Naruto ended up getting his cock sucked by everyone, including villains, like he is Jesus

And? I've probably read more manga than you retard-kun

>Because Rock Lee isn't the main character. It's not his story, he's just there to act as a stake raiser.
So it's still bad writing then? To have a character push the idea of hard work as a message only to shit all over it?

>So it's still bad writing then?
How's it bad writing? Every Shounen has a character that's introduced as really strong to then job to another guy to hype them up. He also acts as emotional fodder for a brief moment, which is more than most characters of his type get.
Keep in mind, Lee has never won a single fight, and past the Chuunin Exams he does nothing of value.
>To have a character push the idea of hard work as a message only to shit all over it?
Part of Lee's defeat was his own self-destruction though, and some of his stuff couldn't be just attained with 'hard work', as he literally had a talent for using the eight gates.
Also, Naruto's message wasn't about hard work. It was about the bonds you make with others. At no point is hard work a focal point beyond Rock Lee's role in the Chuunin Exams.

It has some really nice highs (the Pain arc is pretty fucking solid) but overall it's a mess. Kishimoto is really shit at consistency and just changes his plans every other arc, making them feel very disconnected.

cope

>Every Shounen has a character that's introduced as really strong to then job to another guy to hype them up.
>He also acts as emotional fodder for a brief moment, which is more than most characters of his type get.
>Keep in mind, Lee has never won a single fight, and past the Chuunin Exams he does nothing of value.
You just explained for me.

>It has some really nice highs (the Pain arc is pretty fucking solid) but overall it's a mess.
Past the first three arcs, not really.
The first three arcs have issues with inconsistency in character and theming (as well as art in Search for Tsunade). However, Sasuske Retrieval is where Kishimoto hits his stride in just about every area.
All the arcs from Kazekage Rescue up to Five Kage Summit aim to show Naruto's fall and rise, as well as Sasuke's rise and fall. While Naruto contemplates over how weak he is, Sasuke is revelling in his strength. When Sasuke has finally achieved his goal, Naruto is stuck in realization that he's only getting further away.
Jinchuuriki Training is an extension of this but solely for Naruto's side, and it just acts to give him a brief power boost following the strengthening of his resolve at the end of Five Kage Summit.
The War Arc is arguably a mess, but it just aims to further Sasuke's development as well as showcase all the bonds Naruto has developed, but once Juubito hits the scene, it starts to get a tad nonsensical until the war is over.
>and just changes his plans every other arc
Actually, Kishimoto planned most of his stuff. Minato was Naruto's father from at least Chapter 14, Itachi was a good guy since Volume 16 according to Kishi, Obito was planned from at the very least Kakashi Gaiden and potentially earlier considering Obito had a finalized design since Chapter 14, and so on. Only unplanned thing was Madara sticking around and Kaguya.
Lee isn't the focus.
Hard work isn't the theme.
Therefore, this isn't bad writing, you just don't like the style of narrative the story is going for.

>Actually, Kishimoto planned most of his stuff. Minato was Naruto's father from at least Chapter 14, Itachi was a good guy since Volume 16 according to Kishi, Obito was planned from at the very least Kakashi Gaiden and potentially earlier considering Obito had a finalized design since Chapter 14, and so on. Only unplanned thing was Madara sticking around and Kaguya.
It's not because this was planned that it wasn't a fucking mess. Itachi mindraped Sasuke and tried to get him to kill his best friend, then join Orochimaru, then he acted surprised that Sasuke was a criminal after that.

Every arc felt disconnected. Remember Sasuke retrieval 2 where they made it look like Sai would replace Sasuke and be important? Sai never did anything else of note in the manga

Remember that elements training arc? The very moment Naruto landed his Rasenshuriken on Kakuzu it stopped being relevant

Remember when Kakashi asspulled a way for Naruto to train years through clones because Kishimoto didn't care about making him strong during the timeskip?

Remember Naruto learning sage mode and becoming Kage tier in a fucking week?

Remember all those dropped plot points that Kishi thought he'd make but forgot about?

Remember Danzo becoming the scapegoat for literally everything?

You told me he was a worthless story fodder that existed only be thrown away. Yes, it's bad writing.

