If you do evil out of hatred for evil, that rage and hate will merely birth new conflict. user, I don't know what betrayed you and caused you to fall into such despair in the past. But that rage and sorrow are found only in those who once sought justice. user, in youth, deep down, you must've wanted to become a hero. You believed in a hero to save the world. You desired it more than anyone. Am I wrong?
If you do evil out of hatred for evil, that rage and hate will merely birth new conflict. user...
Brody Parker
Ian Allen
The heros not you, lol. Go back to jobbing
Austin Jenkins
Zero is a trashfire.
Saber is supposed to be Kiritsugu-lite, not some bleeding heart moralfag Urobuchi turned her into.
William Rodriguez
Isn’t this the same bitch who raided her own counties villages for supplies during war?
Ian Stewart
>Saber is supposed to be Kiritsugu-lite
No, she isn't
William Ramirez
Her solution is almost exactly what Kiritsugu does.
Sacrifice the less for the good of the many.
Isaiah Turner
This has nothing to do with anything. Saber never criticizes utilitarianism in Fate/Zero. She's willing to kill the competition and win the grail just like everyone else. What she considers evil are Kiritsugu's backstabbing methods and nihilistic persona. She doesn't want to damage people unrelated to the war who can be saved by normal methods, and she doesn't want to betray Lancer's heroism. Original Saber does the exact same shit. She refuses to use the normal people from the city as mana dispensers to win the war, and acts indignated when Zouken taints Medea's corps and when Assassin defeats her by using the shadow instead of fighting directly. She's literally described as one of the most pure heroic spirits
Justin Rivera
Saber refuses to kill civilians for mana because it would go against her knight's code, and she nearly gives her name to Assassin because he gives his name to her. Saber always had a pure, honorable side, and the VN never really tried very hard to reconcile it with the ruthless aspects of her backstory. At least Urobochi's Saber has the virtue of being consistently characterized.
Gabriel Rogers
>If you do evil out of hatred for evil, that rage and hate will merely birth new conflict.
I sincerely hope nobody here actually thinks something so stupid.
Michael Morgan
As a king, that's a slightly different situation though. A king is responsible for his subjects, which means that he is also in a position to sacrifice them if truly necessary. Kiritsugu has no fucking business deciding the fate of others.
Daniel Campbell
is this why you were reduced to a crying wreck when Iskandar showed you your place?
at least you made glorious Goldie ROFL
Jaxson Lewis
Except it shows she's not a moral fag. She willingly raids and burns down her own villages so that the enemy can't use the supplies.
How the FUCK do you believe that's moral?
It's exactly what Emiya does. There is no difference.
Ryder Garcia
What are some other fate: redpills?
Brayden Baker
>consistently characterized
You mean one-dimensional? It's very clear that VN Saber didn't go after civilians because she had hang ups of her past doings. Zero Saber is such a pure saint she couldn't even comprehend Kiritsugu's actions beyond being villainous. He's her ally, it would do good to have a more nuanced discussion relating to what she had to do in the past.
Gavin Murphy
That's just your own opinion. Not what Saber thinks. Kiritsugu literally criticizes this in the same scene, telling her how heroic spirits like her are hypocrites who send their people to die in the name of ideals while pretending they're any different from him. As a king, sacrificing her own subjects causes Saber a lot of guilt and regret too, she just did it because there was no choice and it was a common practice. This whole "Saber was meant to be a sociopath!" discourse is retarded
Elijah Young
>She willingly raids and burns down her own villages so that the enemy can't use the supplies.
Scorched earth is a pretty wide spread tactic, user. Would it be more moral to feed the enemy supplies to cause your people even more harm? Don't you see that this is different from
>I agreed not to hurt you, but my assistant didn't, get shot
?
Thomas Mitchell
She moralfags with the knight code multiple times in Fate/Stay Night though, the majority of Saber's ideological characterization in /Stay Night if anything has her moralfagging.
From being completely unwilling to take innocent lives to remain alive in the Holy Grail War, to her honor code flat out making her try to reveal her identity to an enemy servant just because he told her his own name,
Those are all very key ways that made her incompatible with Kiritusgu in Zero, and it's why Urobuchi and Nasu rolled with that prevailing characterization of her. If necessary Kiritsugu would have been completely for her sucking mana out of the innocent, and he would have been enraged if Saber revealed her identity to every prying eye just because her opponent revealed his (similar to his rage when she lets Diarmuid save Kayneth).
Hell we see this same exact dynamic play out between Archer and Saber, with Archer easily poking at Saber for her idealism. She shows during any ideological clash she has with Archer that she is staunchly opposed to cynical approaches to war, which is what Kiritsugu is all about, even moreso than Archer.
If Arturia's scorched earth tactics in war is contradictory, then it's also contradictory to the original visual novel. But if anything I feel like Zero handles this "contradiction" well by having Kiritsugu call Saber out as being a hypocrite.
Noah Evans
You're not wrong my dear Saber
Although it's so difficult to stay loyal to those beautiful ideals in this hellhole of a world
But you remind me why its right path and we're not wrong in our struggle to achieve it
Thank you for staying loyal to your convictions as I will try to do the same just because I want to see you smile
Brayden Lewis
This. Saber does only what is absolutely necessary, Kiritsugu takes it even further and eliminates any possibility of an upset to his plan, no matter how minuscule and with no regards to tact.
