Kleros Historic Court Case 302 highlights that the system is largely broken:
>Selected Jurors are Publicly viewable before they cast their vote >Votes are public and displayed as casted >Team members account for much of the jurors (currently 80 votes out of 180~) >Minority voters lose their stake
This means that not only does the team control a large number of the votes, everyone knows how they vote and there is a huge incentive for other jurors to just "trust the authorities" and vote with the team in order to maximize their chances of voting with majority so they earn their wage and don't lose their PNK stake.
Parties can also reach out to jurors to bribe or threaten them. This is a serious possibility if Kleros were ever to take on some high profile case.
There's nothing decentralized about Kleros Court. The basic principals of how a jury should operate aren't upheld.
I know about Aragon Court, but I heard their platform is pretty shitty too. Is there any legitimate alternative to PNK out there?
Yeah this case proves how useless PNK is in its current iteration. It is actually worse than useless because it promotes mob rule with its incentives, not justice.
Daniel Rogers
And this was the response from the team.
At this point, the address with 83 votes has voted NO, which swayed the outcome thus far into the voting from YES to NO. Regardless of what the correct answer is, the ability of the team to do this with their whale stacks is bullshit.
a community vote can easily make votes hidden until the votes pass. someone just needs to propose it. i know who that person is, and they bought the pnk stack with their own money. bigger whales than the team exist.
Camden Cook
But for people who are interested in decentralized courts, instead of Kleros' attempt, it's better to just find a better alternative instead of trying to fix a broken product
>just make something new instead of fixing something that easily be fixed with a community vote ok, you realise revolutionizing justice and providing a soft oracle solution takes about 5-10 years to do? yeah, and i'm saying that there are bigger whales out there than this team member.
Zachary Rodriguez
Losing your stake if you vote the wrong way is probably the dumbest fucking rule. why the fuck would they ever implement that? it opens the protocol up to coercion, bribery and voting just to get your tokens (regardless of right or wrong) and other shit as you mentioned
Lincoln Walker
>why the fuck would they ever implement that? i could make a bot that votes "yes" on every case and i'd profit since i have nothing to lose.
Bentley Wright
Imagine thinking that Kleros is the only team in the world that has started trying to make a blockchain-based court
And there's no solution to fix a centralized team controlling enough of the supply to sway any court preceding
Josiah Rodriguez
they're the team which has come closest, which is why you've made this thread knowing of only one other alternative which is miles shittier
Evan Baker
Right now you can make a bot that just votes with the majority and you'd profit since you have nothing to lose
Gabriel Roberts
if you vote wrong the case can be appealed and you'd lose more in the appeal than you would otherwise, so no, you wouldn't profit
Levi Long
There are definitely bigger whales that aren't team members. The owners of those accounts don't give a fuck about whatever Kleros' behind the scenes agenda is. They want to vote coherently and not out a shit stain on their investment.
Cameron Bell
Case 302 cannot be appealed.
Levi Phillips
what if you have a legitimate dissenting opinion? aren't supreme court cases like 5-4 all the time?
Gabriel Gray
why are you assuming kleros have some kind of agenda? this might not be a massive conspiracy like you're implying it is, but rather just what that team member genuinely thinks. the pnk team own like 20% or something of active tokens which is a drop in the pool. case 302 has gone to kleros because it was already appealed the max amount of times on realitio. this case is about 1 in 100, so i don't see how a bot would make it profitable. what i DO see a good proposition for is that juror's votes should be hidden on non-appealable cases. which again, like i said, can be done easily through a community vote. i'm not sure i understand, if you have a legitimately dissenting opinion you can appeal the case.
Grayson Gray
>no actually won Lol glad I didn't buy this worthless useless shitcoin. Back to 0 you go.
Jason Thompson
>i'm not sure i understand, if you have a legitimately dissenting opinion you can appeal the case. not all civil cases in the United States are unanimous by jurors. only criminal cases have to be unanimous. for example, in civil cases before the US Supreme court, 5 judges often vote one way, and 4 vote the other way. it doesn't mean the 4 were wrong, they just saw a difficult case a different way. those 4 people would lose their money in Kleros, right?
