>I’m not so interested in comics anymore, I don’t want anything to do with them. I had been doing comics for 40-something years when I finally retired. When I entered the comics industry, the big attraction was that this was a medium that was vulgar, it had been created to entertain working class people, particularly children. The way that the industry has changed, it’s 'graphic novels’ now it’s entirely priced for an audience of middle class people. I have nothing against middle class people but it wasn’t meant to be a medium for middle aged hobbyists. It was meant to be a medium for people who haven’t got much money.
Is the archwizard right? Are comics meant for the working-class?
Well seeing how I pirate all my comics, I'd say he's got a point
Isaiah Allen
if the last thread taught me anything it is that Moore is right and based on every aspect
Easton Green
Is he right about anything?
Angel Foster
Manchilds and soiboys lovers of capeshit hate him because he makes fun of how pathetic they are.
Sebastian Martin
That's kind of a pointless discussion. Back in the day they were pulps, so yeah they were meant for simpletons. However, the entire genre is so fucking diversified today that everyone from Bubba McInbred to Lord Fannyprick IV can find something to enjoy. They are overpriced to fuck, but it's not because that was hoisted upon the consumer. The consumer is the one continuing to give money for glossy paper instead of demanding cheap newsprint.
Austin Ramirez
Apart from some good bands, have Brummies contributed anything positive to the world?
Ian Miller
Same here, when your only detractors are 30 somethings who still watch the saturday morning cartoons you know you're doing something right
Eli Evans
I think there's a certain disconnect from those middle aged, middle class audiences and the carnal, gruelishly real stories that would originally connect with those without predispositions to the medium. He's right in that regard, certainly, and it makes sense why he'd personally give up since that was part of his original drive to take part.
That said, change is natural; the next generation will come and thrive and go all the same.
Joseph Garcia
1. why is it that this level of criticism is always solely targeted at mediums aimed primarily at men? capeshit, vidya, shonen, theres always this intense, heavy criticism on men who enjoy it but you barely see the equivalent towards women who enjoy girl stuff? a woman can collect dolls and stuffed animals and no one bats an eye but there are thesises, esseys, masterclasses and entire lectures on men who will play a video game or read a comic.
2. superheroes aren't the only genre thats suffocated an entirs medium and I doubt they'd be the last. the pulps near suffocated under the weight of noir, crime dramas strangle the TV but no one ever criticizes the oversaturation of the genre.
3. why do guys like Moore and Ennis or most of their kind of socialist atheist intellectuals always quote Nietzsche but Ignore Schopenhauer? you'd figure their worldview would lead them to read on him but nope! they'll cite 'thus Zarathustra Spake', 'beyond good and evil' and 'the gay science' until they're blue in the face but the mere utterance of Ol' schopie here makes them suddenly change the subject. its like his philosophy answers a secret about them or something....
I'm not even remotely familiar with Schopenhauer, and I want to know what you're referring to when you say he answers a secret. What is the secret and what is the answer?
>it had been created to entertain working class people, particularly children True, that was the main target audience for the largest part of comics history.
>I have nothing against middle class people but it wasn’t meant to be a medium for middle aged hobbyists. These are the children who grew up reading comics, how can he not understand this ?
The 'problem' is that the generation of kids after them choose videogames instead, and superheroes to them is something you see in movies and tv shows.
Meanwhile Moore's whole success is down to said middle aged hobbyists, if not for them, Watchmen would have had no audience.
Brody Walker
>You are not an evil human; you are not without intellect and education; you have everything that could make you a credit to human society. Moreover, I am acquainted with your heart and know that few are better, but you are nevertheless irritating and unbearable, and I consider it most difficult to live with you.
>All of your good qualities become obscured by your super-cleverness and are made useless to the world merely because of your rage at wanting to know everything better than others; of wanting to improve and master what you cannot command. With this you embitter the people around you, since no one wants to be improved or enlightened in such a forceful way, least of all by such an insignificant individual as you still are; no one can tolerate being reproved by you, who also still show so many weaknesses yourself, least of all in your adverse manner, which in oracular tones, proclaims this is so and so, without ever supposing an objection.
>If you were less like you, you would only be ridiculous, but thus as you are, you are highly annoying’
you reek of sensitivity. there's focus on 'men' because these 'men' create and care about such activities. you're so disconnected from what women are interested that you defaulted to dolls and stuffed animals--affections of a child, not a woman (though I know many women and men do still partake, my point remains)
It's fine to not understand women, but don't pretend that your outdated and rudimentary grasp is, at all, accurate. you wouldn't know if people give a rat's ass about women's activities, because you just don't know what women do.
back to your main points, 1) is entirely a pity-fest because you can't handle criticism of things you enjoy, 2) is irrelevant in this thread because we're not referring to capeshit, 3) I don't know, ask them.