>Itachi mindraped Sasuke
To want him to seek revenge and become a hero of Konoha while the truth of Itachi faded into the shadows completely.
>and tried to get him to kill his best friend
Because Itachi only cares for the safety of Konoha and his little brother. This stated many times. He's not a paragon of virtue, he's not someone you look up to, he is the definition of a shinobi tool with one fatal flaw.
>then join Orochimaru
He didn't do that, that was Sasuke's own choice.
>then he acted surprised that Sasuke was a criminal after that.
Because he made a contingency plan to stop "Madara" from telling Sasuke the truth. Obito even admits that had Itachi known about his Mangekyo power, Itachi probably would've found a workaround.
>Every arc felt disconnected. Remember Sasuke retrieval 2 where they made it look like Sai would replace Sasuke and be important? Sai never did anything else of note in the manga
You missed the point. Sai wasn't meant to be the Sasuke replacement, he was meant to be a character, with an arc he goes through. Past that point, he just exists to help push people like Sakura into doing things they wouldn't normally do, as well as shed light on Danzo.
>Remember that elements training arc? The very moment Naruto landed his Rasenshuriken on Kakuzu it stopped being relevant
I'll give you that, mostly because that was the weakest arc of Part 2.
>Remember Naruto learning sage mode and becoming Kage tier in a fucking week?
Yes, and Sage Mode is a legendary technique used by very few people and it has limited amount of use.
>Remember all those dropped plot points that Kishi thought he'd make but forgot about?
Not really.
>Remember Danzo becoming the scapegoat for literally everything?
Just the Itachi stuff really, and Itachi is still a bad person. He worked with other villains, but that's about it.
Yes, because in a battle shounen that's a necessary trope to drum up stakes and build tension.

>To want him to seek revenge and become a hero of Konoha while the truth of Itachi faded into the shadows completely.
By telling him to murder his best friend who was from Konoha? Remember the only reason Sasuke wasn't put on blacklist was because 1. nobody died on that arc which was very unlikely and 2. Tsunade, who Itachi didn't know would be Hokage, was a Naruto simp

There's no logical scenario in which Sasuke doesn't become a criminal. You know what Itachi could've done? Take that Chidori to the face and die on the spot.

>You missed the point. Sai wasn't meant to be the Sasuke replacement, he was meant to be a character, with an arc he goes through. Past that point, he just exists to help push people like Sakura into doing things they wouldn't normally do, as well as shed light on Danzo.
More like he was dropped right after, just like dozens of other things in the manga

>I'll give you that, mostly because that was the weakest arc of Part 2.
It's actually really good imo. I'm complaining that you can feel Kishi said "alright I'm done with this idea let's move on and almost never bring it up again"

>Yes, and Sage Mode is a legendary technique used by very few people and it has limited amount of use.
Sure, then why the fuck didn't he use the clone training in the timeskip, and why didn't he train to become a sage?

>Yes, because in a battle shounen that's a necessary trope to drum up stakes and build tension.
You don't need to do that just to raise stakes and build tension. He introduced a character that heavily pushed the idea of hard work > talent and then did nothing with it. Kishimoto is quite literally incapable of delivery.

>By telling him to murder his best friend who was from Konoha?
That doesn't impede Konoha's protection in any way. One person doesn't invalidate the safety of the village, and if you look at Itachi's interaction with Naruto where he shoves the bird down his throat, you can tell Itachi is surprised he cares so much about Sasuke, so he probably didn't think Sasuke's "best friend" would be all that important.
Also, Itachi is a sociopath.
>Remember the only reason Sasuke wasn't put on blacklist was because 1. nobody died on that arc which was very unlikely and 2. Tsunade, who Itachi didn't know would be Hokage
Itachi didn't expect Sasuke to defect to Orochimaru. He can't predict everything
>simp
Please go back.
>There's no logical scenario in which Sasuke doesn't become a criminal. You know what Itachi could've done? Take that Chidori to the face and die on the spot.
No, because that would be obvious. He also wants Sasuke to be strong.
>More like he was dropped right after, just like dozens of other things in the manga
Sai was still present for multiple following arcs and is the literal reason why Sakura attempts to kill Sasuke in Five Kage Summit.
>It's actually really good imo. I'm complaining that you can feel Kishi said "alright I'm done with this idea let's move on and almost never bring it up again"
It's really not that good. It's inconsistent with the other themes of Part 2, the training is the weakest in the series, Asuma's connection to his students is forced at best, and it's sandwiched between two far better arcs.
>Sure, then why the fuck didn't he use the clone training in the timeskip, and why didn't he train to become a sage?
Because the first one he didn't know about, and the second one he wasn't asked to partake in by a toad that would train him and yes it had to be a toad, since Jiraiya can't fully enter Sage Mode).

