Is Catholicism today the same as it was 500 years ago? Are all the dogmas the same?
Is Catholicism today the same as it was 500 years ago? Are all the dogmas the same?
Luis Rogers
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John King
They didn't take too kindly to s*d*mites 500 years ago
Andrew Johnson
Ignore everything post vatican 2
Adrian Cooper
the papas have the keys, so they can change, loosen and tighten doctrines and make steady progress! exciting times
Adam Walker
Honest question: How does a Catholic actually wrap their head around that? Aren't you supposed to follow councils/magisteriums/popes?
Ian Rogers
Who do you think pushed through V2?
Elijah Jenkins
I honestly don't know. I'm an outsider. Just curious how traditional Catholics struggle with it :)
Jace Bailey
V2's greatest failing was its vagueness and lack of being definitive of anything. It is not that it was heretical, but rather that it made no effort of forbidding heretical interpretation of what it said, that it made too easy for you to read its documents and say "well, the Church is modern now."
Not that you should - because hermeneutics of continuity is a thing and so you should read and interpret V2 in a way that doesn't contradict doctrine - but you could and people do.
The Council is better understood as a huge marketing ploy of the Church to the "modern man" in a world that was rapidly losing faith. But it gravely misunderstood how to reach him and probably made the problem even worse.
Jaxon Murphy
Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964
-John Paul II , address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985
No, either the gates of hell prevailed or this is blatant heresy. Vatican II was a disaster.
Jason Collins
Literally nothing is the same as it was 500 years ago. Why would you care anyway? You didn't live 500 years ago, you know nothing about 500 years ago, and you can't bring back 500 years ago.
Kayden Baker
Oh hi, Pope Francis.
Liam Morales
Brody Sullivan
In all honesty we just ignore it.
In practice we only follow the clergy if they're orthodox in teaching.
If they aren't we call them out and stop following them.
We're all de facto sedevacant at the moment in the sense that we don't follow pope Francis, nor our current bishops (except for the orthodox ones, of course).
The current pope has been rope dancing on the line of self-excommunication for a while now, I'm almost sure he actually excommunicated himself already when he send the letter to the Argentine bishops saying communion for unmarried fornicators living together is ok.
De jure we're still under Rome, but that's about it.
Wyatt Brooks
Alright, tell you what. You live like they did 500 years ago. Get rid of your computer, your toilet, and shut off your electricity. Also, I better not catch you shopping at a grocery store or taking any form of medicine. If you're nostalgic for 500 years ago, prove it.
Sebastian Long
since when are material things even relevant? this whole board is about abstract issues like theology and ethics. abstraction is applicable to any era.
Isaiah Smith
This is a great red herring argument that absolutely destroys anyone who wants a persistent religion that is resilient to modernist subversion.
Jordan Taylor
There's no contradiction between what any faithful Catholic believes today and what any faithful Catholic would have believed then. This is not to say there hasn't been within that span of time any developments in doctrine–there has, for example, those in response to the Protestant debacle. This is also not to say the Church hasn't many enemies within and without all attempting to destroy her–indeed, she has. This is just to say that there's nothing preventing a faithful Catholic today from doing what he has always been called to do, which is to take up his Cross, to carry out his duties to God and man with virtue and in excellence, and to accept with Grace and humility whatever should befall him.
Jonathan Green
God is the same. Truth is the same. The path to salvation is the same.
It really is a puzzle to me whether you're trolling or just this much of a moron. You don't have to proclaim your love of homosex to purchase toilet paper, if you do you should probably shop elsewhere.
Angel Cook
500 years ago there was no KJV, so a lot of people here would disagree with you.
Ian Davis
lol, point taken
Jacob Campbell
Just shows how silly KJVOnlyism is.
By the way, progress was slower in the Middle Ages, but there was still technological progress. It was just slower because everyone was focused on saving their souls.
Aiden Gonzalez
No. Just read the pope Francis's syllabus of errors and compare it to another on before Vatican II. Very different.
Landon Gomez
More or less, yes. More dogmas have become "official" but they've always been believed. The main differences is these days communion is recieved frequently, and certain obligations (fasting, divine office, etc) are considerably easier.
