Why are most cartoons so cowardly about this?

Yes.

>Simon seemed more in the position to get redeemed
More than Catra.
Not more than Spinel, not in the least

Is it really? It's a simple cause-consequence effect--be shitty, have a shitty end to your story. It doesn't sound so hard to grasp.

While I agree that seeing one toxic sympathetic villain getting consequence for their actions and not being forgiven, they made way too good a job in book 3 to justify his actions, to the point where some of it is unintentional. Grace, Samantha, and the train are so responsible for his misery that it's hard to hate him or see him as a monster. Had he and Grace been the ones who made up the conductor and they both deep down knew it was bullshit, or if it was revealed that even before the train he was a psycho, I would be fine where he ends up because then the blame would be 50-50. But how it's done in book 3 it's more 70-30.
I guess you could say Catra and Spinel are also that way because of their own abusers, but the context and world they are in don't really justify them. Catra could have always gone with Adora and join the heroes (she ends up doing it anyway) and Spinel could have just went to Stevens house and ranted about it instead of trying to blow up the earth. Both of them had people who were always there to help them but refused their help until way later, while Simon was on a death train alongside a cult leader that confused and manipulated him who made everything worse because she didn't wants to accept responsibility.
He's not a saint by any means, but so much of his worst aspects are so directly to blame to someone else that he ends up WAAAY more sympathetic than those other two bitches, and his exaggerated death is completely undeserved and unsatisfying.
What a letdown Book 3 ended up being.

Attached: 1597960027904.jpg (1500x1500, 176.41K)

Well, their stories are very different.
All three of them were hurt and abandoned, but Simon ended as a tragic villain, victim of his own trauma-fueled ideology, while Spinel was actually redeemed by love and Catra kinda awkwardly was allowed to finally join the good guy team in the end.
Spinel was the victim of a cruel joke that left her alone and forgotten, causing her to strike out against the person who hurt her.
Catra was more or less just a power-hungry bitch in an evil machine for the sake of a super limited personal feud that batters a planet.
Simon was left alone by his maternal figure in a high-stress situation and went on a genocidal rampage for a decade because he couldn't let go of his hatred or ever admit fault. And he is actively shown to be weak for retreating into his fantasies rather than adjusting his views when presented with new information. He sacrifices EVERYTHING for the sake of his delusion and hate. Even his best friend and lover he tries to murder before he allows for his ideas to be questioned. He is a very classic tragic villain rising and falling by his fundamental flaw.
Which makes OP's pic hilarious. Seeing redemption as weakness is what defines him.

Oh my fucking God what is it with Simonfags and trying to pretend he's completly blameless in anything he did?
Like holy fuck Grace was a kid same as him not Jim Jones and the Cat just ran without thinking

He helped create the cult. When he found out it was founded on a mistake, he doubled down into delusion.

This. Grace became the hero because she questioned her axiomatic beliefs, accepted new information, chose compassion over wanton destruction and stopped denying personhood to people who aren't like her.
I swear, these Simonfags have to be some kind of religious racists to not see the monstrosity of his actions and fault in his inability to stop.

Do you have like, any life experience? In real life people can't be "redeemed" by singing a song. People's decisions still have consequences. They should be addressed instead of expecting people to change in a couple minutes from an episode of a show.
You seem to be missing out on understanding of human nature.
As I suspected, you're a social media sort of person.

Honestly, I was instictually expecting them to forgive Simon at some point during the final confrontation, so the fact they didn't made for a very courageus ending--something SU's movie lacked a lot. Not only that, Simon could call out for help at any moment, he wasn't in a completely hopeless situation. Had he not killed Tuba, for example, his spirel into insanity an eventual death could've been avoided.

> In real life people can't be "redeemed" by singing a song.

Exactly. That's why Simon's arc is better and more realistic than Catra's and Spinel's.