>You don't need to do that just to raise stakes and build tension
Yes you do, every story in the genre does this.
To show how strong a character is, you show him destroying another strong character.
>He introduced a character that heavily pushed the idea of hard work > talent and then did nothing with it.
Because that's not a core theme of Naruto. Naruto isn't about hard work, and Naruto isn't about Rock Lee.
Additionally, Rock Lee did have natural talent. You literally need natural talent to open the eight gates, this is stated in the arc.
>Kishimoto is quite literally incapable of delivery.
You're incapable of comprehending a narrative.

>That doesn't impede Konoha's protection in any way
That'd automatically make Sasuke a criminal, which was the opposite of Itachi's objective.

>No, because that would be obvious. He also wants Sasuke to be strong.
Lmao. More like "we need to make the story longer and have lots of powerups so Itachi can't try to accomplish his goals to die for Sasuke before said powerups happen"

Sasuke was already a genius, he'd grow strong as the years go by. It was way more dangerous for Sasuke to tell him to kill his best friend because then Sasuke would have to deal with people wanting his head.

>Sai was still present for multiple following arcs and is the literal reason why Sakura attempts to kill Sasuke in Five Kage Summit.
2 scenes in 40 volumes, big fucking deal

>Because the first one he didn't know about, and the second one he wasn't asked to partake in by a toad that would train him and yes it had to be a toad, since Jiraiya can't fully enter Sage Mode).
oh yeah how convenient, only Kakashi knows how the clones experience goes back to you, not the vastly more potent with clone Jiraiya (since he's got way more chakra than Kakashi and can spam them).

Actually forget about it, everyone should train with clones, even with only enough chakra to make one you double your results.

And Jiraiya could've taken Naruto to mount Myoboku anyday since he can summon the elders and have a prophecy to convince them if they don't want to. See? That's the kind of poor planning Kishi has. "I need Naruto to be weak at the beginning of part 2" "Now I need Naruto to fight Pain, how can I justify that?"

>That'd automatically make Sasuke a criminal, which was the opposite of Itachi's objective.
Not if he covers it up, like Itachi was able to do.
Additionally, it would make Sasuke a valuable asset who did it to kill the notorious Itachi Uchiha.
>Sasuke was already a genius, he'd grow strong as the years go by. It was way more dangerous for Sasuke to tell him to kill his best friend because then Sasuke would have to deal with people wanting his head.
Sasuke was still weak. Everyone knew it, he had been surpassed by Naruto at that point. Itachi didn't want him to be weak, so he could continue protecting Konoha.
>2 scenes in 40 volumes, big fucking deal
This is such a non-argument, you could say this about anything.
>oh yeah how convenient, only Kakashi knows how the clones experience goes back to you, not the vastly more potent with clone Jiraiya
Another factor with the clone training is that Naruto was constantly on the verge of releasing the nine tails, which is why Yamato was there.
Additionally, none of the training Jiraiya and Naruto did required clones.
>And Jiraiya could've taken Naruto to mount Myoboku anyday since he can summon the elders and have a prophecy to convince them if they don't want to.
First of all, that's not how it works. They're fucking frogs, they don't have to bend to Jiraiya's will, they choose who they train.
Secondly, the prophecy doesn't specify anybody, just that Jiraiya will train somebody that will bring great change. So, he's got Konan, Nagato, Yahiko, Minato and Naruto, as well as any future pupils, and he only knows one of those guys is dead.
I don't think that prophecy would be very convincing. Additionally, it's his prophecy, not Naruto's.

>Not if he covers it up, like Itachi was able to do.
>Additionally, it would make Sasuke a valuable asset who did it to kill the notorious Itachi Uchiha.
Oh yeah sure it makes sense. "Sasuke don't become evil and don't become a criminal please. but please kill your best friend which would make you a criminal, I just hope you can somehow hide it".

Oh, and Shisui killed himself. Naruto wouldn't let himself be killed without a fight, there was literally NO way for Sasuke to pull this off.

>Sasuke was still weak. Everyone knew it, he had been surpassed by Naruto at that point. Itachi didn't want him to be weak, so he could continue protecting Konoha.
Lmao better bet on Sasuke going the path of HATRED, killing his best friend from Konoha but somehow still being affiliated with Konoha and there to defend them.

It's fucking retarded, just stop.

>This is such a non-argument, you could say this about anything.
Not really, it's a supposedly "important" character being shoved in the background.

>Another factor with the clone training is that Naruto was constantly on the verge of releasing the nine tails, which is why Yamato was there.
Kyubi actually came out during the Jiraiya training because he felt like opening the seal and see what happened. How is making a few clones an issue compared to fucking opening the seal?

