Do you think it's possible that some Jews find Christ via the Spirit? The obvious example of such a Jew would be Sagan...

Do you think it's possible that some Jews find Christ via the Spirit? The obvious example of such a Jew would be Sagan. He obviously found the way to fall in love with God and all that God has made. I mean, just look at this photo. Famous quote: "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself"

This is part of my effort to not use Orthodoxy as a way to limit God.

Part 2 to OP inbound…

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Part 2: Chassidic wisdom teaches that “the spiritual condition of dead Jews depends on the spiritual condition of living Jews.” Do you think that Jesus would ever abandon a people so intent on following the Word (Old Testament)?

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Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallis.

46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47“Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49“But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

If calling Him Lord isn't enough, what of those who don't even do that?

Jews do call God Lord.

Even the Papacy admits that there may be a way for those outside the Church (especially Jew’s — c.f. Nostra Aetate) to find God and be saved via “unsearchable divine mystery.”

The people he would be referring to there would be calling him “Lord” for opportunistic or social posturing reasons that have nothing to do with the truth.

A pious and God-fearing Jew has nothing to do with such people.

It’s my personal opinion that if you think that the Lord doesn’t have a special plan for those “beloved on account of the patriarchs” (Romans 11) that is specifically designed to bring about his glory and reveal the mystery of iniquity to the entire world in one final culmination, it is you who are blind.

Don’t forget, he died for them.

Carl always said he'd believe in God if he'd be given evidence.
I'm sure God gave him evidence in the end.

You are wrong. Nostra aetate says there's no salvation outside the church, even though the church doesn't reject what's good in other religions and the same applies to the Jews.
Have you actually read the document or are you talking out of your ass.

OP sagan unless he converted secretly is likely down there. But the Church never condemns anymore so who knows. But it's unlikely.

I'd like to add some organs of the Vatican released documents saying the shit you imply of the Jews but those organs were demoted to advisory level by St. Paul VI so what isn't approved by the pope and are worth as much as my ass.

Yeah, no.
Sagan was a massive fedora, barring his rare spiritual moments in which he dimly understood religious thought.

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Do you actually believe that there is anyone in shell who doesn’t actively want to be there? The judgment is only binding because God has the eternal perspective to know that the person destined for Hell never wanted to love God in the first place, and never will. I don’t think this applies to Carl. If he didn’t find satisfying evidence for God, he was disappointed about it.


Yes, defined in the most mystical way possible (“non-Catholics can be saved, but it’s still through the Church!”). You are wrong.


Pardon?


All Jews are inherently spiritual, didn’t you know that?

They have to convert before they die, on their deathbed, as you can't be justified without supernatural faith. It's modernist nonsense to believe you can die as an atheist or without supernatural faith and go to Heaven.

Also most likely that man is burning in Hell and as an aspiring saint I would take much delight and pleasure knowing he's burning eternally

What? It isn't even the point of the document to discuss that.
Read it pls before saying shit.
Let be fix it. Non catholics may be saved.
If you want more info on this check Pius IX encyclical "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore".

They don't call Christ Lord.

As an aspiring saint, you don’t have the authority to declare who has faith and who doesn’t. It’s possible to say with your lips that you are an atheist while still semantically believing in God. Romans 10:9 is a sufficient but not necessary condition.


…So you agree with me.

Now my fellows, please look into the eyes of the most important Jewish leader of the 20th century. Does he not yearn for God? Is the Lord not exceedingly gracious and merciful? Will the Lord not have mercy on those who live and die by his Word? Don’t be so stereotypically Christian as to suppose that God is blind to the spiritual disadvantages of Jew born into a Yeshiva culture that actively teaches young children to obey God while despising Jesus.

Ezekiel 18:19-20
“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

John 9:1-3
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”

They call God Lord, and God is Christ.

John 14:6
In denying Christ they deny the Father as well. The being Jews refer to as "Lord" is either demonic or nonexistent, but either way it definitely isn't our God.

