What's wrong with subverting expectations again?

this

Things that are established and persistent are so because there's some inherent quality to it. People enjoy old school star wars and the traditional heroic narratives, regardless of whether or not "intellectuals" think it's dumb and simplistic

Postmodernist "artists" just taking established and persistent things and "deconstructing" (i.e. "shitting all over") them is a terrible trope that will hopefully stop as soon as they run out of established franchises to "deconstruct"

Basicaly the same thing and fundamentaly right
Thank you based anons

You have to give something in return.

I completely disagree
You Can deconstruct and recreate a franchise like star Wars
However, in order to do it, there need to be a tremendous amount of work and talent. Both are lacking in nu-wars, and especially in Rian's episode
To deconstruct, you need to know why it worked in the first place and what makes it's essence. Rian did none of that job and juste blew UP the whole thing.

Because we expect his subverting expectations ergo vis a vis concordantly our expectations are not subverted. You cannot subvert expectations when it is our expectation to be subverted. Thus, in order to subvert expectations again, you have to NOT subvert expectations because the expectation is to be subverted. To NOT subvert expectations you have to be sincere, ipso facto is subverting expectations by being unexpected. Unless of course, being sincere is also expected, accordingly, you're back to square one, so you use non-sequiturs humorously because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. BAM! Subverted!

Well theoretically, "deconstruction" in and of itself isn't bad. Metal Gear Solid 2 does it really well, for example.

But the trend in hollywood in recent years isn't a positive one. It's the same case with all: You take established conventions, and you refute them, while not replacing them with anything. It's indicative of postmodern art in general, where the "defiance of any convention" is what is at the essence. Only, people (other than douchebag artists) hate postmodern art, because it's generally boring, hollow and uninteresting. The only way they can make people give a shit about their shallow "postmodernism" is by attaching it to some previously established franchise, as dickhead Rian Johnson has so gloriously demonstrated

At this point the biggest expectations subversion imaginable would be Disney making a Star Wars movie without pozzing, minorities, trannies, politics, feminism, and terrible writing. My brain would be blown by such subversion.

>You expected something good and I gave you something poopy instead
>hahaha totally subverted your expectations bro

a lot when it's shit

you need to have something really good to offer instead of what was expected
you can't just say "I'm too cool to make a normal Star Wars movie! what do you mean what can I make instead? I surprised you isn't that enough?"

Nothing if you pull it off, but you have to replace what i was expecting with something better..

So what movie is worse, TLJ or TROS?

TLJ

TLJ is your boyfriend raping you
TROS is him desperately trying and failing to make up for it afterwards

There's a great distinction between "subverting tropes" and "subverting expectations."
The latter can be summed up as creating surprise. You can be sincere and still be surprising by using red herring (misdirection) and foreshadowing.

You can subvert tropes and end up being predictable. Making strong women is subverting a trope, but at this point is very predictable.

If the audience can guess where you're taking the story, you're not subverting expectations. Rian subverts tropes, not expectations, because he's being predictably contrarian.

Well for one if you are trying to shock people by subverting their expectations don't do it in a way that makes the story less interesting

I'm torn at this. There were some things I liked in TLJ, like the Kylo and Rey relationship and I can sorta get on the idea of jaded Luke. At least there was an attempt at something there, though it flopped on its face, contradicting itself. Don't misunderstand me, I think TLJ is real bad, but I got absolutely nothing out of TROS. Can barely remember what even happened in that movie. I think I prefer Rian's shitshow over JJ adequacy.

my reasoning is that TROS at least TRIES to please you. It fucks up in every regard, but it really DOES try
TLJ just feels like a massive "fuck you" to all of fandom

the problem is he subverted expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. Rather than focus on making a film with a coherent plot with sensible characters and a clear beginning, middle and end he made goofy schlock and said "YAY I'M DIFFERENT :-) "

Yeah, I can get on board with that. It was painful seeing Luke like that, dying like a bitch while hiding on some bumfuck planet.

Nothing, as long as it isn't at the expense of anything else. Rian's subversions fucked with the characters massively.

TFA being such a flimsy film is what causes TLJs downfall. If you subvert expectations you really just end up doing nothing. When your movie is essentially built ontop of empty unplanned plot points you get that trash again.

Nothing. If you can do it right. Or in Rian's case know what it means to begin with, and not just toss the phrase out there as an excuse as to why you blew it.