Writing advice for a fantasy novel with religious themes?

I'm not asking for advice about charactes, plot etc. but rather about religious themes, morality and how these things should (and shouldn't) be portrayed, so that my book can have good Christian morals.

I'm working on a fantasy novel that puts a lot of emphasis on philosophical and religious themes. I noticed that in a lot of novels and other forms of fiction (movies, manga etc) that I know of, these things aren't portrayed or are portrayed poorly. Characters follow vague ideas of good and evil, without going into detail how or why things are good and evil in the first place (this applies especially to works set in different universes than ours). Some works that portray such themes often just scratch the surface and create questions without even suggesting answers. Religion is skipped or portrayed on a very shallow level, not as something that affects the entire worldview and all actions of the religious. That's what I want to avoid.
I also don't want to just write a parable. I want to give a lot of attention and quality to characters, setting, worldbuilding etc but that's not the topic of this thread.

What I'm asking is what should I do and what should I avoid doing if I want to portray a fictional world in accordance with Christian truth?

Some info about the setting and some things I'm unsure about (in pink):

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Other urls found in this thread:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws
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Expanding on the Angels and Demons aspect in a Faustian way would be interesting.

Are there any major prophets active in the story? A "wizard" that the pagans hate?

I like this suggestion, now that you mention it, this is a topic that I like in a lot of the fiction I consumed but I didn't know the name of it.
I really need to (and want to) read a lot more before I start writing.


Yeah, there is exactly a character like that, he's in fact one of the most important figures of the main plot. He appears rarely, but has an extremely significant role in regard to the protagonist.
The pagan establishment actively seeks to find and get rid of him, also preaching that he is a dangerous rogue sorcerer and people must watch out for him. However, he is hidden from them.

It's your story and I know my suggestions go against your plot but I can say how I would like a book to be written.
I think you shouldn't even say there is a Christian like religion elsewhere or use strictly Christian vocabulary. And skip enlightened humans altogether by keeping it at demonic magic. There are many ways you can hint the pagan gods are demons by reading on possession. For example, demons really like to call humans meatbags of shit and piss. They also start lying about your dead ones being in hell.

Tfw wanting to do a webcomic with Christian themes and lurking to see what the board thinks about this kinda stuff

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Well, it's not outright stated; as I said it's concentrated in a small geographical area far, far away from the main-plot-land and nobody there even knows about it. The only sign of it is the prophet I mentioned in my previous post, but he doesen't just straight up info dump reveal it; he only gives the protagonist small and general insights into some things, over the course of a very long period of time (not because he's a "look how smart and mysterious I am" jackass, but because that's the way God wants him to do it), so it's not known.
I also think I shouldn't do this. I plan to have the Christianity stuff be very subtle/hidden and only be fully revealed in the very epilogue of the story mainly to bait nonbelievers and atheists into reading this thing and getting into it, to have the proper build up so it can be convincing and not heavy-handed. I personally knew people who said they loved Lord of the Rings and yet they were big time atheists, which was weird to me. So that's my inspiration here, but I want to go a small step further, to keep it subtle but more obvious.

As for the second part of your post, I don't really want to go for that at the moment. While I believe it would be more theologically sound, right now I'm just getting to writing down ideas and scenes that have been emerging in my head for the past several years, so for now too much of the plot hinges on this element for me to change it, though I'm still open to considering it.


Tell me more

Avoiding a heavy-handed representation is key. I dint think there are many good Christian fictional works outside of LOTR because so many of them are just so blunt.

I'd really just go through, Tolkien, or really, C.S Lewis's works of,The Chronicles Narnia, and i've started reading it, and i'm having a blast so far. Even in the first few chapters, of, Digory and his, Uncle Andrews. There's a brilliant part in, The Magicians Nephew. Where Digory more or less says and Paraphrasing here but, *Alright i've come to believe in magic and it does exist so what? You're still an evil magician holding all of this power*. Which i love cause that's such a nice easter egg, of C.S Lewis Journey out of atheism, or more properly. Out of Atheism, Into Philosophical Idealism, Stepping down into Theism, then finally coming down into the, Christian worldview/ethics. Stuff like that,is really lacking in modern novels. Personally i like the, C.S Lewis approach in his Fantasy just because i like it better when someones worldview is out there. And C.S Lewis was proud to be of his faith. And i respect that. Tolkien was more Crypto in his faith, in his novels. But has that really converted anyone? Sure some people.Which not doubting has played a part for people. but if you're gona do a novel. I'd go with C.S Lewis's method. Just because it's i think it's a better approach. Because at the end of the day, you're never going to appease the hard boiled skeptic who's just gona revert to his dogma anyway. For me anyway. I didn't go into fantasy novels. I went into Philosophy and Apologetics for the Christian faith. So i took a more direct approach, but sure i've heard of people converting from, Novels of men of faith. But i would argue, really you should get back into philosophy, get back into Apologetics. Which i view as Rubber hits the road type analogy. Ok, it's nice to have some milk, but at some point it's time to grow up and get to some real meat lol.