It’s almost as if Marcion’s heresy isn’t dead. Pro tip: The law was superseded, but it is still in full effect. Only Mormons think the Law hath an end in Christ, which is Satanic.

Why did you think the true messiah needs both a first and a Second Coming? Did you ever stop to critically reflect on this part of God’s plan?

Finally, let’s not forget the fact that from the Catholic perspective, Protestantism is functional Satanism. How is a greedy, cocky Protestant in any better standing before the LORD than a poor, self-nullifying, God-fearing Chassidic Jew that, I repeat, spends ALL DAY studying Jesus in a disjointed way via the Word?

The dual conevant meme is a Catholic heresy friend. The mosaic law is dead and buried.

To be a member of the Jewish religion one has to actively denounce Christ and belive he is burning in shit up to his neck in hell. So even protestants are better than the Jews in this regard.

It's not a dual-covenant, friend. There is ONE covenant, ONE Law, and Catholics are grafted in by the grace of God who ALLOWS humans to supersede aspects of the SAME LAW which the Jews hold to.

Let me give you an example. Jews are not to work on the Sabbath. Yet this rule can be superseded to save a Jewish life, which is by God's grace and compassion. In just the same way, if you want to obey God, you are literally commanded in the OT to stone heretics. Yet this rule can be superseded for reasons of compassion.

Do I actually have to cite for you all the times that God tells his people their covenant is literally eternal? What about in the New Testament where Jesus reemphasizes the same?

The only "scripture" you have to support your false and heretical position is Mormon "scripture."

Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end. (3 Nephi 15:5)

Is this what you actually believe?


If a Jew is one who attempts to follow the Law, this is provably false. See above.

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Lolololol
Care to submit a better Jew?

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Yes there is one eternal conevant. The conevant of Abraham which the Jews left on their own will.
Pls do tell me.
Meanwhile I will post the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Hebrews 7:18: “On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness…”; 

Hebrews 10:9: “Then he says, ‘Behold, I come to do your will.’ He takes away the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]…”; 

2 Corinthians 3:14: “For to this day when they [the Jews] read the Old Covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away”; 

Hebrews 8:7: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another”; 

Colossians 2:14: “Having canceled the written code, with its decrees, that was against us and stood opposed to us; He took it away nailing it to the cross”; 

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”; The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law…”; 

Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”; 

Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”; 

Cardinal Ratzinger: “Thus the Sinai [Mosaic] Covenant is indeed superseded” (Many Religions – One Covenant, p. 70). 

St. John Chrysostom: “Yet surely Paul’s object everywhere is to annul this Law…. And with much reason; for it was through a fear and a horror of this that the Jews obstinately opposed grace” (Homily on Romans, 6:12); “And so while no one annuls a man's covenant, the covenant of God after four hundred and thirty years is annulled; for if not that covenant but another instead of it bestows what is promised, then is it set aside, which is most unreasonable” (Homily on Galatians, Ch 3); 

St. Augustine: “Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremiah also prophesied thus in God’s name: ‘Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…’ Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the spirit” (Letters, 74, 4); 

Justin Martyr: Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law – namely, Christ – has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy…Have you not read…by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…’” (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch 11). [31]


Stop believing in the anti supersesionist American lies.

Only in the case of the Karaites this can be true. Everyone who follows talmudic Judaism has no excuse. They aren't ignorant of Christ no more. They explicitly reject Him and worse they say He is in hell burning in shit and call His Holy Mother a wh*re.
Even Muslims are better than them. At least they believe Jesus was an holy man and that Mary was the greatest woman there was.

Another swing and a miss.

Hebrews 7:18 – Read the Greek. The meaning is "set aside" in just the same way Jesus showed that by the grace of God we may "set aside" the command to not work on the Sabbath, even to heal on the Sabbath.

Hebrews 10:9 – Same.

2 Corinthians 3:14 – No one is saying there is not a veil. Jews will tell you more than anyone that there is a veil and that they are in deep exile from the truth.

Pope Pius XII – He was simply incorrect to say this.

Council of Florence – for the millionth time, supersessionism – which is true – is not the same as the Satanic mormon doctrine that the Law, which is eternal, has an end, ever.