Jackson Butler
Connor Butler
Obviously not. Here's the most recent example:
vaticannews.va
Grayson Taylor
It's not identical, because simply having a pope means leadership will be different from one to another. Pope Francis is simply replacing Catholicism with globalism, the same way it replaced entertainment and news. Globalism is grey goo; it cares about absolutely nothing besides self-replication.
William Perry
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Michael Gutierrez
The whole world has basically been trying to replicate the universal (global/catholic) aspect of the Church.. except in a bizarro, Satanic sense.
But it's sad to see church leaders themselves not be able to tell the difference.
Jason Long
No. Tech is only good as long as it is betowed upon the worthy and morally righteous. Now that wicked men are allowed to have it, it's really more of an evil thing.
Benjamin King
Reminder to ignore animeposters
Joseph Young
Your moronic non-argument is even wrong in it's irrelevant premises, idiot.
Well you're partially right in that wicked people will use technology wickedly, but you're wrong in that righteous men will necessary advance righteousness with technology. Some technology inherently promotes and advances vice. I struggle to imagine how something like VR will be in the long run a net gain in virtuousness (and I mean a direct cause of the net gain, not in a "degeneracy must become so intense that people reject it!" way).
Jayden Hall
People in the Middle Ages weren't concerned with incremental evolutionary development in the material realm. They were concerned with devotion to eternal truths, attainment of virtue, preservation of decency.
What moderns call Medieval stagnation is stability, and what is called social progress is an incessant centrifugal force tearing society apart.
Caleb Parker
Ignore him. He must be one of those sedevacante heretics that fell for the dudes that pushed the spirit of the Vatican 2 bullshit, which was already condemned but nobody seems to care sadly.
The dogmas of the church in 2018 are the same as they were in 1518 and the same as they were in 33AD.
Hebrews 13:7-8
Tyler Peterson
Excellent my man. Taking shit out of the context. Why didn't you take out the sentence that says that those who reject the church go to hell? Hmm I (((wonder why)))
If the devil quotes scripture the devil can also quote conciliar documents.
Get your heretical shit out of here.
Owen Sanchez
As if the context can save these documents. It's already heresy to say that Muslims worship the same God as the Christians.
Adam Anderson
In that part the document is talking about the possibility of salvation outside visible membership of the church through invencible ignorance, as Pius IX as said before.
They say there's the possibility that some Muslims might be saved.
It is retarded to assume that every Muslim knows they worship the devil. There are Muslims who really think they worship God, for example those who are ignorant of most of Islam teachings (basically Muslims with no education and live closed from the outside world). In that regard they belive in God as the philosophers of old.
The Jews in the time of Jesus also said they worshipped God, but Jesus told the pharisees they worshipped the Devil.
Does this means the pharisees didn't worship God? Well Nicodemos was a pharisee and he worshipped God before his convertion. Even some roman soldiers and we seen in Acts.
But those people only have a foggy idea of God instead of the true Catholic picture of Him.
So salvation is possible (although very unlikely irl) for those who really aren't aware there's a Catholic Church, in their time of death it is believed God reveals Himself to them and they become invisible members of the church.
But those who choose to ignore or even reject the Church, no matter how good persons they are, no matter how many works of charity they do, they go straight to hell.
Leo Adams
Zachary Sanchez
Please tell me you're joking.
This is why I would never become protestant. It is literally relativism.
Sebastian Torres
Partially.
The dogmas are the same (there's a couple more about Mary), but many modernist priests simply ignore or manipulate doctrine through ambiguity.
The post-Vatican II Church is building a different heterodox Church, however both truth and modernism still coexist into the same institutional Church.
Ayden Barnes
...
Chase Richardson
It's both terrifying and energizing. Seeing all this shit gives me some idea of what Athanasius and Teresa of Avila had to deal with in their time. The Church will survive, but there's lots of work to be done.
Incidentally if any of you guys have an interest in being a literal, no-joke saint, this is a good time to be alive. Times like these always breed saints.