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Gaining power from worship is such a cliché thing nowadays and is related to the consensus reality concept, which is incompatible with Christianity. I think it could be better if wanting to be worshiped was just an ego thing (or possibly being deceived about the importance of worship/being abandoned by demons after becoming irrelevant). The demons could have intentionally chosen to elevate (mainly or solely) narcissists because of the damage they can cause.

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High school adventure/comedy set in a cynical, corrupt, self-absorbed town, so stained with sin that when the Main Character prays to God to help them all, He miraculously shows them the error of their ways… by turning them into bestial monsters, corresponding to the blemishes they bear on their souls. Main cast is driven to repent, and tragedy and comedy follow the earnest struggles of badly catechized young people to attain and maintain themselves in a state of grace while they fight to thwart the demonic forces destroying their town and its people. And to try and save friends and loved ones without getting called faggots. Can they save the town? Can they even save themselves?

If it works it should strike a balance somewhere between Gremlins and That Hideous Strength.

Would you ever read a story like that?

Also, I think that you give demons too much credit, like this
All powers come from God.
Regarding human gods (non-Theosis one, what you mean), I think that you should stick with the undead trope, let them behave like usual pagan gods, maybe give them a bit spooky undead outlook like that of Aztec dieties.
Though to be honest, I think that this one works better in post-resurrection setting, when humans will actually have Christ-like bodies, but reflecting their spiritual state and looking appropriately. Damned would be an """excellent""" version of chthonic pagan dieties, but if setting is set post-resurrection you will need actual fantasy races instead of humans.
Whatever, I think that I went too far on this.

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I'd be careful with this, as though the intent may be noble, it can dissuade a reader into being invested in a character.

It takes away agency from the characters actions, be it wrong or right, thereby making them unrelatable. It wasn't "them" who "saved the day", but rather that it was always meant in such a way; there is no struggle or choice if the choice is already made for them. Without struggle, both within and without, there is no story.

I am not saying this cannot be done, for there are no true "rules" in fictional writing, but there are things to keep in mind: namely the audience. To grab their attention, and drag it along from beginning to end is paramount to any successful story no matter its content. This all depends on who your target audience is, and understanding them. It will need finesse; these characters will need to be challenged not just by external forces, but by their own inner, human senses. You have to know your audience, place them in your characters' shoes by putting yourself among them.

I, too, have been working on a (space fantasy)setting with religious themes for the past ~10 odd years. One of the hardest lessons I've learned, being an autodidact, is to avoid picking up bad habits. One of mine was going off on long, overly-descriptive tangents that distracted from the plot progression(AKA "worldbuilder's disease.")

My advice to you would be to take it slow. Write every day, find your own unique style and prose, and decide who you are writing for. Of course the best authors always write for themselves first; if they don't like it, who will? However, that does not undermine the importance of others who will read it. Know them, understand what they would want to read, and develop your story from there.

For example, things which may appeal to an already-religious audience could be off-putting to a curious, but non-religious audience. If your goal is to use your work as a subtle way to evangelize, then you will have to practice just that - subtlety. Keep your themes between the lines, not heavy-handed/ham-fisted. Conversely, that which is written to reach out to a non-religious audience may be distasteful to those already faithful. You are never going to please everybody, which is why a target audience is necessary. Whatever your audience, the last thing you want to do is annoy or insult your audience.

To go back to the highlighted example: those already religious probably would not mind this as they can relate to this and understand it well, but such a thing would not draw in anyone who does not see things this way. In a most blunt sense, such characters would be seen as "mary sues", which boils down to a character that is not only unchallenged, but has no agency to their actions and whatever potential challenges they could face.

In the end, write what you want to write, but be shrewd and tactful for writing is, no matter the means or methods, a form of communication. To summarize; what is your goal? Who is your audience?