Council of Trent – Basic Christianity.

Cardinal Ratzinger – Agreed fully.

St. John Chrysostom – It's almost as if he's making a point of announcing Gentile incompetence when it comes to legal matters. He contradicts himself in the same sentence.
Literally, what!?
Straight up incomprehensible.

St. Augustine – 10000.00% true. But "a new covenant" does NOT imply that there is an "old covenant." It is in fact the same covenant. If it weren't, then the Old Testament would contradict itself, because it stresses repeatedly that the Mosaic covenant is eternally binding, which I will show below.

Justin Martyr – A holy man from a family of pagans, with no special aptitude for doing law.

DO NOT CONFUSE THE WHIMSICAL WRITINGS OF OF CHRISTIAN POETS WITH HARD LEGAL SCHOLARSHIP.

A serious legal scholar must content with the following verses:

Genesis 17:7 (Circumcision)
"I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an EVERLASTING covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Jeremiah 32:40
"I will make an EVERLASTING covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Genesis 17:19
But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an EVERLASTING covenant for his descendants after him.

Numbers 18:19
"All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment It is an EVERLASTING covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

2 Samuel 23:5
"Truly is not my house so with God? For He has made an EVERLASTING covenant with me, Ordered in all things, and secured; For all my salvation and all my desire, Will He not indeed make it grow?

1 Chronicles 16:17
He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an EVERLASTING covenant

Psalm 105:8
He has remembered His covenant FOREVER, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations

Psalm 111:5
He has given food to those who fear Him; He will remember His covenant FOREVER.

Exodus 31:16
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL covenant.'

Cont. in Part 2.

Perhaps the most damning passages of all are straight from the New Testament:

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER, NOT THE LEAST STROKE OF A PEN WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED."

Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Clear as mud, as they say. What do Gentiles not understand about such blatant language?

Even worse, you must contend with the fact that the Book of Mormon, which was concocted by Satan to explicitly for the purposes of besmirching and making a mockery of God's Word, is the only text in "Christendom" which contradicts Jesus' own words and says that the Law did indeed end with Christ's fulfillment of it.

3 Nephi 15:5
"Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end."

Do Catholics agree with this line of the Book of Mormon?

Finally, as if all these eternal proofs from the inerrant Word of God were not sufficient to prove the eternal nature of the covenant to you, you must confront head-on the modern Church:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

One commentator states:
"This isn't the first time such a declaration was issued. In Pope St. John Paul's II day a similar declaration. At the address in Berlin November 17, 1980. His Holiness voices his support for dual-covenant theology and the the Church had abandoned its mission to convert the Jews."

Another states:
"You all won't like to hear it, but this document – including its statement about mission to the Jews – stands in fundamental continuity with the approach that the Catholic Church has taken toward Jewish-Christian relations since Nostra Aetate (especially n. 4) 50 years ago. Today's document isn't a one-off "gaffe" sort of pronouncement – it's stands together with the Church's consistent teaching over the past five decades that the Jews remain a covenanted People of God."

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

Cont. in Part 3

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Yeah, you know nothing. You just shot your argument in the foot.

By the way, not to condescend, but you must not know many Talmudic Jews if you think they aren't full of excuses.

But I'm glad you admire the Satanic cult of Muhammad which not only explicitly denies grace of God but also the eternal covenant God made with his people, so in essence all of the Lord's Word and teachings.

You know the documents you have posted have absolutely no authority at all.
Next time post documents from councils if you want to make a point.
Those organs have no power in the church. They are advisory organs. Even the pontifical biblical comitee is advisory since St. Paul VI times.

Prove your novelty that with infallible documents and Tradition. Pro tip you can't.
I couldn't care less what they think.

Stop being a jew user.

Compared to the cult of the children of the devil yeah they are a preferable alternative and will make their stay in hell a bit more tolerable.

Way to ignore scripture, champo.

By the way, God's authority overrules the papacy.

