So was Judas destined for be forever damned? Because Jesus says it would be have been better for him to be damned...

So was Judas destined for be forever damned? Because Jesus says it would be have been better for him to be damned. Did God just create Judas a pawn for atonement? But wait, if God wanted Jesus to die, then didn't Judas do a good thing? I'm highly confused right now. Help.

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*better for him to never have been born
Sorry that is what I meant to type.

You're confusing the cause and the effect

Right now, you're thinking:
What actually happened:

It would have been a good thing if Judas did that for the sake of completing the prophecy, but he did it to get back at Jesus Christ. Would you try to "get back" on God?

That's a very convenient interpretation. Being that allknowledge is an attribute of God, he would have known this from the beginning. Therefore, Jesus could have known this from the beginning to, giving him plenty of time to act in a way that wouldn't get both himself and Judas sent down their paths. So did Jesus choose to damn him or did God?

Both of them did. They know what he did, they know he deserves divine judgement, Jesus Christ told him what he was doing multiple times which is more than most people get.

Luke 22:3
John 13: 27
Did Judas freely betray Jesus or was it all Satan? I'm also confused.

Judas was just a bad dude, man.

A saved person cannot be possessed by a devil. Judas was not and never was saved.

Just like Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times that night, where is Peter now?

So what do you tell "saved" baptists who were possessed by demons and had to be exorcised?

That they weren't saved

Judas was damned because he was a calvinist actually.

so the guy who was possessed and freed by Jesus wasn't saved yet, who actually met Jesus, unlike you?

the true doctrine (you're not saved until Christ says you are saved at judgement) makes much more sense, your false teaching robs Christ of His Judgement to be frank

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Yes, in fact there's even a verse exactly about this. Are john 17:12

You don't have the Eucharist, you only have your feelings to tell you whether or not you have the Son of God. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord!" will be admitted by Christ.

I was always taught that the true reason Judas suffers is not that he betrayed Christ, but that he despaired. Look at Peter, who denied Him three times but repented. Judas killed himself, and in doing so condemned himself. Judas could have been, and might even be redeemed (though it's probably unlikely he is).

I have the Bible

Nowhere does Scripture teach that Scripture is enough for salvation.

The point is that I'm not relying on ethos, I'm relying on the word and in the other sense the Logos
The Bible says, as we just read, if you believe you know you have eternal life

Can you explain what you mean by this. Because I don't understand

No, you aren't. If you did, you'd look to the Church built upon Cephas, and upon the Tradition left by the Holy Apostles, you do neither.

You know what, it doesn't make sense because I meant to say pathos as in feelings


Why are you belittling me and my theology out of nowhere, and with these broad maxims?
Are you seeking a debate on Christian authority?
I shared with you the scriptural source for the claim that you can know you are saved.

Sure about that?

I am at least. Not sure about you and your traditions of men.

Yeah I'm sure about that.
Find me a verse where it says its all that is needed and we'll talk.

Scripture makes you thoroughly equipped for every good work like he just quoted

It's time.

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What good work are they being equipped for?

But are you thoroughly equipped for salvation?

It's about righteousness. What do you think righteousness is? If the bible isn't able to save you for salvation then it cannot equipt you for every good work.

The gospel is scripture

...

John 13:18
John13:26-27

17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Let's repeat that:

17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Scripture -> Good works. It's the good works that saves you.


You're not. Nobody is saved until Jesus Christ declares us saved.

Faith enlivened by good works.


You need the good works.

Well it's Faith, sanctified by Good works. You can read the Bible, follow it's laws, and do good works. But if you are without Faith, they're dead. Just like Faith without the Works is dead.

Of course.

But faith without works: that of almsgiving, charity, prayer, failure to attend to the sacraments, or failure to attend Mass (in violation of one of the commandments) is truly a withered faith.

No one is denying that. Only antinomians would deny the necessity of good works. Even Martin Luther and John Calvin believed in the importance of good works. Martin Luther stated, “If [good] works and love do not blossom forth, it is not genuine faith, the gospel has not gained a foothold, and Christ is not yet rightly known” (Martin Luther, ed. John Dilenberger, Martin Luther, [DoubleDay], xxix).

It's nice that you think that, buts let's see what the Bible says:

We are in agreement, I was just clarifying so a protestant wouldn't freak out

Our good works are only a by product of our faith. They do not save.

That's not an denial of the life an active Faith entails.