Also, for a bit of advice on how to organize a pre-write, is to decide on an ending first. After that, work on the beginning(the beginning is the hardest part for a writer without an existing following, because it does not matter how good the rest of a story is if they're yawning by the first few pages. Why do you think the pilot episodes of TV shows are often full of action and adrenaline?) You have to get the buns on the plate before you can grab the burger.

In a fantasy setting, allegorical or not, creative liberties will have to be taken. Otherwise the story serves no purpose and may as well not be written. It's the literary equivalent of having two copies of the same painting decorating the same wall.

Philosophy and Apologetics is like 80% of what I personally read, however I'm too much of a brainlet to actually write it myself and besides, there's already hundreds of works by Saints and pious Christians who have already done it, and done it better than I ever could - so what's the point?
I've never written anything before, heck, I didn't even read that much at all - this thing has mostly been an exercise of creativity and mind for me, which somewhere along the way I decided to turn into something useful, and I'm convinced this is a good and virtuous thing to do.


Well, their main goal, at least at the start was to control humanity as much as they can, so they could, at least in their view, give everyone happiness. Think of them somewhat like The Patriots from MGS2. They wanted to create a worldwide "utopia" where everyone would be equal, too dumb to care about things like purpose of life and just occupy their time with trivial pleasures, something like our civilization is trying to achieve right now.

I could cut the power-from-worship thing out, but the idea worked somewhat because after their first defeat they are banished to an interstice dimension between the mortal world and the world of souls so they are strenghtened by human memetic belief power.

Well, my current ideas for the group is that
these three are, in the most basic way
All of these people have some big faults/vices. The leader guy is a vain, proud little shit who becomes the deity of authority and ruling, the most important deity of this religion, the patron of the crown kingdom of the empire so he's the one that cares the most about people worshipping them.
The strong guy is well, violent and stuff so he becomes the deity of war (and conflict), which is very prevalent in the world.
The girl becomes the deity of carnal pleasures and comfort.

Their spheres are mostly related to what's most important to humans and what a lot of them seek after - power (both in the authority and physical strength ways), pleasure, knowledge and immortality/fame.

I'm also considering the idea that each of these deities has their own dimension of "afterlife" which is not real, and not actually afterlife. It's an illusion, a vision that is given into the consciousness of those who have died worshipping them, in a state between life and death. They would be separated from their bodies and essentially put into virtual reality where they would continue to willingly and consciously engage in the same sins they loved in their earthly life. The debauched hedonists would go into the "realm" of the deity of pleasure and so forth.

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Forgot to mention: Also, after their "ascension" the deities themselves are more and more warped by their own vices. Over time they move away from wanting to create their vision of "utopia" for people, and much more into each following their own desires - worship, pleasure, violence and hatred, etc.


They do, in reality, look spooky and demonic. Also I don't know how else to go about it. God wouldn't directly give them powers, before they would do evil. They also couldn't just acquire all those powers by acts of their own will and strength. Demons is the only way I can think of it right now, but God allowed all of this to happen, because it's all a part of the master plan of salvation if you know what I mean.

Also forgot to mention two important things in my post:
those "virtous" people are rare, most are wicked, and those "virtous" ones are far from perfect paragons, they all have some vices, even major ones because they don't have detailed knowledge of morality.

Also the agency and struggle thing you mentioned is very important to me too. I only gave you guys an insight about how it works, but that's not revealed in the book (until the very end). The characters go through A LOT of trials, and achieve a lot by struggling, failing, rising again and training to become stronger. It is in fact one of the biggest themes of the story - great/exceptional people, what separates them from the mediocre ones, how much one can achieve.
The protagonist especially, achieves a lot, and suffers a lot, and he thinks that every single thing he has achieved is due to his strong will, determination, skill and training.
It's only in the epilogue, where he experiences a revelation and is told that he only managed to do all those impossible deeds because God allowed him to. And if it wasn't for that he could have been a meager and mediocre nobody, so he shouldn't worship his powers.
The protagonist completely rejects these revelations at first, as they seemingly go against everything he believed and did up to this point. It's also hard for him to submit to God, after fighting against the deities all that time. So I am keeping this in mind and it's a major source of conflict.

I do have an ending in mind, and most of the story, as well as the begninning. Now I'm fleshing out the details, without yet filling in the blanks between the big important plot events.