Just like you that ignore the main point of Romans.
I guess will stop reading the bible as well when the (((inter religious dialogue with the Jews))) tells you too do it.
Obey the doctrine of the Church.
The mosaic covenant is finished, finito.

One more thing. God can override the papacy, but cannot override itself since his will is shown in the Ecumenical Councils.

By the way, with the trajectory your "tradition" is taking, if Jesus still hasn't returned in 100 years, it won't be me talking about how the Jews are saved, it will be the Pope of the year 2100 announcing it Ex Cathedra infallibly. Enjoy your all-Jews-are-in-Hell fantasy while it lasts.


1. None of the authoritative Catholic statements you cited even refute my position. I can't see how they do. Obviously Christianity uses grace as the means to salvation. What's your point?
2. What is your interpretation of Romans 11?

You aren't really a Catholic are you?
Because you killed yourself by your own mouth. The Jews cannot be saved.
Everyone who rejects Christ cannot be saved and its a statement De Fide. You cannot willingly reject it and belong to the church.
So do you think a pope can go against the infallible doctrine of the church? Do you think we are only a political organisation?
Because you literally ignored them. Wtf how can you be so blind?
sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/romans/st-john-chrysostom-on-romans/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11

That is the interpretation of the church.

I was being stupid thinking that I was talking to a Catholic You're not even a protestant.
You are a literal Jew shitposting on this board. Back to /judaism/.

Meant for

I'm a Protestant, shitposter.

Reading Acquinas now.

Why does everyone suck this guy off so hard? He's one of the fathers of the modern "enlightened atheists" who FKN LOVE SCIENCE.

Yeah and look at the degenerate hordes of zombies he's created, and how his protege Black Science Man acts. I never met the guy but I know him through his rotten fruit.

Then who the winnie the pooh are you to talk about shit you know nothing about? Where's your charity?
Pray to God that he may forgive you.

The law is not in full effect. The idea that Jews are saved thanks to the old covenant is an aberrant view in Christianity and does not make sense of scripture.

1. By choosing the law over Christ, you forfeit Christ:
It does say that you are indebted to the whole of the law, which by many is interpreted as meaning that the law is still valid but Christ came because the law was difficult (if not impossible) for man to adhere to. The problem is that in order for the law to be fulfilled (if that is how you are to be saved), you would have to follow the whole of the law. Rabbinical Judaism doesn't follow the whole of the law. Animal sacrifices are the most obvious example of something that isn't practiced anymore. And it is these slights that could potentially stop someone from living by the whole law.

Not to mention, Paul saw fit to convert to Christianity even though by his own admission he was "as to righteousness under the law, blameless." If it were possible to be saved by the law, why would Paul value in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

2. Adhering to the law would seem to suggest believing Moses or believing God in the Old Testament; so why does Christ say to the Pharisees that they believe not Moses? (John 5:45-46) When He says this, He is not talking simply to religious rulers. The gospel of John uses the term "Jews" many times and by the end of the book it becomes clear that it is a designation (at Christ's completion of ministry) of those Jewish people who have rejected Christ. It is not an ethnic term. It represents opposition to Christ.

3. The Mosaic law was given to Israel in order to set them apart from those races around them. In order that they might bring about the Messiah and, more specifically, be able to identify the Messiah when He arrived (by prophecy). It serves no purpose after the incarnation. Throughout Christ's ministry, He replaced the ritual laws of the OT (He declared Himself the light and water at the Feast of Tabernacles in reference to the rituals that made up that festival, He took the place of the passover lamb, etc). So to continue to observe these rituals is to deny that Jesus was the Christ. If the law is keep Israel separate until the coming of the Messiah and the laws are signs of the coming Messiah, what does it mean to keep observing these laws once the prophecies have been fulfilled?

