In Augustine's view (termed "Realism"), all of humanity was really present in Adam when he sinned...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concupiscence
How can all of humanity be present in Adam? I asked this question in the QTDDTOT, but didn't get any answers. Also, wouldn't such a belief imply the pre-existence of souls? Such a doctrine is considered heritical by Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy, not that I any problems with it myself.

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winnie the pooh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make multiple threads. I clicked post the first time, but the post wasn't created, and I refreshed the catalog a number of times but didn't see my post, so I assumed it was never made. I've noticed this problem happened a number of times on this board.

*I was also too late to delete all of the duplicate threads, since the password changed.

Don't worry, this happens to everyone.

It isn't the guilt that is inherited, but the inclination to sin that is inherited.

Christian dogmas are not infallible. I don't think there's a real answer here either that doesn't involved cognitive dissonance

Adam is our greatest grandfather. His seed gave life to all of humanity that followed after him. Literally everyone can trace their lineage to Adam if one was crazy enough to do so. It reinforces the notion that all of humanity is apart of one giant family.
No it doesn't. Adam could have chose to not procreate with Eve and that would have been the end of humanity. God forms the soul when you are in the womb and He starts at conception.

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The way I read Augustine's is that he doesn't just state that humans have an inclination to sin as a result of Adam and Eve's actions, but that "all have sinned", he states that every human took part in the original sin as an active sinner, as if they were really present at the time with Adam and Eve.

But humanity is both body and soul. Augustine's idea of inherited guilt necessarily means that our souls were created with Adam's, but that is not pre-existence of the soul either (it would be more proper to say that our souls are as old as Adam's).

Anyway, OP, Augustine was wonky in several things. Not heretical, but confused. He was right with the other Fathers that all of humanity was in Adam in a sense, but he was wrong to see it from a purely biological perspective and to think that all are personally responsible for Adam's sin.

augustine is good, but that view of original sin is just common catholic mind games. its not that we literally sinned, its that we were given a fallen nature, that once we reach an age where we can sin willingly on our own rational self, we invariably do.

Become baptist.

Since when do Baptists believe in this?

This is Orthodox teaching, so… begome Orthodox.

As I said, they have guilt from his sin.


No, it was rather directly from Adam that all humanity came, and as such all were with him (fleshly speaking) when the sin was committed and they therefore have guilt from it.

I think Augustine was writing figuratively when he said that "all have sinned", he meant that humans inherited Adam's flesh that is prone to sin. My confusion arose when I thought he meant it literally, that all humans wilfully sinned with Adam.

Paul wrote that "all have sinned" in Romans, which is scripture, which means it's God speaking through Paul. The Bible does say "In Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians

"Sin" is an action
"sinned" is a past tense action
"all have sinned" means everyone has committed at least one sin

If original sin exists in the platonist augustinian concept (inherited guilt), it's not talking about it in Romans 3:23

Uppercase Sin is not an action.
Verbs are not capitalized.

I'd expect nothing less from Pastor Jim. Next week, he'll criticize the Orthodox for believing that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father.

No, you're mixing up nature and person.
Before Adam and Eve had children, all of human nature was expressed only through them. Because nature only is expressed through hypostasis/personhood.
It's not that your particular personhood had eaten the Fruit, but human nature (that we all share and express individually) gains a real spiritual inclination.
This is fundamental to Christology, since Christ did not take your particular personhood; just human nature. If Sin was attached to personhood, and not human nature, then Christ couldn't have saved anyone but His particular hypostasis.

Uppercase doesn't have anything to do with it
Sin can be a verb or noun like any other action verb, "walk" "play" "jump"

But you did not write Walk, Play, or Jump. You agree with me.
Capitalized Sin in formal texts is used to denote a name of the essence of Sin, and not a generic action or object. That is, such is done with Spirit vs spirit, God vs god, He vs he, and others.

He's literally the first physical man, how can we not?


No, but it does mean anyone of the line of Adam (the first man) inherits Original Sin, a corrupted will from birth that we can be forgiven and washed of in baptism.

How? It's a logical proposition, we're all literally sons of Adam in the flesh. We have to be re-baptized to be re-born in the spirit of Christ.


"invariably" is a misnomer, you then argue that there are souls that have never sinned, and that is not 1:1 with the scriptures.

Maybe, but I'm writing in reference to Romans 3:23 where it's lowercase

if that is true, wouldn't killing a man who was to become a father make you also guilty of the children he would have had?

since there are no actual children present, unlikely, with the scriptures, it calls for the death penalty. the modern world has called capital punishment into question, but for God the punishment He calls for is capital.

oh nvm, you were offering a rebuttal. uh, not sure how you could get this reasoning out of the concept of Original Sin.