Fucking Simonfags, I swear, he should've gotten wheeled if you ask me

Attached: 1575701827251.png (476x353, 226.27K)

as I said, he's not a saint or excused of everything, but if you're going to talk about toxic ex-friends, he's way more sympathetic than the others because of his situation. Im not a Simonfag, the last episodes made me stop caring about the character because of how badly he and everything else was handled. Grace was a kid, but her lies brainwashed Simon pretty hard and she did it just to feel better about herself, and the cat even straight-up admits "yeah, I'm a piece of shit, that's just how it is". Like she doesn't try to justify it or anything she just accepts she sucks and isn't that bothered by it.
>This. Grace became the hero because she questioned her axiomatic beliefs, accepted new information, chose compassion over wanton destruction and stopped denying personhood to people who aren't like her.
because she was given a perfect little girl to relate and way more options as compared to Simon who got repeatedly cucked because of Grace treating him like a criminal and lying to him. Grace is also easier to convince since she was the one who started the cult and knew deep down that it was bullshit, Simon didn't. Grace took advantage of Simons vulnerable position and exploited it so that she could have someone she could impress, the fucking show even admits this. The issue came when she said "yeah I'm responsible but fuck you" in the final fight.
>I swear, these Simonfags have to be some kind of religious racists to not see the monstrosity of his actions and fault in his inability to stop.
the way I see it, you're the one who didn't get the story for you to call him a monster. If a show for kids about empathy made you feel this way, you probably didn't get it user. How embarrassing.

Attached: Graceç.jpg (1600x900, 165.38K)

>Grace was a kid, but her lies brainwashed
She was lying or brainwashing him, she just like him was a confused kid and all she did was tell him how she thought the train worked, she didn't force anything on him.

Are you implying these to be from the same person?
Because they are not.
And no, I am not a social media person.

Well, yeah. It's the central driving force of the plot, rather than a secondary concern in a musical or a byproduct of childish, drawn-out family drama that really only wants to show off cool princesses.
If you start with a Shakespearean premise for what is basically a self-contained stage play, you can set up your central protagonist/antagonist relationship very well.

No harm no foul is the basic rule for redemptions.

>Not only that, Simon could call out for help at any moment, he wasn't in a completely hopeless situation. Had he not killed Tuba, for example, his spirel into insanity an eventual death could've been avoided.
He wasn't a helpless little baby that did nothing wrong, but the lies and manipulation from Grace throughout the episodes were what made him go down that path, and his murder of Tuba came from a belief she implanted in him. Unlike the other two who had friends who did nothing wrong. Adora and Steven are very obviously good guys (besides Future anyways, fuck that show) who do almost everything right. Grace didn't, her mistakes made him worse, and if she were to confront him directly, all of this would have been avoided. She didn't.
It is courageous but I appreciate good writing over bold shocking moves.

Irredeemable characters are for quitters

>Started the cult
She was a little girl user, she did whatever she needed too to keep them alive, both of them. She saved Simon's life every single time, and she would have saved him again ay the end if he hadn't push her to her death.

>her lies brainwashed Simon pretty hard
Nigga they were both kids, thing is both Simon and Grace had their chance, they were in a pretty much same situation, but while Grace managed to change for the better, Simon meanwhile didn't even try to bond with Hazel unlike Grace and could barely disguise his contempt for Tuba like a fucking autist he was

>She was lying or brainwashing him, she just like him was a confused kid and all she did was tell him how she thought the train worked, she didn't force anything on him.
Did you like not see the final episodes? She admits straight up that she lived the way she did to impress people and stand out because otherwise, nobody paid attention to her. She made that shit up the spot just so she could impress Simon, telling him that she knew all about numbers. When the conductor saved her, she didn't really see her as a goddess or anything, but she fooled herself into that when she spread the lie in order to get people to like her.
she could have saved their lives without starting a cult and just surviving. Simon would have followed her anyways, so she chose this path.
Not the same at all. Grace was able to interact with Hazel in every episode until ep 5, and she was doing it with somebody she thought was human. Simon and Tuba hated each other from the beginning and having ONE adventure where they didn't despise each other is not the same as making friends. That episode was less "people bonding" and more "enemies joining forces in order to survive", which is a trope that happens all the time between heroes and villains.
Had Tuba been disguised as a human and interacted with Simon in different ways, then you could make an argument that him murdering her is monstrous. But he didn't, he barely interacted with her and the worldview Grace gave him made him think it was ok to kill her. Grace also talked to him earlier about getting rid of her eventually.