1. St. Paul reminds us to pursue our Faith with fear and trembling. Which hardly suggests our salvation is assured.

2. Christ warns us that faith is picked up as a seed dropped in a crevice, by either the world, selfishness, or Satan.

3. Finally, Scripture tells us that the path to Heaven is a foot-race. We are not competing against each other, we are competing and contending with ourselves, and against thrones and dominions, demons that seek to plunge us into vice.

Sorry, you are -absolutely- wrong there.


Good works are what the soul can present to Christ at the Judgement.

Faith without works are dead.

Thus, Faith with good works is salvific.

...

Who said that we deny good works?

You're quoting Philippians 2:12 but read the very next verse:

If you have a faith that does not have good works then yes it is dead. True faith shows it's existence by good works but those good works do not save is but rather show evidence of a lively faith. Again, I refer you to Romans 4:1-5:

We are saved here on earth by our faith but in the future we are saved in the sense that we are brought back into the presence of God.

Yeah we need to respond to his and actively work with him. This is where protestant theology diverges, saying we can only respond. We can still help people without grace, but they are not deemed good works in his eyes because we are not Living his faith. We would be dead in his faith.

You believe in sola fide and sola scriptura. Neither Faith alone nor Scripture alone saves.

And you will not know you are saved until Christ tells you. You seek to rob Christ of His Judgement through legalism, it is a great sin of presumption, not to mention of heresy.


your terminology is suspect, we must in turn comply with God's will. As Christ said: "Not my will, but your's." Determinism is a deadly heresy.


You correct Scripture itself. It doesn't say that.

Now, you're overly reading into it and changing what being "saved" means. That's just bad exegesis.

Moreover, you say that is God Himself who must pursue Heaven as a foot-race? Christ already suffered His Passion! That's nonsensical. Scripture is clearly referring to the devout here.

That's not what it says. It's not saying that we need to respond to God, it's saying that all our good works are God working in us not us participating with his grace or whatever else Catholics believe.


So you think that someone who trusts in God and follows the bible will go hell? Cathodox amaze me.

Just as Paul knew now, so do we.

I don't think you know what that word means. The irony of a Cathodox calling me legalistic, wew.

It's a biblical terminology but you're a Cathodox so I don't blame you for not being familiar with the bible. Carry on reading your church fathers.

I know it's not. How else do you think we do the will of God? Doing good works sanctifies us by doing the will of God.
We are on agreence here, I'll show you where we diverge from each other.

Of course, and this is by doing Good works, responding to Gods will.
It's the only Salvation and the one we have been talking about.
There is no "salvation" on this earth that takes place other than having Faith. Having Faith on this earth allows us to do good works on this earth to have Salvation after we die.

Grace is the gift that we partake in that allows us Faith and Good Works. Without it both faith and good works are dead.

Gods sanctification is a passive process that takes place in side of us. We are a reactive process of his will. Without having him we would have nothing to act on, or react to.

We are only passive when we cannot see God's will, and being passive to God is dead in faith.

John 20:30-31 NASB — Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Maybe you should look at correspondences with the story of Cain and Abel. The kiss of Judas was not the first, and certainly is not the last time that the Logos has defined itself as contrary to the typology of the traitor.

It would be wrong to say that God singled out Judas Iscariot to be the traitor, and better to say that Judas Iscariot represents our fallen nature by betraying the Logos (as we all do when we sin). It could have been literally anyone else, the fact that God knew whom it would be is potentially just unimportant. What is important is that the sinfulness of our nature recapitulates in Judas' act of ultimate evil.

He attempts to bury God, just like the Pharisees, just like every self-indulgent self-centered fedora. The miracle is that despite deserving the same vile death as Judas falling off a cliff and landing "Blood Upon the Risers" style, that God hasn't thrown us into the sun, and then thrown this universe into the trash like just about every last one of us would in the same position as Him. Instead we are given good news and promises, and treated like sons.

So was Judas guilty of betraying Jesus or is that entirely Satan because of the possession? He felt guilty enough that he killed himself, but why didn't he repent instead?

Does that seem likely? Perhaps killing the outward manifestation of God is like trying to kill the inward manifestation of God (the unforgivable sin according to apostolic exegesis).

Genesis 50:20

God can use evil for the purpose of good but this doesn't mean that the tools he used to bring about his goodness are any less guilty of sin. Also, Christ said it would have been better for he if he had "never been born."