born, I existed.

Apparently the guy I was arguing against said that the I AM of Exodus is different from the I AM said by our Lord.


Thank you.

A lot of problems here.

1. εἰμί (a form of "to be") is in the 1st person singular present tense indicative mood. This means it should be translated as "am". "I have" or "I have been" would be in the 1st person singular perfect tense indicative mood, which it is not.

2. Strangely he has it as "I have seen" even though the word "to see" ὁράω or βλέπω doesn't show up at all in the text.

3. This person is going off of a simple concordances even though concordances like the NASB don't always have definitions corresponding to the literal meaning of the verb, rather these concordances give a range of how it could be read in English to make it easier to understand rather than what the verb really means.

4. He uses the Modern Greek είμαι. Now I don't know much about Modern Greek since I only took Koine and some Attic, but basically what this person is doing here is called the etymological fallacy. Just because a word used to mean something doesn't mean it has that same meaning now, or just because a word has a meaning now doesn't mean it always had that same meaning. I will say this though, the Modern Greek eimai generally does mean "am" the same as eimi in Koine, again his use of concordances is fallacious for finding the true meanings of these words.

5. He uses John 3:28 where many translators do translate this as "have". Well, many translators also translate this as "am"

What he fails to realize here is that in the versions he quotes these are simply the translators translating it in the perfect tense in order for it to flow better in English rather than translating literally. It's simply their choice. This happens all the time when translating the NT, sometimes you can't translate so literally or else it will sound awkward in English. Why do you think we learn Greek in the first place? Because even though many times translations can express the meaning well, they can never express it like the original language. Take for example John 14:9 where Jesus says to Philip, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me?" Literally "eimi" is used here, but many translators choose to use the perfect tense instead because it would sound slightly awkward to use "Am I" like "Am I with you so long a time, and you still do not know me?" (Although some translations do have it that way like BLB).

In fact, non literal translating is done right here in John 8:58 with the verb γενέσθαι which means "to become" since it's infinitive, yet many translators choose to make it imperfect because it would sound weird translating it as "Before Abraham become, I AM."

6. This is where I think his argument really falls apart. That is, John 8:58 is well situated in the numerous "I am" sayings in John which simply cannot be translated as "I have" or "I have been".

John 10:9, "I am the door/gate", literally ἐγώ εἰμι. Using his method, should this be "I have been the door/gate"?

John 6:35, "I am the bread of life", literally ἐγώ εἰμι. Again using his method, should this now be "I have been the bread of life"?

John 8:12, "I am the light of the world", again ἐγώ εἰμι. So in his logic, "I have been the light of the world"?

None of that makes sense, and it's just where this kind of argument fails.

Funny enough in the Septuagint/LXX (Ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible translated by 72 Jewish scholars in Alexandria), in Exodus 3:14 where God says to Moses "I AM WHO/THAT I AM" in the Greek it has "Εγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν" literally translated as "I AM WHAT BEING" with ὤν being the form of the verb εἰμι as the present participle. God literally use I am in Exodus 3:14 "ego eimi" and a derivative of eimi "on" as well. It's extraordinarily clear that the I AM sayings in John hearken back to Exodus 3:14.

See this and

Have fun debating with your Muslim friend. You can literally copy and paste everything I told you if you want. Idc :)

It's not anything regarding Greek, but this lecture is very interesting on the subject of Islam's origins. If you're engaging with Muslims at any basis, then I highly recommend watching it.

I've been trying to nail down the active passive voice differences so it seems to me that "have been" would be in the passive voice whereas a perfect tense would be something like "had been" or "was"?

This is interesting when compared with St. John of Damascus's critique of Islam, the very first Christian writing on the religion.
orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

he's basing his argument that eimi means "have" on the fact that kypros.org's greek dictionary uses the phrase "είμαι απασχολημένος" as an example.

That example is paraphrased "to have one's hands full", and so the saracen uses this to say that eimai means "have". however "to have one's hands full" is just a paraphrase. Literally, eimai apascholimenos means "to be busy". apascholimenos is an adjective – the sentence is "to be [adjective]".

His example about "have a good head for something" isn't a literal translation either. "eimai kalos se" is the greek, but the word for "head" is nowhere in that. Literally, it means "to be good/beautiful/virtuous at [something]". eimai = to be, kalos = beautiful/good, se = preposition.

his whole argument stands on kypros.org's use of paraphrases that render these greek phrases with non-literal idiomatic expressions.

eimi/eimai means "to be".

he has this whole other section where it shows supposed instances of eimi being translated in the bible as "have", but he's a complete dolt in this regard: "have" is certainly in the english in the listed cases, but it's always a helping verb for a form of "to be".

For instance, he uses john 3:28 as an example, and indeed in english:

ye yourselves do testify to me that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am having been sent before him;

eimi is represented here in "having been" towards the ends of the sentence.

If we observe this in a language that doesn't use helping verbs, though:

*Ipsi vos mihi testimonium perhibetis, quod dixerim: Non sum ego Christus: sed quia missus sum ante illum.*

here, eimi is the "sum" in the construct "sed quia missus sum ante illum".

In latin, sum simply means "I am", and requires no helping verb as in english (germanic languages form case waaay different than med languages). It's the same "sum" as in "cogito ergo sum" (I think, thus I am).


overall, he's a tricky saracen who's bending backwards through translations to make you think he's revealing some secret truth, but in fact, he's just a dolt.

On Biblehub you can find the Greek original of every verse. The original says "εἰμὶ", which means I am, and is used as I am everywhere else in the Bible.
biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm
biblehub.com/greek/eimi_1510.htm

Also, muslims are retards so don't even bother talking to them. Just a bullet to the head when the time comes.

How isn't he banned?