4. Most of the early converts to Christianity were Jewish. Unlike Islam, we don't consider our religion to be a revelation to a certain group of people (in this case, gentiles) who have yet to have a revelation. Christ is the way for all men. So if it was preached first to Jews and then to gentiles, and if the NT clearly teaches that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, what does that say about those that still call themselves Jews? It can only mean (and especially this day when all Jews can't help but be aware of Christ's existence) that one continues to be a Jew because they reject Christ. In order to be a Jew in this day and age, you explicitly have to say that Jesus was not the Christ and is not God. How is this not blasphemy? Why do you privilege those that explicitly deny Christ? Surely, if we are talking other religions, those Hindus that add Christ to their pantheon of gods would still be in a better position. No other religion on earth is literally defined by its rejection of Christ.

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I'm a physicist and I detest everyone who belongs to that scientism cult.
Sagan isnt even the worse of them.
His pupil Neil de grasee Tyson, the late S. Hawking etc. These guys aren't even scientists. They reject the scientific method otherwise they wouldnt say the shit they say. They are at the best shitty philosophers or most likely in that business to sell books and fool people to believe them since science is always correct amirite?

Should add:

5. Romans makes it clear that as gentiles are grafted in, so can Jews be cut from the tree. To begin with, Paul points out that God has always decided in the first place what it means to be a Jew. Jacob he loved, but Esau he hated. He wasn't talking about them personally as to salvation. He was talking about how Esau wasn't part of Israel. His descendants were the Edomites (not Jews). So it can't be simply some arbitrary notion of blood. In fact, the promises given to Abraham in the first place were promises given to Abraham and Christ:

And if Jews were not required to accept anything or change, why does Paul speak in Romans 11 of saving some of the Jews that don't reject the gospel?:
It is almost as if by rejecting Christ, you forfeit salvation, even if you are a Jew.

Look, I have no problem with "virtuous pagans" or "anonymous Christians" or whatever you want to call those that live like Christians without knowing Christ and are possibly saved by that or at least occupy a "paradise" still not in Heaven but pleasant. But this argument is not one you would use to singularly justify Jewish salvations. If this is the case, it applies equally to pagans, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, all who live as Christians without the opportunity to truly encounter Christ.

"For when the Jews would not believe, again the Gentiles were brought over. And he does not stop here, nor does he draw the whole to a conclusion at their rejection, but at their having mercy shown them again. See how much he gives to those of the Gentiles, as much as he did to the Jews before. For when you, he would say, in times past did not obey, being of the Gentiles, then the Jews came in. Again, when these did not obey, you have come. However, THEY WILL NOT PERISH FOREVER. For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that is, has convinced them, has shown them disobedient; NOT THAT THEY MAY REMAIN IN DISOBEDIENCE, but that He may save the one by the captiousness of the other, THESE BY THOSE AND THOSE BY THESE. Now consider; you were disobedient, and they were saved. Again, they have been disobedient, and you have been saved. Yet you have not been so saved as to be put away again, as the Jews were, but SO AS TO DREW THEM OVER through jealousy while you abide."

'Nuff said. Is there anything ambiguous about this language? Even Acquinas leaves the salvation of the Jews in rebellion to be a completely open question, which it is.

That's all I want you you see. I am NOT saying that the Law is a path to salvation, or any guarantee of it. If anyone is saved, it is always by grace alone. The situation of modern Jews is utterly perilous, but open-ended.

Ver. 33. Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments!

"How unsearchable are His judgments. For they are not only impossible to be comprehended, but even to be searched. And His ways past finding out; that is, His dispensations for these also are not only impossible to be known, but even to be sought into."

So, the admission of ignorance all around. No one can know this, not even Acquinas or Saint Paul, but God alone.

And yes, you did defeat your own argument with the comment about Karaites. You also completely ignore the eternal nature explicitly penned into the Old Testament, and ignored most of my arguments. Tbh you are making me rage.

Let me spell it out very plainly:

-The Old Testament, taken on its own terms (ignoring the New Testament), constitutes true religion, an eternal covenant
-Christianity is of course true religion as well, because it is the same religion
-It is the same covenant, with grace added to forgive not keeping the laws perfectly
-But the laws is still in effect, even Jesus himself says this
-You believe a 1943 encyclical over the words of the Lord himself


It's almost as if grace doesn't exist.

