Zig Forums, can't you see that the way of uniting the left is to transform the existing momentum of idpol movements into a focused scorn for the bourgeoise? They just need to be shown that oppression of LGBTQIAetc people and the source of systemic racism and patriarchy are just manifestations of the larger cancer of the state and private property. They don't even need to have their minds changed about idpol, they just need to be shown that dismantling of the entire hierarchy is the only effective praxis for equality, not getting in twitter arguments with working class straight white men.
Zig Forums...
Christopher Jenkins
Ayden Smith
Didn't want to muddy up the central point of the OP, but I think Rojava is a ripe example for something to potentially get fourth wave feminists in the West riled up against capitalism. The YPJ is fucking badass and can easily be spun as a point for them to latch onto so that they can learn about other aspects of their struggle for radical democracy and communism.
Lincoln Brooks
It's more complicated than that. When figuring out how to approach people you need to look not just at what they say and believe, but why they do. You need to consider their motivations and what need their activism is serving. I'm not going to tell you that all the people involved in idpol activism are doing it for reasons other than trying to get things done, but I think it's pretty obvious that many many of them are. Idpol is mostly a game of posturing and grandstanding. It gives people validation and a sense of place in society's moral hierarchy. If you present a real solution to the idpol issues around which this behavior revolves, you are threatening to upend an important part of these people's identities.
None of these groups is necessarily left-wing. Why would you focus on them for "left unity" when actual left wingers won't unite?
Parker Gonzalez
There's a fourth wave of feminism now?
Cameron Roberts
idk, OP referenced it so I included it
When you classify a movement as broad as feminism in chronological "waves" you're gonna sweep up a grab bag of different ideologies, so whether or not fourth-wave feminism exists or not (yet) my statement that they're not inherently left-wing should still apply.
Michael Morris
I agree that it's not a simple matter of explaining to them that they're not seeing the full picture; that's why I said that they need to be shown that their entire praxis is flawed and they have to be transformed, not simply informed. Maybe the education could begin with the same tactics they use; memetic images (not "internet memes"), shame and social media posts beginning in "um sweetie". I don't know, I just wanted to express some thoughts I had and hopefully start a discussion.
They're against patriarchy and oppression of minorities, among other forms of social stratification, which are products and tools of capitalism. Whether they know it or not, they're fundamentally against capitalism, and they should be shown this as a first step in channeling their momentum against their real enemy.
Fourth wave typically refers to the feminism flourishing in social media, gaining momentum around 2013. The chronology is pretty fuzzy obviously, but I felt the need to differentiate it from early 2000s feminist efforts.
Jayden Sanchez
I should also say that I do think that at the core of many SJWs, there is a legitimate drive for equality which I think can transcend their massive egos. Penetrating echo chambers is no easy task but as long as it preserves their central desire for equality, then the message has a fighting chance.
Evan Cruz
We don't disagree with the overwhelming majority of liberals on idpol, aside from a handful of the very most fanatical SJWs that are genuinely authoritarian race/sex/etc supremacists. Our problem is with their praxis, namely virtue-signaling particularism aimed at symptoms, rather than universalism aimed at the class system.
DFSNS is doing feminism, secularism, and racial tolerance in a place those movements haven't been totally outmoded since the 1960s, wholly unlike the West: A tribal 3rd-world shithole being ravaged by the zealot armies of a bronze-age revivalist apocalyptic death cult.
3rd-wave was the complete split from practical economic regulatory demands in the 1970s, into nonsensical cultural trash centered on intersection and pomo critical theory. I can't really distinguish any difference between 1980s feminazis and today's, aside from the dragfight between TERFs & trannies.
Camden Gray
This is exactly what I'm getting at. Living in a college town, I experience many, many real life interactions with liberals, and I'm honestly convinced that while their praxis is a very significant part of their identities, still more important to them is a sincere desire for equal rights and acceptance. Some of them, anyway. Can't deny that many I've encountered are far beyond any amount of hope I can muster.
I do agree completely that feminism in places like Syria is vastly different in motivation and function than the West. I just brought it up as an example of how the vision of idpol might be expanded to endorse other aspects of Rojava, which isn't entirely related to my main point in the OP, so I decided to separate it.
Jacob Kelly
Fuck off
Evan Ross
but people will hate fags and poc under communism
Jacob Gutierrez
leftpol can see that.
But leftypol will bank you for even suggesting that.
How can the various lefty movements become united when there is such little room for deviation from the official propaganda?
Angel Gonzalez
I mea ban.
Although they are all trustfund kids with big bank accts.
Henry Myers
I mean mean.
Jordan Jones
I think the groups I included are pretty uncontroversial among most leftists… Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, queer, intersex, asexual. Do you not acknowledge the legitimacy of any one of these?
Isaiah Rivera
At the recent pride march in my city lesbians wanted themselves removed from the LGBTBBQ listings because they didnt like transwomen being on there.
Aiden Murphy
Gays, lesbians and bi's yes
trannies are regressive for women's rights, will never be real women and are trying to endanger the achievements we have got for actual women and risk pedophilic abuse for children. Rest of it is just buzzword soup
Dick = man
Vagina = woman
Lincoln Bennett
Now it's your turn to fuck off. All the way back to Zig Forums.
Ian Rodriguez
Sorry biology offends you, tranny
You forgot to use your favorite misogynistic buzzword "TERF"
Time to start accepting the fact that you're a man before you do either chop your dick off or kill yourself
Justin Turner
I'm a cis man, sorry. If you're going to appeal to science though, then you should probably know that in the modern day, transsexuality is scientifically recognized. Hate to just link a Wikipedia article, but I have to go do shit right now, so if you're interested in leaving your bubble then take a gander.