Sorry for multiple posting but it's hard to keep this all in mind at once lol

Here.

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This video might inspire you. Also all the other stuff on the channel about angels, demons, spiritual warfare.
For symbology you can look at Jonathan pageau's youtube channel and read some of his recommended reading list books on his website.

If you explain it with demons, you are in effect adding to the story new characters with their own goals and some ability to achieve them. If all you want is a simple plot device for the backstory, it would be better to use something that doesn't generate even more potential plot holes that need to be bridged. Since it's fantasy, you could just choose to be really vague, I guess, and refer to some terms that never get properly explained to the reader.

However I think including the demons has potential. You just need to consider their motives and powers. Making people into "gods" implies a lot of capability at least in specific things. What other things the demons have done? Are there any around in the present? Could they produce new humans with super powers, at least if someone knew the ritual?

if they have some powers bestowed by God, humans can have it too.
Also, as far as I know, demons can, at best, grant information and knowledge, not powers themselves. Or help in illusions.
Humans are made in image and likeness of God, so why not? Although, it's your setting and your fiction, so I dont want to meddle with it a lot.
I don't know if you will be interested or not, but I tried some fantasy worldbuilding and setting was post-resurrection, with actual fantasy races like elves and so on. Main "supernatural" beings were angelic and human beings, with demons and damned tried to influence various races for their purposes and sort of waged war with eachother. I had demons act like, well, demons to work in shadows, deceive and ruin stuff, while damned would act like pagan deities and demand sacrifices to wage war against demons (latter was sort of inspired by Aztec tales about Huizilopochtli) . Both of them opposed by faith about one true God and faithful protected by Saints and Angels.
Anywho, I just brought up this because, while I said that power by their will and strength is technically possible, I think that such thing works in post-resurrection setting far more better, but it's a bit tricky and needs a lot to work on.

Ok, I think I just figured this thing out!

In the first drafts, magic existed and was unrelated to any demons, angels or anything else, anyone who knew how to could use it.
It worked something like this:
>At human conception, a new soul would be created, however a part of the soul would be transferred into the material dimension, into the human body (although not physically don't even ask how this works) - the consciousness
Magic was basically being able to reach into this dimension, take the energy into the phyisical dimension and manipulate it.

I thought this idea might have to be tossed away because I read somehwere on the internet: "Magic in Christian fiction bad", so I thought maybe just explain it as "demons".

However, now I think I've found the best solution. Tell me what you guys think.
Now the 5 deities I mentioned before could do the same thing - their leader (the occultist scholar) would find a way to do this procedure (revealed by demons maybe?) and thus they would ascend, but it would be something evil in nature.
So what do you think?

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I like this kind of theme, so I think I'd read it

Whomever said that has never read "On a Pale Horse" (pic related) and is doing themselves a great disservice.

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I think that newer one is far better, far simpler while less convoluted.
Also first one was somewhat Origenistic.

The "soul" dimension thing still exists in the newer version, with most of it's features. However it's less uh, heretical and no longer a form of afterlife.

No, I didnt mean immaterial world in general. I was talking about sphere stuff.

Metal Gear Solid 2 was a good game.

Hey guys, not to derail this thread but I am also a writer, trying to use religious themes.

Do y'all think it would be out of the 'Spirit of Charity' to like, have a kind of Christian terrorist group that goes around killing corrupt people in government, etc, basically taking America over by force.

I want them to seem badass but Christian, what do you guys think?

What do you guys think about Christians disposing of pacifism and finally beginning to kill their existential and racial enemies?

Checked, Sounds cool I heard a guy from another site say this quote what I thought would be cool for Christian militant: In life, war. In death, peace. In life, sin. In death, atonement but I think it’s a copy form a quote from Warhammer 40k

The only way I would approve of this would be if they were fighting a future authoritarian regime that takes over. Like the whole UN black helicopters Agenda 21 scenario people used to worry about. I don't think showing Christians committing terrorism in a setting that is pretty much like our world today would be a good idea, for a number of reasons. Also if these Christians are supposed to be the heroes they should conduct their war in a moral way.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

Christian terrorism is an oxymoron and goes against everything Christianity stands for.
Id advise going just war route in Huntingtons "Clash of civilizations" scenario.

