hypothetically, if i went out and killed an abortion doctor right now, would it be a sin, and if the catholic church found out i was doing it, would they excommunicate me? also, if the murder was righteous, do you think i would feel any guilt over it? they're commiting murder and they continue to commit murder. they will kill more if they aren't stopped and no authority is willing to stop them. i think it follows that it is justified to put a stop to this via murder, as it is the only way. i guess you could also just chop off their hands or something, instead. i think most actual catholics would be fine with someone doing this, but obviously the vatican could never endorse or encourage vigilante justice/unlawful behavior for political reasons. i think if someone says abortionists shouldn't be killed, they don't really think fetus's are humans with souls, and are crypto-heretics.
this is obviously all hypothetical and i would never risk committing such a grave sin without the blessing of the church. i just want to know your guys thoughts on this
Yes No, but it wouldn't help your soul that much Yes Ends don't justify the means and the double-effect principle doesn't apply
Liam Jones
Yes it would still be murder, you might get off with destroying their hands but you’ll be making a grave mistake thinking your murder is righteously justified.
I don't know guys, the 'ends justify the means' only applies to situations like when innocent people get harmed.
Not trying to encourage OP, but a doctor who consciously chose to make its sole purpose in life killing babies is due for a death penalty for both justice and avoidance of further deaths of babies.
If nobody gets hurt then burning down an abortion clinic is definitely justified without question.
Adrian Martin
So why didn't the earliest Christians assassinate enemy leaders, choosing rather to suffer martyrdom?
Noah Russell
All you would accomplish by killing a doctor or burning down a clinic is energizing of proabortionist base and make antiabortionist look like monsterss.
Camden Johnson
yeah when the lefties freak out about not being able to kill babies without consequences, they will look really good. also, i want a moral arguments only
Cooper Cook
meant for
Jason Turner
As you told you need the blessing of the Church. At least you need the confirmation of someone superior to know your action is the right political mean of the moment. Being a lone wolf won't help, instead the opposite. In fact, I don't know, maybe, if you kill someone only to save the child. But since you are not sure the clinic will just find another abortionist. Maybe burning clinics down and/or threatening abortionists.
Leo Sanders
I'm not advocating genocide btw, it's just metaphoric.
Cooper Cruz
I thought God was clear on this matter. He said to genocide child sacrificers.
Thomas Myers
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Charles Perry
Yes it will only hurt anti-abortionist movement, you lack basic optics.
Charles Hall
Abortionists deserve death. However, you have no authority to execute that judgment.
It's not just optics, it's a matter of justice. It's unjust to execute justice without the authority to do so, even though what you're trying to execute is justice. Just the same as if you asked a demon about theology, it's unwise to seek wisdom from demons, even though what you're trying to gain is wisdom. You have to do not only the right thing, but you have to do it in the right way, for it to be right.
Alexander Gonzalez
Because they didn't have the means to do so in a way that wouldn't backfire. You only saw it happen when the state was converted. Then they could do so without fear of massive reprisals.
Hunter Brown
Not endorsing this approach, but, hypothetically, if you were to encounter an abortionist in the middle of performing an abortion, it would be morally licit to, if there were no other way to stop him, kill the abortionist.
If you believe that an unborn child is a person and that it is licit to defend the life of another person who is unjustly threatening it with deadly force, I fear you must accept this conclusion, and lack of judicial authority really isn't relevant to the immediate preservation of an innocent life.
That being said, to seek out such a confrontation would be counter-productive, vigilantism won't help the current situation.
So do you think unborn children are people or not? If you do, then you are literally not being serious about this question. Would you flippantly call people who wanted to stop a gang of mass-murderers thugs who just "want to kill people to get their way"? Because that's what you're doing. You might be joking when you say that babies have a right to not be hacked to pieces but most Christians aren't. Being active at the knights of Colombus meetings isn't relevant.
Jason Walker
Things Jesus would most likely have done today: Things Jesus would most likely not have done today:
Jayden Richardson
I can't imagine a scenario in which killing an abortionist would be the only way to stop him from performing an abortion. Just tie his hands behind his back, lol. But yes, in that unimaginable scenario, lethal force could theoretically be justified. I don't think that scenario is what OP was asking about, though.
But keep in mind that the child's mother is also an abortionist. I wonder how, after killing the professional physician, you would protect the child's life from his own mother's presumably continuing sabotage attempts? So even killing the physician abortionist might not be something you could reasonably expect to save the child's life in the end… Just a thought.
Liam Lopez
In addition to issues like illegality of killing abortionists etc., consider also the wider effects this would have: in our culture where abortion is widely accepted, it would make finally outlawing abortion much harder, and so in the end, although it would save one child for a time, many more would die because outlawing abortion would become much harder, and would finally happen years later than it otherwise would - in this interval of time, maybe lasting decades, between the year when abortion would be outlawed if abortionists didn't get killed and the year when it will be outlawed if abortionists get killed, millions of children will get aborted anyway. Just some food for thought.