Attached: ep8 season 3.jpg (976x817, 121.36K)

Spinel's sudden turn into a good guy was almost as bad as her slip back into being a bad guy
>Is that all you needed me for? To turn off my Injector?
>No! Well... Sort of.
they had to make Steven eat a whole idiot pie for it to happen

Attached: SU_Movie_1475.png (1912x1072, 1.73M)

Out of curiosity how do people outside Zig Forums view Simon? I find that in a lot of fandoms people tend to blindly hate characters similar to him without thinking of the logistics and environmental factors that drive them to do shit while excusing and loving characters that do objectively worse shit even in the same story.

Don’t blame him. Spinel is an ass.

>Exactly. That's why Simon's arc is better and more realistic than Catra's and Spinel's.
better and more realistic than shit isn't an accomplishment

>he had more sympathetic traits
He tortured and murdered sentient beings even after getting to know them. He trapped the person he was closest to in her own mind and left her to rot, and when she came back he turned the murder cult he'd co-founded against her, with the intent of executing her in a horrific way.

He really doesn't have more sympathetic traits. He wasn't abused and tortured as a kid, he didn't devote himself to someone only to be left abandoned for a thousand years. He was just someone that couldn't accept being wrong.

Fuck Simon.

they either despise him and can't stand his face or they hate him but think he's a super deep well-done character. They're both wrong

>Did you like not see the final episodes?
Holy fuck, the show makes it clear Grace can be manipulative but it's clear she was just a kid same as him, she wasn't making anything up when it came to the conductor she told what she genuinely thought.

>he barely interacted with her
Ok that's bullshit he had an episode bonding with her, and learning about how she is.

Would you forgive someone like Simon irl and call yourself a winner?

the only cartoon opinions on the Internet that matters is on Zig Forums because people here are actually autistic enough to have more than a surface understanding of characters

Attached: Pink laughs at your misery.jpg (1280x720, 109.9K)

I said irredeemable, not unforgivable.

>He tortured and murdered sentient beings even after getting to know them
who? He didn't torture Tuba and didn't even get to fully know her. 11 minutes is not an in-depth bonding experience. If you're talking about his torture of nulls, Grace also did that, so are you gonna blame her for that too?
>He trapped the person he was closest to in her own mind and left her to rot
not that disturbing considering she was able to break free eventually, so it was more incapacitating her rather than murder.
>and when she came back he turned the murder cult he'd co-founded against her
That is pretty bad, but that happened AFTER Grace made him go in a whirlwind of emotions, betraying, lying, and manipulating him. So while it's not justified as a good thing, it's more understandable
>He really doesn't have more sympathetic traits.
user didn't get a kids show story about empathy,
>He wasn't abused and tortured as a kid,
What, and that's what makes a sympathetic character to you?
>he didn't devote himself to someone only to be left abandoned for a thousand years
he devoted himself to Grace and was wronged by her, so....
>He was just someone that couldn't accept being wrong.
due to the actions of other individuals preventing him from seeing the truth.
>Grace wasn't making anything up when it came to the conductor she told what she genuinely thought.
She did make it up, she made it up on the spot to impress Simon making him think she was an expert in numbers since she wanted a friend. It was fucking obvious. And even if she was a kid, she kept doing it, and she admits she's the one in the wrong IN THE EPISODE.
>Ok that's bullshit he had an episode bonding with her, and learning about how she is.
WOW, 11 MINUTES. THAT TOTALLY MAKES UP FOR 33 MINUTES OF THEM HATING EACH OTHER AND A LIFETIME OF HATING NULLS.
You're probably the type of person who thinks SU did good redemption arcs for the diamonds if you think that should be enough.

Same difference. The thing is: writers are morally blind most of the time whe it comes to this. For instance, why Hordak got to redeem himself while Prime didn't? They are basically the same character but in a different scale of intensity.

>why Hordak got to redeem himself while Prime didn't?
because Entrapta wanted to fuck him.
That is literally the reason why, and I don't understand why people call She-Ra a "well-written" show with shit like that.
I mean Catra sucks too, but she had an arc. A HORRIBLE arc, but an arc nonetheless. Hordak got none of that and he was still forgiven, what the fuck?