Kevin Bailey
But how? What's the praxis exactly?
Blake Lopez
In the west yes but since I'm not required to follow your misogynistic culture. It's a trend, trend that abuses women and children
Ethan Myers
The most reliable way to ease them into universalist materialism, I think, is to lead with the idea that fair measures which apply equally across all identities, will help disproportionately those most at need.
Starting hard off the bat with arguments about how hopelessly ineffective their particularist virtue signaling is at actually helping people and solving problems, or hatefacts like "in spite of their lesser rates, the absolute numerical plurality of poor, police shooting victims, prisoners, suicides, rape victims, etc. are still straightciswhitemendevils" is the wrong approach. That might come later, but you need to deprogram liberals from their reflexive repulsion against class consciousness.
Oh, absolutely. Being able to tick off those boxes (and others more relevant to the West, like ecology) when shilling DFSNS is a huge asset. Same with Kerala in India.
Popcorn, anyone?
Blake Morales
They've proven to be very effective at helping themselves. They don't need you, they have the plushy jobs their protection racket secures for them, they have political entry and influence, they have morphed themselves with the education system and media.
Ayden Ward
Not "in the west". In science. That is, in reality, irrespective of culture.
Sebastian White
Obviously those people are beyond help, it's the true believers among the rank and file laity we're concerned with.
Jordan Sanders
pseudo-"Science"*
Your comrades harass and silence actual female scientists who dare to tell the truth. There is no greater sign of terminal narcissism than forcing people to respect your pronouns. And yes, in the west. It's western thing and the west should be nuked.
Ryan Wright
In my experience, talking about things like "particularist virtual signalling" is not the way to go with people who truly believe they live in something like the handmaid's tale and are about to start hormone treatment for being genderqueer. You can't convince them of anything when you're in the role f'ing-white-male and they are in their role of marginalized person of oppression, which is what happens whenever someone starts an argument with them.
Bentley Cox
"Increasingly, research on politically charged topics is subject to indiscriminate attack on social media, which in turn can pressure school administrators to subvert established norms regarding the protection of free academic inquiry. What’s needed is a campaign to mobilize the academic community to protect our ability to conduct and communicate such research, whether or not the methods and conclusions provoke controversy or even outrage."
quillette.com
Sebastian Nelson
But you're still looking at what they believe not why they believe it. Even given the presence of the ones who could be radicalized, you have to be able to tell them apart from the ones who just want to posture and virtue signal. And you should be looking to the emotional need they are trying to fulfill by their politics. If they're upset by other people's suffering and wanting to change that then yeah you could succeed at showing them their approach is flawed, but this kind of thing:
That last one's indicative of someone who gets off on feeling morally superior and validated by a moral orthodoxy. Not only would fixing the problems destroy their cultivated ability to grandstand, acknowledging that their approach is inferior to another ideology's constitutes a catastrophic defeat within their framework. To get someone to change their behavior you need to find another way for them to meet the need that they are trying to meet with the problem behavior. For something as inherently antagonistic as moral superiority over your peers you can't really replace that with something productive or worker solidarity. You'd have to dig even deeper psychologically to the need for validation and rewire that system.
I maintain that this is perhaps the single least likely ideological group to convert to the left. Jaded people who have gone "apolitical" are probably the best since their cup is empty so to speak but they recognize the system is fucked. Proto-reactionaries and lolberts are next best since they realize the system is fucked and are willing to engage in discussing how to un-fuck things, but have come to a lot of bad conclusions. Actual reactionaries and fascists are next down the list because they have just more fully absorbed the bad conclusions. Then you have liberals (conservative-liberals and liberal-liberals) who generally think the system isn't fucked and first have to be convinced of this. And last you have the culture-war libs, the SJWs if you will. These fuckers do recognize superficially that the system is fucked but they cynically (if subconsciously) take up a practice that is not only ineffective at changing the system, but is dependent on the system's problems continuing indefinitely. They build their identities around the persistence of these problems and thus place themselves directly opposed to efforts to solve them, as these feel like personal attacks (which is why they take everything so personally).
But are they really though? In order to maintain their identity as culture warriors or whatever these problems have to continue. What you're proposing amounts to a huge reconfiguration of identity, coming from someone who they see as an outsider or worse an adversary.
I think this is the fundamental point on which we disagree.
Henry Scott
stop it
Connor Smith
my nigga how do you think science funding works
shit's commodified, yo
Aaron Brown
Oh my god, we have a genius in our midst.
Oh my, yeah, nobody has ever thought about that, the whole joke known as modern leftist movements didn't try to do something like that for literally decades now, it works like a charm, when show that all the problems stem from the capitalist system the mentally ills all unite and fight against it by shoving huge dildos up their asses in public which totally BTFO the bourgeoisie and attract immense sympathy from the non-mentally ill working class. Also, don't even get me started on how they seem to be absolutely fixed on the idea that equality means total equality of outcome rather than opportunity. Also idpol faggotry alone has done more to completely ruin the left's image than all the cold war propaganda put together.
Oh shit! you don't say?
The way they act is ridiculous on purpose, stupid.
It's literally cointel pro and white college students (especially females) deliberately turning the left into a joke for their own gain.
Alexander Butler
Marxism Leninism cant be united with anything other than his branching ideologies, and social democracy is also incompatible so if we all get rid of them it could be possible.
Alexander Perry
So you don't think it is good to help people with gender dysphoria as well as we can to be who they really want to be, just because of muh ethical principles?
[Citation needed]
Grayson Perez
I mean, catholic priests wear dresses…
(just shitposting btw)