Whenever I think about religion in fiction, I think of Okami. It's mostly Japanese mythology/Shintoism, but the main character is the sun goddess reincarnated into a wolf. The entire game is about helping people and the animals you come a cross, while also stopping the evil from taking over the land. There's a part near the end that I always found heartwarming, though. The main character is about to ascend and leave the planet, so she has to leave behind her companion, a little spirit named Issun. He realizes that for the battle she is about to face, she needs to get all the power she can, so he paints posters and flings them at every person he can, proclaiming something along the lines of 'you can ask the gods for help and they will surely help, but meed you to believe in them, and pray for them too!' It made the main character strong enough to defeat the final boss, where the game ends soon after.

Not entirely related, but I bring it up because religious themes tend to have two types: subtle and thoughtful, or 'this is my opinion dammit acknowledge it.'

Pagan as heck, but a beautiful vidya game none the less.

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Thinking in the scope of worldbuilding for games, be it vidya or PnP, I have this line of thinking. There won't be any immediately obvious stand-ins or counterparts to any real-world religion; even the actual Christianity counterpart will look a little alien on the surface owing to variant developments in cosmology and society. All featured religions are presented in varying shades of gray, all of them have their good and bad points, with some fringe cases more black. But only one can be considered completely right (of course, whatever one resembles Christianity the most), which a player can determine if they pay attention to various details, much like how the worldbuilding in the Elder Scrolls works. The biggest point of separation between not-Christianity and other pagan religions is the not-Christians' worship of a non-physical, invisible entity (being an aspect of the Lord in the same way Eru and Aslan are), where other religions orbit around physical superhuman entities, ostensibly of mortal origin, but also in rare cases resulting from demonic activity.

My goal is to build a landscape inspired by the best and more underutilized parts of European culture and Americana (but not directly copying it), and decorating it like a JRPG. Setting and tech will be more reminiscent of the colonial period. I want it to be an optimistic work.

I still haven't solved the problem of magic, since I know it has to exist in the work in some capacity but I'm still not sure how I'm going to reconcile it with scripture. I know, though, that it needs to preserve the idea of evil being the easy way out of life problems.

Not sure whether to continue developing this or not.

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Seems I wrote my ants in the wrong thread

this thread is of profound interest to me.
fwiw, I'm far too orthodox (small "o") to be a real fantasy writer OR to be palatable to a wider audience like Tolkien.


read it. It was a very cool series. Probably the last fantasy novel/series I read that I actually enjoyed. (Alright, maybe that was Dirk Gently …)

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This is what I was trying to say here
The problem I foresee is that no one non-Christian is going to read it – they're onto Lewis and his allegories, now – and no one Christian is going to read it because "majigs ebil"
wad du?

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So magic is ok if Christians in the story use it?

Magic as it is understood and condemned in classical Christianity is contacting demons and the dead (latter known as necromancy). It usually isn't even throwing fireballs and stuff, but merely obtaining information, like prediction of future or location of certain items.
Magic nowadays however is applied to everything supernatural. Apostles healing people, Jesus transforming water into wine, Elisha's skull resurrecting some guy and such would also come under modern day umbrella definition of "magic". In fact, some scientific achievements would also count as magic. Long iron stick summoning thunderbolt and killing men in distance isnt called "magic wand", it's called a "rifle".

For any fledgling writers who aren't aware, there's an actual term for this. I think this gets a little overused nowadays, though.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

oh my. then I think it should be fine to have Christian characters able to shoot out fireballs and lasers.

Anyways I have an idea for a Christian themed story, which I might put into the next National Nonut November Writing Month once I figure out how everything will go and if I have time. Here goes:

And…I havent figure out the rest. Presumably, I imagine the fights to be akin to how fights are choreographed in Jojo, where the protagonist(and sometimes together with his team) have to deal with various enemies that can manipulate the Phantasia which manifest into various special abilities. Usually religiously inclined attacks are targeted at demons, cultists and Gnostics where Biblical verses, prayers, incense, portable icons(sometimes relics), crosses and holy water are used, as these are effective against the demonically influenced and demonic. Sometimes if the enemy is a demonic entity, combatants will try to fight without directly looking at it and focusing on an Icon while chanting prayers or verses of Scriptures to focus the mind away from "imagining" the form of the entity faced.

I'll take "what is divination" for $500, Alex.

Only God knows the future

demons and dead arent limited by (fallen) bodies and thus can predict certain things, but based purely on logic and intuition. This is why some "prophesies" of false prophets dont become true.

what an absurd conjecture