So you support Antifa? Because Moore follows their beliefs to a T.
Aiden Reyes
>1. why is it that this level of criticism is always solely targeted at mediums aimed primarily at men? Because there is a MASSIVE feminist push, riding on a wave of hatred against anything masculine.
So all pop culture spaces dominated by men must be attacked and transformed into female empoverment fantasies, meanwhile pop culture spaces dominated by women are of course not problematic at all, take books for example, women outread men by a massive margin, and large sections like romance have nearly 100% female readership.
Carter Bailey
Moore supports the fanciful Antifa that exists only in fairyland. The heroic underdogs in a fight against fascism. Not the ones we have today: the rich kids who have a degree in lesbian dance theory and the backing of several organizations behind them.
Michael Sanders
>These are the children who grew up reading comics, how can he not understand this ?
THIS. Those children don't stay children. And when they grow up, of course they'll gravitate towards the things they grew up with. Just like how your grandad still loves playing model trains and building bottle ships. Is he being willfully obtuse?
Parker Williams
He's just a man of his time. I think he's always sorta worn that on his sleeve, dunno why Zig Forums is sperging about it now
Wyatt Cox
Two sides of Zig Forums, both insufferable. One blames all women, and one bashes men.
Ian Jenkins
Devil's advocate: I don't think his issue is adults reading comics as much as it's adults insisting that a childish, over-the-top genre like capeshit needs to be "mature". Imagine if people suddenly started demanding that Tom & Jerry or Pee Wee's Playhouse start tackling serious real-world issues like slavery and rape. That would be fucking stupid. I don't think Moore ever shat on indie comics like Criminal, HellBoy, or the like because they were built from the ground up to be more grim and less flamboyant.
Eli Butler
Because people here want excuses to start flamewars and bash people for the slightest of offences. Like this guy here.
Logan Long
Oh yeah, I'm bashing men for saying the git I was replying to knows nothing about women--such a sinner I am! Lord, please allow me to repent in some fashion to make up for this grievous sin of mine. Yeesh.
And then you have Kamen Rider, which is a sticky subject because the show wasn't that kid friendly in the past like it is now while the manga is FAAAR from it.
Jace Collins
oh, he was another whiny cunt talking about >oooh men's suffering! oooooooH! Pussies like that deserve a textual lashing.
Alexander Nelson
You kinda were, because you dudn't even attempt to actually answer his question, juat dismiss him with prejudice.
Hunter Powell
learn to reply. and I replied to his tardish statements at the end because they were whiny and non-sensical.
Hunter Butler
You're on Zig Forums, we're (you, I and him) are not exactly intellectuals here.
Jose Edwards
>graphic novels read by unintended readers That's partly his fault for making Watchmen. Not that I'm actually complaining. Your point 3 seems a little unfair, as the old beard got inspired by Schopenhauer's ideas about God in his Jerusalem novel.
yea, but im here to blow off steam--sometimes you just feel like letting a dumb fuck have it, not because you're doing something productive, but because it feels nice.
Luis Rodriguez
No, we know the kind of shit women are into, and give them a pass because anyone over the age of 12 knows that women are fucking retarded, and are expected to partake in utterly braindead activities. Men at least have the capacity to not be retarded, and are therefore held to a higher standard when it comes to anything, hobbies included.
Justin Miller
okay, so I'm throwing out all the bullshit you said because its simply passive aggressive whimpering so I'll only answer your points >1) is entirely a pity-fest because you can't handle criticism of things you enjoy, not a pityfest (though its interesting you said that) but mostly an observation. are you honestly going to tell me that YA novels adaptations got as much criticism or analytical eye as the Marvel movies do? >2) is irrelevant in this thread because we're not referring to capeshit Its Alan Moore, it refers to capeshit. Capeshit, to almost everyone, is synonimous with comics. >3) I don't know, ask them have you ever read Arthur Shoepenhaur? probably not, so I wont
Josiah Morris
>118266624 >Reeeeeeeeee, no girls allowed!! Girls are dumb!!!
Well, to retort on his behalf minus the 'tardish' statements, have you seen mainstream media lately? When has ever femake oriented media ever been given the kind of verbal lashing that male do.inated media gets? The last time it happened was Twilight and that was decades ago. Anything else that just happens to attract more guys than girls are treated as if they commited a grave sin and that misoginy is the main reason, as opposed to the fact that not every girl will like every media.
Colton Sanchez
He's one hundred percent right, but its not something specific to comics. A lot of corporate media in general chases for that middle class money. Comics got corporate a long time ago, but especially now. Comics about people fighting crime turned into comics about people talking about shit people in coffee shops talk about.
Videogames have completely replaced that "any dirt poor motherfucked could pick one of these up and have a good time" niche of entertainment.