>Additionally, none of the training Jiraiya and Naruto did required clones.
Yes it did. Every kind of training is improved by clones.

>First of all, that's not how it works. They're fucking frogs, they don't have to bend to Jiraiya's will, they choose who they train.
They're also allies and close friends. Said frogs risked their lives in a fight to help Jiraiya. They would 100% train Naruto, and going "noooo they'd just refuse even though they NEVER did in the series" is delusional and proof of lack of critical mind

>Oh yeah sure it makes sense. "Sasuke don't become evil and don't become a criminal please. but please kill your best friend which would make you a criminal, I just hope you can somehow hide it".
He wants Sasuke to be strong and also wants to protect Konoha. It's made evident he prioritizes Sasuke over Konoha through multiple characters.
>Oh, and Shisui killed himself. Naruto wouldn't let himself be killed without a fight, there was literally NO way for Sasuke to pull this off.
It's not like Itachi knew who Sasuke's best friend was.
>Lmao better bet on Sasuke going the path of HATRED, killing his best friend from Konoha but somehow still being affiliated with Konoha and there to defend them.
Yes, and? Itachi literally says that sometimes it's your job to be hated.
>Not really, it's a supposedly "important" character being shoved in the background.
He's important when he needs to be important.
>Kyubi actually came out during the Jiraiya training because he felt like opening the seal and see what happened. How is making a few clones an issue compared to fucking opening the seal?
Because Jiraiya wanted to help Naruto control the power, and when he realized his mistake, he warned Kakashi who then got Yamato.
>Yes it did. Every kind of training is improved by clones.
And what training did Naruto and Jiraiya do that required them?
>They're also allies and close friends. Said frogs risked their lives in a fight to help Jiraiya. They would 100% train Naruto, and going "noooo they'd just refuse even though they NEVER did in the series" is delusional and proof of lack of critical mind
It's their choice mate.
Additionally, it's not like it fucking matters. It's also stated, directly that Naruto spent his time with Jiraiya chasing Sasuke instead of actually training, so why don't you consider that the next time you start talking.

>He wants Sasuke to be strong and also wants to protect Konoha. It's made evident he prioritizes Sasuke over Konoha through multiple characters.
"God I really hope Sasuke becomes strong at the age of 15 instead of 20 or so by having to kill his best friend, run away from his home village that I want to protect because they're bound to know, and most likely ally himself with shady assholes on his way. Sure seems worth it senpai, I don't care that it's 100% sure to destroy the poor kid, I want him to get that sick MS so he can become blind eventually, unless he finds a doctor and gets my eyes"

>Because Jiraiya wanted to help Naruto control the power, and when he realized his mistake, he warned Kakashi who then got Yamato.
Yes, which means making clones isn't an issue if he's willing to actually let the fox out.

>And what training did Naruto and Jiraiya do that required them?
Literally everything, whether it's taijutsu, chakra control or learning jutsus, clones improve your experience no matter what it is. Simple as that.

>Naruto spent his time with Jiraiya chasing Sasuke
Lmao no that's never stated. Find me the page, retard. No that it actually matters, since canonically they trained for those 3 years, so it makes 0 sense to not actually use efficient training that can be done in a fucking week due to how OP Naruto is

>the convenient timing of the then impressionable youth going through an edgy phase.
This.
Naruto would be seen as mediocre/bad nowadays. Back in the day emos were all the rage and music groups like linkin park were on every kid's ipod/mp3.

>"God I really hope Sasuke becomes strong at the age of 15 instead of 20 or so by having to kill his best friend, run away from his home village that I want to protect because they're bound to know, and most likely ally himself with shady assholes on his way.
Remember when Itachi called Sasuke a blank slate and that his path had yet to forged.
>I don't care that it's 100% sure to destroy the poor kid, I want him to get that sick MS so he can become blind eventually, unless he finds a doctor and gets my eyes"
That was also literally a part of the plan. That's why he tells Sasuke about the Eternal Mangekyo even though he's dying.
>Yes, which means making clones isn't an issue if he's willing to actually let the fox out.
The issue is because he attempted that Naruto became worse with controlling the fox making it harder to exert chakra leading to Yamato being necessary for any clone training.
>Lmao no that's never stated. Find me the page, retard. No that it actually matters, since canonically they trained for those 3 years, so it makes 0 sense to not actually use efficient training that can be done in a fucking week due to how OP Naruto is
Sasuke literally states it, and Naruto doesn't say he's wrong. It's the in universe explanation for why Naruto didn't get all that stronger over the course of 3 years.
Just go to their confrontation at the end of Tenchi Bridge.