Kayneth and his broad were completely out of the war. No command spells, Kayneth has no magic he could even use anymore and was a cripple, the chances of Kayneth and Sola-Ui doing anything were exceedingly small... But Kiritsugu has the opportunity to eliminate that possibility so he does. And he's not even willing to spare an extra bullet by telling Maiya to put Kayneth out of his misery as he's bleeding out, instead Saber has to do it.
That's the kind of thing that enrages Saber, the absolute lack of tact in Kiritsugu's methods.
Breaking the agreement to follow the church's orders and go after Caster and stop his torture of innocent children, because he'd rather pick off the teams that are focused with defeating Caster. Breaking the spirit of his agreement with Kayneth to eliminate the crippled, magicless mage and his wife completely. In Fate/Stay Night this kind of thing would have pissed her off as well.
>He's her ally, it would do good to have a more nuanced discussion relating to what she had to do in the past.
They didn't have a more nuanced discussion because Kiritsugu literally wasn't even willing to speak to her. Even in the OP scene where they're clashing, Kiritsugu won't even give Saber the respect of looking at her and speaking to her directly, he just talks to Irisviel to indirectly respond to everything Saber is saying because he sees no use in actually conversating with Saber when his methods of achieving victory are so starkly opposed to her code of honor.
That was his concern with summoning King Arthur in the first place and why he sticks to not uttering a single word to her outside of the three command spells.
Thomas Jones
Conflict is inevitable, that whole "muh cycle of violence" shit is not a relevant point.
Thomas Long
>user, in youth, deep down, you must've wanted to become a hero. You believed in a hero to save the world. You desired it more than anyone. Am I wrong?
Nah, I just want to be a hero to kiss pretty girls.
Leo Richardson
>Highschool Philosophy for Dummies 101
Parker Thompson
But why. This isn't even meant to be philosophical, she's just trying to insult Kiritsugu by saying "Who hurt you?".
Nathan Mitchell
No, Saber
I did not fall into despair
I believe in those ideals as strongly as ever
I believe in you and your convictions, loyalty and purity of heart
You're my shining light in all this darkness
Unyielding strength to oppose injustice
I will not fail
I love you Saber
Tyler Thomas
Yeah, this scene was the first and only time she ever got to see any emotion in Kiritsugu, so she said that just because she was feeling pity for him.
Camden Ross
*blocks your path*
Jaxson Brooks
>They didn't have a more nuanced discussion because Kiritsugu literally wasn't even willing to speak to her.
I'm not saying that should have happened, but her arguments should have amounted to more that "lol ur evil". Urobuchi basically whitewashed her to bounce off of other characters easier. You'd never guess that Saber was the type of person to sacrifice he own villages for the greater good from Zero alone. Which leads to this shit where Rider's arguments were "You were too much of a saint" when she damn well knew her people saw her as anything but.
Brayden Baker
I KNEEL
Aiden Sanders
Kiritsugu had a hard life. Really hard.
It's of no surprise he's got his principals misguided.
He's got that childish naivety combined with ruthless utilitarianism but it stems from a good heart.
He believes that after all this terrible things he's done there will be no further misfortune
He's doing it believing it's better to be him and not anyone else.
He's deceiving himself with that crying face of his.
Chase Thomas
Says the king that has had everything handed to her because she was fated to become a king and had a collection of unimaginably loyal and competent retainers that would die ten times for you. Your true colours showed when you were proven to be someone that's absolutely incapable of understanding your own followers, their wants and needs.
Jaxson Cooper
>I'm not saying that should have happened, but her arguments should have amounted to more that "lol ur evil".
That's not what her arguments amounted to though.
Her defense of honor codes is that if there are no rules to war then each and every war will cause hell on earth, and in that defense she's not even wrong, there are reason why we have the Geneva Convention and why certain things are considered war crimes when used in conflict.
Kiritsugu is the one who has a weak counter to that in saying "War is hell so there is no reason to abide by rules!". He's only theoretically correct under the assumption that the Holy Grail can truly grant his wish, but realistically his ideology falls apart when you realize it only works if he's the sole actor breaking the rules.
If everyone acts as he does then hell truly is unleashed onto earth. Saber unwittingly wins this argument once the true nature of the Holy Grail is unveiled.
I don't know how you keep boiling Rider's arguments down to "u were too much of a goody-goody lol". Forget reading the Light Novel, did you even watch the anime? That's not what he was saying AT ALL.
Rider would have clashed with what you interpret to be /Stay Night's Saber all the same, and she would have gotten verbally BTFO in that too because what he's criticizing is at the heart of her character in the Fate route.
He recognizes that Saber is only king not because she has any desire for power or to lead, but because she just sees it as her duty. She is a little girl forced into the role of king because she was the only one who could pull out the sword in the stone. She selflessly took up the duty and lived for her people. The King does not serve the people to Rider, the people serve the king.
It's not about being a "good guy" or a "bad guy", I don't get how you think King Arthur using scorched earth at all changes the dynamic between Rider and Saber.
Connor Myers
>why we have the Geneva Convention
A convention that no one actually follows and things that violate it are routinely used.
>things are considered war crimes when used in conflict.
For which only the losers are tried.
>"War is hell so there is no reason to abide by rules!"
That's not what he says, he mocks her for claiming that war is anything but hell, which is absolutely correct because when push comes to shove no one follows those fucking rules and codes, Saber can only afford to be so merciful and righteous because she's a fucking legendary hero with a magical sword, not a human being that can die from an infection.
Ayden Clark
The evil men do to you only harms your soul if you do evil in return.
The noblest form of retribution is to not become like your enemy.
Brody Jenkins
>If your enemies kill you, they win