No shit, Sherlock.

Yes, which is why Jews consider him an apostate.
Other way around: to replace eternal laws is to put into question your own messiahship.
What aspect of "eternal" do you not understand?

You want to know why a modern Jew could reasonably reject Christ? I will show you:
Isaiah 2:4
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

Are there still wars in the world or not?

Laughable. Let me know when Hindus stop being atheists.

Lol, has the Resurrection happened yet? Therefore, this prophecy has not come to pass. Did Saint Paul fail or something? No, of course not.

Wrong. Salvation is not offered to non-monotheists right off the bat.

Being monotheistical but basing a religion entirely on the denial of a single historical fact (the resurrection of Christ) puts them in the same place as the pagans.
Ignorance cannot be applied here.
Those who know the Catholic Church is required for salvation (i.e. Those who aren't ignorant of Christ) and still reject it they are going to hell.
Those who don't know Christ still have a slim chance theoretically, but not the religious Jew.

You should ask a jew if he thinks you'll be saved according to his religion.
Go even further and ask him if a jew can save the life of a gentile if he is in danger.

All of those have the potential to be monotheists, you know? Hinduism can be atheistic, monotheistic, henotheistic. It isn't one thing.

Now ask yourself this: If a Jew 500 years before Christ's arrival was saved by faith, why is a Jew 1500 years after Christ not also saved by the same, especially in light of the fact that Isaiah 2:4's prophecy is CONSPICUOUSLY unfulfilled? What is the difference?

And again, this is to speak nothing of the fact that Judaism teaches that THE SALVATION OF DEAD JEWS IS DEPENDENT ON THE SALVATION OF LIVING JEWS. This may sound like Voodoo but it is the exact same concept to Christ diving into Hell to save all those kept there. If even as a remnant of Jews accept Christ at the end, this affects all the Jews that have died in their sins retroactively, and gives them a slim hope of salvation.

It's almost as if you guys hate Jews and don't even want to see them saved from Hell.

Lol, how? Is a monotheist not a monotheist? What is logic.
Of course, why wouldn't he? Just like King David did.
Antisemitism revealed. Now I know why you are so dead-set on this. Not that I am surprised.


You make no sense. Hinduism is polytheist, pagan.

No it isn't. It is most commonly a polytheistic religion, but there's nothing official about Hinduism. It can be atheistic philosophy or, as is very popular, all of the "gods" can be seen as avatars or faces of the one god. Monotheism.

You are stripping all the complexity out of it. Even if Eastern religion believes in "one God" it is typically pantheist, and the self is typically seen as an emanation of it, which amounts to self-worship (effective Satanism).

I'm baffled that you are more willing to consider that God will save godless people on the other side of the world compared to Jews. Even if my argument is tenuous, yours is nowhere to be found in scripture whatsoever. The only way to the Father is by the Son.

I have to say, you are a pretty dishonest person, by the way. I am not sure why you are so mad for one. And secondly, your initial question makes zero sense considering that it has come to light that you are specifically talking about, it seems, non-religious Jews like Sagan who are saved by some mystical grace not dependent on Christ without even having to acknowledge God (even in an incomplete form like Orthodox Jews).

So what does Sagan's Jewishness have to do with anything in this instance? Why couldn't this be a question about any vaguely spiritual atheist?

I want all people to be saved. And I hope that Hell is empty sincerely and that that is a reality. I pray for it. But if I have to go by the bible, I'm not sure why I would be lead to assume salvation on the part of anyone who hasn't accepted Christ.

And the fact that being a Jew today mostly has to do with rejecting Christ, it is hard for me to reconcile that with what you are saying. Especially considering that Jews don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so I'm not sure how they are promised Heaven. Maybe resurrection in the New Earth, but in what form I don't know.

I never said that. Please don't twist my words. I simply said that if your argument is of the "anonymous Christian" type, then Hindus would have an equal chance at being saved and it seems strange to single out Jews.

And if you were talking about some special grace, why God would go out of His way to save people who define themselves by a literally rejection of His Son but then sentence every other religion to Hell also makes not much sense.