Logan Evans
The British are obsessed with class issues, so I can see why Moore would think this
Jace Sanders
>Is the archwizard right? Are comics meant for the working-class? Can only talk about my country, not America. But funny enough, comic readers as well as mang fans are to like 97% people from lower "classes". Richfags have their hads way too up their own asses to touch that, they only watch live action and are incapable of relating to a drawn character, regardless of how good they are. The only shit they might accepts is fucking trash they watched as kids for no fucking reason but nostalgia.
Robert Perez
I'd argue that Watchmen is something anyone can enjoy. I think what he's talking about is those really naval gazing indie comics made for no one in particular that're visualized twitter whining.
Brayden Davis
>Videogames have completely replaced that "any dirt poor motherfucked could pick one of these up and have a good time" niche of entertainment. Yes, but only if you're playing video games from 2012 or earlier, or buying an older console. Otherwise, that shit's an expensive habit to keep up with.
Isaiah Price
While he don't know about female interests he still have a point. You don't see people criticize those books/movies aimed at females, with the protagonist that have the same personality and appearance, the perfect boy that loves the protagonist just because, and the pathetic bothlicker that loves the protagonist just because. Examples being Twilight, The Hunger Games and Divergent.
You also don't see people talking about how the tastes of females in video games are so fucking specific, if we ignore mobile games then they only play RPGs, and in case of playing and MMO or a MOBA they only play the role support.
yes, that mauz shit started that "graphic novel" stupidity that ruined everything
David Roberts
Hitlerland. And sorry for the typos, I should learn to go to bed after 2am.
Ayden Hall
>as the Marvel movies do? the MCU is a damned event, don't compare it some schlep no one reads. >not a pityfest >>why is it that this level of criticism is always solely targeted at mediums aimed primarily at men? capeshit, vidya, shonen, theres always this intense, heavy criticism on men who enjoy it but you barely see the equivalent towards women who enjoy girl stuff? >>>Why do the people talking about relevant things to majority men always refer to the men who're majority reading it instead of non-relevant female activities?? You're first sentences are just utter whining for no good reason. >Its Alan Moore, it refers to capeshit Except we're talking about a specific sentiment of his, so there wasn't a need to bring it up. Just being defensive for no reason again. >have you ever read Arthur Shoepenhaur? No, and it bares no relevance. Your third point was more whining about hypothetical things going on in the minds of creators we don't know.
Whining, whining, and more whining. Enough to make me start whining, too. Blech.
Graphic novels are a good idea. But a lot of fart-sniffing hacks use to tell their life story with monochromatic noodle-appendage art, which is the most boring shit on the planet.
Ian Hernandez
Didn't comics only start getting vulgar in the late 80s, and that was only some of them?
Jonathan Fisher
Austria? I don't even remember seeing comics there when I visited.
Jeremiah Barnes
I'm saying bringing up girls is irrelevant because comics are a male dominated medium. No need to even bring up chicks, they're irrelevant in this discussion.
Mason Powell
washed up old coot
Luis Foster
>You're first sentences are just utter whining for no good reason. It's good that you tagged your post with Autism speaks, so we know what your problem is. He was pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising men's preferred genre's and activities for their silly nature, while not doing the same for women's.
Caleb Sanchez
Almost, I meant Germany since Hitler only became popular here. But I assume the comic shops should be similar there. It's just that they are primarly manga shops and comics are to be found in the corner or basement, since manga are more popular. I have three shops in my city. But yeah, normal bookstores only have manga, rarely comics.
John Davis
>He was pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising men's preferred genre's and activities for their silly nature When did silliness enter play in the discussion? It sounds like you and him are insecure about your passion for the medium, and Alan Moore's comments come off as an attack to you because you're a sensitive little ninny. >Whubout womin?? WHUBOUT WIMIN??? What fucking about women? Nobody gives a shit, we're analyze comics deeper because of our personal enjoyment of them and how many people read them, not because MEN read them.
Christ, you people are just constantly looking to be oppressed when you live so damn easy. No better than tumblr was a few years ago.
if you reread my initial statement, I asked "why is womens fiction IPs never criticized as heavily as mens fiction and IPs?" not some "Girls in muh fandom is forbiddon" horseshit.
are you looking for Bantz or are you that retarded that you can't comprehend what my statements mean?
Ah, I was thinking of Hitler's birthplace, not the place where he started his career. From what little I know, in Europe comics are still the domain of the lower class in some ways, but in others they're enjoyed by the middle and upper class. I know of a para-legal in the Balkans who loves to read and discuss comics, and you have the general popularity of Alejandro Jodorowsky (not exactly Rob Liefeld)...
Carter Scott
>why is womens fiction IPs never criticized as heavily as mens fiction and IPs? Yeah, I'M the retard when you're the one who has to ask this question? Because nobody fucking gives a shit about women's IPs. Really needed that explained to you?
