Can someone explain how this works exactly? I was under the impression that in the Holy Grail War all seven classes would be summoned with no repeating classes. Only one saber, one archer, etc.
How would this have worked if someone else had already summoned a Berserker? What would have happened if Kariya didn't add the extra lines to the incantation? Saber Lancelot? Or would he have been summoned as Berserker but without Mad Enhancement active?
What the fuck would have happened if he had summoned Saber Lancelot anyway? Would he have just killed Zouken and freed Sakura?
I feel like he knew Zouken wasn't that easy to kill
It's slots filled. He'd be able to summon Saberlot if Kiritsugu didn't summon Arturia
I guess. Saber Lancelot doesn't seem like somebody who would care though.
What about the altered incantation though? Wouldn't it still be Berserker regardless of the words said if it's a slots filled system?
You get berserker by using the madness enhance incantation. That's the whole point.
So even if every other class has been summoned, you still need the specific incantation for Berserker? The grail won't automatically fill the Berserker slot?
I guess is more to be sure you will get Berserker, or maybe he meant making him go berserk from the beginning as it gives him a big buff
>more to be sure you will get Berserker,
No, you summon Berserker by forcing them to be in that class with the modified chant. That's it. I don't know why you guys are making this so complicated. This is Fuyuki grail war, back when the rules are still pretty simple and straightforward.
I know, Fuyuki rules are sime but I'm trying to reconcile "These seven classes will all be summoned" and "You have to force a servant to be berserker" what happens if you don't? What clazs is that last servant if you don't force him to be berserker?
I have this question as well.
>What class is that last servant if you don't force him to be berserker?
I guess he could be something like Shielder or Gunner.
The Fuyuki grail wars are rigged by the main three family anyway. Only the 3 main families know about the pratfall and can actively gain leverage on it.
>invite outsider
>tell them about zerker class upsides
>don't tell them about the ridiculous mana cost
>let the outsider self destruct
Again, the whole point of the fuyuki grail war was that it's only for the 3 main families, the other 4 participants are fillers/sacrifices.
Not a thing in the Fuyuki grail.
I wonder. And that's not even getting into the fact that both Fuyuki Berserkers are heroes who qualify for the class since they went mad and both times they were summoned with the intent to make them Berserkers.
Makes me wonder if we would have gotten Saber Heracles or something if Illya didn't do it the way she did. Same with Lancelot.
It will auto assign them Berserker if the servant is compatible or summon a random Berserker who fits you. Most masters who know their shit will avoid Berserks at all costs since the mana cost will kill you.
Yeah, I see that, but both times it's one of the three families using that class.
if berserker is already taken then he would've just got something out of the remaining classes
there can only be one of each class in the war (barring stuff like Assassin and True Assassin), so the Matou's just used an alteration to try and get it in the hopes that it hadn't already been summoned
I see, thanks. That answers the question I had.
The Einzberns were just being retards while Zouken outright wanted to torture Kariya since he had no intention of the Matous winning the 4th grail war.
Because in FZ Zouken was deliberately fucking with Kariya and in FSN Illya is a mana battery so they don't need to care much about mana consumption. And after getting fucked by Kiritsugu, they now decide they'd rather something they have full control over, hence a mindless berserker.
Makes sense. Also makes it lucky that some rando didn't ever summon a berserker like that serial killer in Zero, not being able to control it or letting it go on a rampage in public.
If I recall normally that wouldn't be an issue since the grail isn't supposed to summon "evil" heroes.
I guess that means the uncorrupted grail didn't consider heroes who went mad to be evil if the berserker class existed since the beginning.
On an unrelated note, would Waver have been shit out of luck if he didn't get the command seals? Cause he stole Kayneth's catalyst before he had them.
Would he have been able to summon Iskandar with the ritual and cloth anyway, but just not tether him to the world and supply hin with mana?
Yeah, if the grail hadn't chosen to give Waver command seals he wouldn't be able to summon anyone. Summoning a legit heroic spirit was stated to be an impossible feat for even the top mages so the grail does most of the heavy lifting for everyone.
>legit heroic spirit
Is that what those new Grand Servants are?
Yes, Zouken hates Kariya and didn't really think he could win the Grail. Also he didn't care much because he already had his original plan of breeding Sakura to get a powerful mage or if that didn't work, have the shadow get it for him anyway.
Zouken made him choose Berserker so the servant could have the best stats to win the Grail, Berserker also had no means to hurt Zouken unlike a servant like Caster AND it was guaranteed that the extra mana drain would be sure to give Kariya the biggest amount of pain possible. In a way it was a very well crafted plan ot maximize Kariya's suffering and chances at victory.
Also in the off chance Kariya won the Grail, he would be too weak and Zouken could just swoop in and kill him without resistance. Then breed Sakura anyway. I doubt he ever intended to fullfill his end of the bargain.
I think the best chance for Kariya would have been a Caster with medical skills. It could find a way to kill the worm that is Zouken without hurting Sakura and provide the least amount of mana consumption. Just get Medea and have her rape the city to get enough mana, then start killing everyone. Basically play defensively.
>Berserker also had no means to hurt Zouken unlike a servant like Caster
Care to elaborate on that on?
The Einzberns got traumatized from being so close to winning and then (according to the news they got) the master went crazy and betrayed them with the servant blowing up the Grail.
They're already insane from all that inbreeding and cloning so that was too much. That's why they stop trusting anyone and send Illya instead, so she only obeys their will and can't be killed by the other masters since she's needed for the ritual. Then have her summon Berserker so the servan't can't betray them either. It was the optimal strategy they could find with the goal of having an ultra loyal master with an even more loyal and stats buffed servant.
Zouken only wanted to torture Kariya. See
Have we reached the conclusion that random servants can be summoned in the Fuyuki war? I was pretty sure you had to have a catalyst
Lancelot got a fucking sword, which is useless against a pile of worms. Same with Heracles, they can't harm Zouken's physical body, even less so his spiritual core. If they for some reason knew where Zouken was hiding (Sakura's heart), they would have to impale her to get rid of the worm, which was directly against Kariya's goal in the first place.
Compare to Medea who may be like Kirei but better. Maybe she has some ritual to extract the worms from Sakura's body using spatial warp magic or something to purge them. Zouken would be screwed if Kariya could convince her to help him. The problem there is that Medea is a cold hearted bitch who would probably not care at all about anything but the Grail and may leave Kariya for a better master/turn him into a puppet.
They can but most masters want a specific servant so they use a catalyst. If I remember the only rule that Fuyuki has is a western only hero rule and that the assassin slot must have a Hassan which I don't think require catalysts.
Wasn't something stated in stay might that without a catalyst a random servant would be chosen. Emiya being summoned was chalked up to this I think, before the reveal of the amulet.
Now that I think of it, did Rin even have a catalyst?
No, the catalyst is just to help you in the ritual. It gives you a better chance at getting a strong servant or if the catalyst belongs to a specific hero, summon it instead.
Without a catalyst, you still get a servant but the grail chooses the one you got the highest compatibility with. That's why in Fate/Zero ryuunosuke who is a serial killer and has no catalyst summons Bluebeard and they become best friends. But Zero Caster is rather weak compared to Medea and more of a one trick pony.
Compare to Kiritsugu (or Tokiomi) who uses the catalyst to get one of the most powerful servants but the servant hates their guts and in one case betrays them.
She didn't but she thought the amount of mana stored in the amulet and the proper time and place elements would be enough to get Saber. Not a great plan