Arguments Thread

How can I get better at arguing for leftist positions IRL? Obviously internet debates are a waste of time, but I’ve literally never gotten in an IRL argument that didn’t descend into me sounding like Hitler spastically yelling in front a crowd. People say I win arguments (with low-info people at least) but I think I fail in articulating my positions as well as I could / need to tone down the “vigor” a bit. Any good way to cultivate this skill or is it just a thing of knowing your positions back and forth and knowing your facts?

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Debating is, offline or online, probably humanity's biggest waste of time by-and-large but it's still my favorite human skill. Remaining more-or-less calm most of the time is key but sounding a little annoyed sometimes is OK and there's no reason to treat enemies nicely or with respect so long as you don't lower yourself to pathetic namecalling and strawmanning. Letting your temper loose can be effective but only rarely and don't talk like some preachy moralizer when you do.

The first step is to thoroughly educate yourself on capital & socialism. Arm yourself with historical, theoretical, and statistical knowledge and only then consider practicing your debate skills. When you are educated, feel free to embarrass nazis and liberals at any time.

I am definitely lacking in some of these departments. Historical knowledges of socialist states in particular since I’ve mainly stuck to theory so far. I want to get into politics some day so I have to get this stuff down, thank you for the advice, I will continue to learn as much as I can (and control my temper)

fuck this
preach hellfire and brimstone with fervor and rile up the crowds emotionally, then tell them to destroy the banks which are this shit system's only lifeline, international capitalism which subjugates citizens into servants of an uncaring state. let the people see the chains of their own slavery for what they are debt and consumption.

Sounds kinda hiltery to me

OP here. I’m not against going crazy in my arguing as long as I can argue good while doing it. If I could nail down the substance of my arguments and give them depth, I think I could do well, especially since the first thing people comment on when first meeting me is that I “have a radio voice”. I don’t think it sounds deep but I’ve been getting it for years

You sir are a smarty, welcome to the Nazi Party :^)

A legit Marxist with a Hitler-like speaking ability would be a godsend in what ever country he was in

Stats are almost worthless, being able to memorize the caloric intake of the average family in the USSR in 1973 or the ratio of homeless people to empty houses in 2018 forces you into a statistics war that you have to have a massive amount of autism to fight and will only persuade those already convinced. You should never get pushed to the defensive and deliver condemnations of the current system then propose what should be done.

Too bad Hitler proceeded to do things in the most capitalist way humanly possible. You wouldn't see the hammer and sickle on a Coca-Cola poster but just look up Nazi Advertising at the Berlin Olympics. Y'all got duped.

But you can find it on Gucci stores and overpriced vodka. All symbols will be appropriated if porky can make money off of it, acting like the left's are immune is a mistake.

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Hammer and sickle used by Gucci =\= Nazi regime shilling coca cola.

If you can't see the difference between appropriating a symbol of a dead government and a government literally designing and producing posters for Coca-Cola, you're slightly retarded

On the contrary they are very equivalent. We've been told for decades how horrible communism is and that Mao personally killed gorgillions, yet when it comes time to sell shit Gucci gladly slaps on a hammer and sickle to make a few bucks. This is indicative of capitalism willing to align with supposed threats to make money, and that said "threats" actually serve to further the interests of capital.

China isn't dead fam.

I… You… Uhh… you actually make a decent point

Because not socialism does not seek to divide the nation into classes and then turn them against each other but to tell all classes of society to work together for the good of all. Except well, jews.

normies want to "safely" rebel, trendy shit is nothing new.

What a joke

I did not expect to meet extreme individualist jordan b peterson here. hows not working collectively for a common end goal working out for you these days?

Not recognizing a common interest between labor and capital is not individualism. The interests of labor and capital are diametrically opposed and it is in the interest of the capitalist class to promote ideology promoting stuff like “muh Volk”. The bourgeoisie are the only ones who gain while the worker gets the short end of the stick

Here's a good tutorial video:

Read theory.

I don't argue. It's pointless.

I might ask someone a lot of open-ended questions (not yes or no) about what they believe and think. Don't ask "gotcha" questions, either. Just "oh tell me more" basically.

It's my operating theory that people like to talk about themselves and their beliefs because they're self-absorbed. And if you let them talk for awhile while you ask pointed follow-up questions (and I'd encourage you to be critical), they'll think afterwards that "well, that socialist was a pretty swell guy." Works for social situations in general.

Some people are just lost causes though and there's no point talking to them at all. This would be right-wingers who just scream about soyboys or whatever.

Just learn to shut your mouth. But if I say what I really think it's not "I know what the solution is" it's "I know what the *problem* is" and that problem is capitalism and I don't hold back. I will blast it and the bosses and – hell, just talk to people about their jobs and their bosses. Most people fucking hate their bosses and want to defenestrate them through a glass window.

This guy gets it

But hey, that's just a theory


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Did you know gaming : surplus value is extracted by the employer from the employees and there are no legitimate moral justifications to this.

This is what marxists actually believe.

This is what actually happens, deal with it.

and stirner and everyone with consciousness of their actions. they don't even have to believe it, it's what is happening. and if the worker ants realize their power they easily can take down every ruler ever by themselves after all, all political or corporate power is in the end imaginary.

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How many values do you own?

Then why don't you just refuse the value sucking tube that gets inserted in your value storage organ?

the fuck are you talking about? are you socially retarded? can you be it more. oh you're a poltard you're already maxed out there.

Read Marx.

Knowing when to bother arguing is vastly important yet routinely ignored by lots of leftists I've noticed. It's not that you won't win necessarily but rather that you're allowing yourself to be lead in circles. It's cathartic to dunk on nazis and libs but you're spending a lot of time and mental effort that could and should be spent studying theory instead. Consider how often discussions get derailed here because people can't stop themselves from arguing about the age of consent; or about shit like "400 zentrillion deaths" in IRL arguments.
There's a pretty big degree of self-teaching that goes into forming coherent leftist thought and arguing doesn't really do shit to help that process. Barring rare instances, the train to alter people's thoughts and views with debate departed years ago. You've either read Marx or you haven't; and probably won't unless it's to strengthen pre-existing views. If you can't express your views on a topic in insultingly simple terms, just tell people "uh _ covered that in their book _ better than I can right now so you should look into that." and keep it moving. What they do after that is on them. Go back to studying. You should at least try to be polite with it though, so you don't totally close off the chance for someone who's not totally engulfed in ideological warfare to grow into a leftist etc.

pic related

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you gotta call them racist bigot phobes user.
leftists don't stand in the truth, because sometimes the truth is racist or bigoted.
leftists are utopianist idiots, so they only way they can argue, is through shaming and ridicule, like a pack of bitches in a high school locker room.
shit like that is how you argue dumbass leftist positions.

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