Cooper Gray
To be a passive bluepilled hippe is heresy, that being said, striking out in anger/ rage or vengence is still condemned. Yes there are times when i myself browse /pol, see something bad happening (Sweden seriously get you stuff together!) but what would going full on PURGE mode do? If there is a path that would lead to that end then He would show you, but until then its better to just help who you can while enduring all the crap thats going on.
So basically; taking things into your own hands? Bad. Taking action when signs are given to do so? Good. Spreading His word and easing some suffering in the process? ALWAYS good.
Which discount cross did you purchase and how many hail mary's did you spaghetti?
Robert Wright
So you're opting to let babies become martyrs instead of bringing justice and stopping systematic mass infanticide? So why did Judith assassinate Holofernes? Why did Maccabeus revolt against the Seleucids?
These people aren't just fighting against individual christians but killing babies, this is more akin to saving hundreds of lives by killing one murderer.
Michael Mitchell
In the US? You would just have killed a cog in the Jewish system, and the Jewish system would instantly replace it. In fact, even if you killed 100 abortion docotors, I don't think any abortion would even be delayed let alone prevented. In a land as rich as Jewmerica limited material damage accomplishes NOTHING. If you killed an abortion doctor in a minor Moldovan town however, that might do something. The only option you have in Jewmerica is to preach against the Jews. Tell the people about the Jews, and if people like Robert Bowers start popping up all over the place, then you might have a chance.
Don't waste your life as an impetuous kamikaze. “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.”
Levi Howard
I'm not even sure what you did to your reading comprehension there, I'll just repeat what I said again: Go back to reddit
Brandon Hall
Romans 3:5-8
Robert Ward
Just make sure they know what they are doing is abominably evil and warn them that God will reward each to what he is owed
Elijah Diaz
Never do something like that. If you do you’ll bring down God’s name and Christianity’s reputation down with you. Jesus would never have done that; the most he would ever have done was protest or something like that. Pray for them, don’t kill them; you’ll just add more souls in hell.
Nolan Phillips
Entirely depends on your theology of the state Almost every living Christian has been entirely bluepilled into thinking that Romans 13 means God ordains the power for your state oppressors to rule you, then you can not support any vigilante justice and need to just shrug your shoulders when your government endorses evil
If you know that this is not the case and that the state is an inherently evil organization with it's own interests against yours, you could reason that such a vigilante act of human execution in line with God's will might be a role you need to fill
Romans 13 justification: >>>/christianity/506
Aiden James
Mark 9:42 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea.
Does this sound like a mere protest to you? You don't know Jesus at all. Stop speaking for him, and read his words.
why care about what the catholic church thinks? Care about what God/Jesus thinks about it. 1 John 3:8 King James Version (KJV) 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Jesus did all the work already. You could kill the spirit that dwells inside the abortion doctor through the word of God. Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Nathaniel Scott
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Sebastian Hernandez
It's really the "mother" who is the killer. The abortionist is playing the role of "hit man", a hired killer doing the will of the woman for pay. I suppose you could raise enough money to hire the abortionist to do something other than kill and there would be no question of legality or sin.
Adrian Hernandez
Good point
Ryan Bennett
This is clearly speaking about people who already believe in Jesus Christ but are taken by a heresy; such as the people in Galatians who say that one must be circumcised to be saved.
Carter Bennett
First lets talk about killing sinners. This question is well answered in the Summa Theologiae. (newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm Article Two) There's really not much for me to say here, it's laid out very simply and clearly. "God sometimes slays sinners forthwith in order to deliver the good" This sums it up, it is lawful to slay sinners who are causing grievous harm to good people.
However, according to Article Three, you can can not personally put the grievous sinner to death, because you do not have public authority to care for the body. "It is lawful for any private individual to do anything for the common good, provided it harm nobody: but if it be harmful to some other, it cannot be done, except by virtue of the judgment of the person to whom it pertains to decide what is to be taken from the parts for the welfare of the whole."
So we can't kill the wicked doctor privately, and our government will do nothing to protect its people from him, so maybe what we need is war. According to Article One of newadvent.org/summa/3040.htm, we again need public authority to wage this war in the first place. "For it is not the business of a private individual to declare war, because he can seek for redress of his rights from the tribunal of his superior".
Well, we can't really form a paramilitary group and burn Babylon, can we, because a paramilitary group was not entrusted with the Authority to make decisions for the public. So I guess what's left is a coupe of the current standing authority. Trump could disregard congress, start making decisions, and become defacto dictator, but unfortunately he'll never do that. So what we need is a public figure within congress, the White-house, etc, to march on Washington as Mussolini did, and be declared the dictator by Trump him self.