I never said that Hindus will be saved. Just that it makes about as much sense to say they are saved as it does to say Jews are now.

By the way, yes. I wholeheartedly agree. This is what we have been trying to communicate to you. Jews reject the Son. They know not the Father. You act so shocked that anyone would suggest a Hindu could possibly saved "compared to Jews." But there's no reason that Jews should be considered any better than a Hindu. Promises were made to Abraham and Christ. Only way to the Father is by the Son. What else is there to say.

Because a Jew is a Jew. Chassidic learning teaches that there is a qualitative difference between Jewish and non-Jewish souls.

Antisemitism does make me angry. It's also intellectually offensive to me that my debate partner doesn't understand the difference between supersessionism (God allows you to skip certain parts of the law by grace) and abolishment (which Jesus explicitly rejects).

This is false. Orthodox Jews believe in an infinitely blissful afterlife, which is the same as Heaven. And yes, of course it involves the Resurrection, as does Christianity.


Maybe because scripture literally suggests this. Read the thread.
There is no equivalence between Jews and pagans at all. Read . Read ANYTHING. Jews are special and set apart, even if they are all on a train to Hell.

One last thing for you:
Second Coming. Duh.

I am not Chassidic. I am Christian. What does Chassidic learning have to do with Christianity or God? How would you feel if I appealed to Taoist doctrine to make my case for Christian soteriology?

I am not anti-semitic. Ethnicity DOES NOT factor into this AT ALL. We are not talking about being semitic in even the slightest. Stop trying to shut down conversation by crying anti-semitism. We have explicitly been talking about Jewish teaching. And have noted that Jews made up the majority of early converts. Those that are left are left because they denied Christ.

They knew the Messiah was coming and they rejected Jesus. I am sorry if you think God wasn't clear enough with His prophecies and the Jews weren't given proper advice on what to look for or whatever you were trying to say by pointing out that wars still happen, but it doesn't change a thing.


Who are His people, though? If the promise was made to Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ. If we are grafted onto that branch by being adopted sons. If Jacob He loved and Esau He hated. Why are we to believe that being semitic or walking around with some arbitrary Jewish DNA changes anything about you? I probably have Jewish DNA. Does that mean I get a grace pass?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.

I am not talking about race either, I am talking about the religion of the Old Testament. If you don't see the link between the Old and New Testaments, this conversation is making my brain hurt, I'm sorry.

I'm the one actively sustaining this conversation which is well below my level of knowledge, as an act of grace to you. You seriously think I don't know that the earliest converts of Christianity were Jews? I'm done.

You have a LOW view of God's Word and of prophecy. You don't think the promise of world peace is worth pursuing?

I will put it very clearly for you. It's possible to have missed the messiah the first time and still have faith in God still sending the messiah you know. The argument can be re-summarized as this:
Second Coming.
So modern Jews can't be held accountable for rejecting Christ
So can therefore modern Jews be.
Anything else is Catholics waxing poetic in a non-authoritative manner and not understanding what supersessionism means in thinking the law has formally ended, as opposed to just having lost its intrinsic usefulness, despite Jesus' own explicit words to the contrary.

Also
Kek

wow protestants really are judaizing heretics who love jews

If you are wondering whether Carl Sagan is saved, then yes, you are making this entirely about race. He wasn't a religious Jew. He was merely ethnically a Jew. If DNA is all that matters, pretty much everyone is going to be saved because Jewish DNA is all over the place, unless you have some arbitrary percentage limit? If we're talking promises to Old Testament Jews, then I don't see how a non-religious (openly atheist) Jew like Sagan is any different in God's eyes to an atheist Japanese.

None of this makes any real sense. God will do something with His people at the second coming. I don't know what. I don't know if it includes nominally Jewish people like Sagan considering not every descendant of Abraham was part of God's promise.

I also can't tell if this is a trap based on older Protestant interpretations of Paul which see 1st century Judaism as being a religion of works and not (as it really was) a religion of grace that required obedience in return. It would depend on whether this or that Jew is an heir to the promise and receives God's grace. You cannot make that claim based on some Jewish DNA an atheist has.