Justin Flores
they lose a fraction of their pnk stake which was drawn for the case (like 5% or something). but my point rather is that the ultimately "true" opinion as resolved by the crowd, which is usually infinitely appealable, will be found.
Isaiah Morales
No they don't lose their PNK they just give it back to the team that controls the majority :)
Adrian Jones
if no wins i'm going to freak the fuck out
Austin Gray
>that controls the majority :) false :) bigger whales control split wallets that amount to more than the team own. btw, this is a lose-lose because the FUD argument is either "the team control the court" or "the whales control the court". the truth is that the courts can't be sybil attacked.
John Evans
Oh, so the handful of accounts that dominate majority in any case aren't all team members. Quite decentralized!
Alexander Thompson
I will be exiting my position in PNK if NO wins. I may be exiting anyway because there is too much bullshit that has come up lately. Yes, I know, no one cares.
Alexander Morales
good thing every case except realitio ones are infinitely appealable! (You)
Christian Ward
>niggas legit thought this was about justice this is literally for pajeets to settle their paypal scams w/o having to go through annoying and timely tickets.
Xavier Sanchez
I've just realized everyone in this thread is fudding because they voted yes and are now seething. Chins up pals, you only lose about 5% of the pnk that was drawn for the case (so you'd lose about 70PNK per slot you had). If you're selling, I'd recommend doing so now by unstaking your PNK and going straight to Uniswap. Thanks for taking part :)
Jordan Mitchell
I don't hold any PNK- never have. I wanted to see how this case played out then get in on being a juror.
Now it's clear that Kleros is /useless/ I want to see if anything else out there is worth my coin and participation
Anyways I have 7 posts from this id now if I was same fagging I wouldn't be doing that??
>Now it's clear that Kleros is /useless/ Colin Rule, Vitalik and Jean Tirole would disagree with you there pal. I'd recommend buying Aragon.
Gabriel Richardson
>one single case out of 302 went bad >NOOOOOOOOO ITS BROKEN!!! just appeal that shit nigger lol
Jack White
Oh yeah, Vitalik has a phenomenal pulse on vetting which projects are worthwhile.
Elijah Martinez
There are 2 other names in my post you forgot to address
Kayden Richardson
Fudders everywhere. They appear after selling haahahahaha. Catch pnk at $1
Alexander Ramirez
Why did they make votes visible before deadline I feel like that ruins everything
Jayden Cooper
newfags unironically have no idea how retarded vitalik is when it comes to this shit. he's too autistic to understand human behavior desu.
Kevin Barnes
I see nothing that connects Jean Tirole to Kleros, and the only link Colin Rule has is they paid him to give a speech.
Did you know Steve Wozniak gave a keynote presentation on behalf of BlockVentures? Probably not, it was a straight exit scam that raised 70mm then fucked off to Guadalajara
Jackson Hernandez
>I see nothing that connects Jean Tirole to Kleros Academic paper due to be published in September. I'll make an Omen bet on it if you'd like. >the only link Colin Rule has is they paid him to give a speech. kek he's been involved with Kleros since 2018. look up his talks with the team back then. epic fudding though. enjoy buying PNK at 60c.
Oliver Ross
I've mentioned it in other threads, but to me this case just goes to show how broken kleros is. it's taken weeks, and tens of thousands of dollars....and it's still going on? imagine having a smart contract that you wanted to get data into.... >were there over 1000 cases of covid reported in the US on any day in the first week of july thats a simple yes or no question. google it. the fact that it costs this much and takes this long for kleros to get that data...fucking yikes.
foresaw something like this happening, just pulled out all my pnk.
made a profit at least.
Levi Hill
>it's taken weeks it's been on kleros for 4 days. >thats a simple yes or no question. google it. the fact that it costs this much and takes this long for kleros to get that data...fucking yikes. you'd make a court and specify the conditions (which would cost you about $3-10, depending on which one) and be resolved in 1-3 days depending on your conditions. the market didn't specify that, which is a problem with omen, imo.
more to the point, the reason kleros is being used is because this is a subjective market, otherwise you'd be using chainlink. if it's that "simple", why do so many people disagree with you?