Stop being prideful. Your arguments so far have not been very clear or convincing. It's hard to tell what you even are trying to assert.


Never said anything of the sort. Yeah, it's possible they missed it the first time and get it the second time. But it would be possible for a whole host of people to get it the second time I'm guessing.

Do you think God loves a repentant Jew?


People are Jewish if their mother is Jewish, not based on DNA.

Seriously? Then you're literally retarded.

No, no you don't.

Was there ever world peace at even a single moment in world history so far?

Tbh, the thread has indeed veered off course from its original destination. It was meant to be a discussion of the operation of the Spirit in bringing nominal non-Christians to God, even before the Second Coming. It quickly devolved into MUH JEW-FREE HEAVEN which I was obligated to repudiate wholesale using stronger arguments than "the Spirit may indeed silently lead people to Christ."

Yeah, according to Jews. You keep citing post-Christian modern Jewish beliefs as evidence for your claim even while knowing that any modern belief can't be tied to the OT and is therefore not from God or having anything to do with His promises.


Cool, great argument.


THEN JUST OUTRIGHT SAY THAT. I LITERALLY BROUGHT UP VIRTUOUS PAGANS AND ANONYMOUS CHRISTIANS ALREADY.

Why make this about Sagan being a Jew? It's possible for God to do anything. What you ended up saying in this thread is that Jews have a special promise that they get to define and doesn't even require Jewish religious practice to make good on. That is an entirely different topic. It also assumes that you know who God considers His people in this day and age. Murky waters.

And you need to stop implying that people here are anti-semitic. No one said a thing about a Jew-free Heaven. It's also possible by your definition of a Jew for someone to be Christian and be born of a Jewish mother. So a Jew-free Heaven doesn't make any sense on your definition.

All that anyone in this thread says is that to be a Jew you have to deny Christ. To deny Christ is eternal damnation. It's not a hard formula. And that's all there is to it. I wish the Jews would find Christ. I pray for it. And whether some a saved in ways I don't understand, I can't speak to it. But I believe the bible and it doesn't look good for those that deny the Son. Just saying.

There is an internal logic to the Oral Law which is above the scope of this thread.

I apologize if this was unclear. Yes, I do believe that the Spirit can silently lead people to God. Is there anyone anymore who doesn't?

No seriously. There is no such thing as an atheistic Jew, by definition. If you had even just watched Seinfeld you would already know this.

Lack of foresight! But I am still glad that I learned all about laughably false Catholic teaching that the law has ended.

Hey, sort of like salvation by faith in God alone?

SMH


The antisemitism was made manifest here:

It actually is a hard formula. If you have faith in God, do you deny Christ, even though Christ is God, and as God, is the author of the New Testament, which the Jews try their best to follow in earnest? If you have faith in the eventual coming of the messiah, do you deny Christ, even though Christ is the messiah who is literally coming back? If you believe as scripture says that Jewish adherence to the Law will bring world peace, do you deny Christ, even though Christ's followers made and continue to make war? Judaism as a religion is about 1000x more complicated than Christianity. There are a thousand arguments from scripture that Jesus is not the messiah. You have to interpret the OT through a Christ-lens in order to see that he is. And there are plenty of opportunities to redeem the Jews if you want to read it that way. Unfortunately if you refer to Jews this way
Then you are going to subscribe to explicitly false teachings that the Law of Moses has an end in Christ

Jeremiah 31
1 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”

3 The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”

7 This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord—
the grain, the new wine and the olive oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then young women will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,”
declares the Lord.

15 This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”

16 This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
“They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“Your children will return to their own land.

18 “I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning:
‘You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the Lord my God.
19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,”
declares the Lord.

21 “Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.
22 How long will you wander,
unfaithful Daughter Israel?
The Lord will create a new thing on earth—
the woman will return to[b] the man.”

23 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity,[c] the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ 24 People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

27 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord. 29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.