Just beat Final Fantasy 7 for the first time...

it's amazing for such an old game there's so many moment where you're like "that's awesome how they did that"
the set pieces
walking around while the camera moves with dynamic video backgrounds.
looking at sephiroths stats and materia.

>is FF7R worth it when it drops for PC
fuck no it's trash that ruines everything good about FF7. maybe worth a pirate when mods fix it up a bit.

Yeah it is pretty good

but since you are asking that question, you honestly sound like a faggot so no, dont play it, it is not for you

retard

that's not what happened. the ending is deliberately left open to interpretation so sequels could be made.
but even if everyone in midgar died which i'm pretty sure didn't happen. clouds gang on the air ship would have been fine as red 13 is there too.
Obviously everyone survived and 500 years later humans left midgar and it turned into a forest.

autistic nomura faggot spotted.

I will agree, the set pieces and small details were awesome! Honestly, playing through it made me want to play Digimon World. The set pieces were very similar. Seeing the sets move with the background essentially swapped over to FMV while you can move was really neat.
I'm not going to to completely write off 7R yet. A reimagining could be good. It doesn't diminish from the original, it will always be there. But from the sounds of it, they're going to play it safe with the next portions.

No, no. I didn't take it as everyone dying. I was specifically pointing out that after fighting tooth and nail, Cloud comes up and has basically no resolve left after coming out on top. But then he has another break, he rescues Tifa, verbally wishes to see Aerith in front of Tifa, then they all make it out. The FMVs were super impressive when considering the period. But back to the point, I'm sure they all got out, Red's obviously fine. I just felt like it was too open ended.

>Cloud was a LARPer who lost himself in the role.
Incorrect, he was even cooler when his true personality came out.

Uhhhh, no that wasn't the message at all. Did you even play the game?

90% of the remake is a masterpiece. The rest (ending and some filler chapters), depends on your tastes. But I liked them and will keep an open mind for the rest of the parts (if I dont kill myself first)

Cloud was edgy in the 2kewl4u way a character like sonic acts like.

This was a stem of his personality being melded by zack and overcompensating it to the nth degree. He's not just confident, he's a fuckin super star and you're not worth his time. He's not just a little witty with depreciating humor, everything he says has to be aloof and edgy. He IS a try hard because he's an empty shell projecting as hard as he can. He's in denial and confused and doesn't sort that shit out until he falls in the lifestream with tifa. By that point he's developed relationships with the rest of the crew and takes all the lessons he's learned from them and zack to make himself a proper personality. This is why AC cloud is such a kick in the dick.

Remake cloud is almost the opposite. He's insulated, autistic, can't even talk to people. It's not that he doesn't want to, he literally can't come up with a response.This is because zack isn't with him in the remake, future sephiroth is. Cloud reverts back to his autistic childhood self, biggs even mentions how much of a kid he's like. The few times genuine malice comes out of cloud like trying to kill reno and johnny are sephiroth's influence.

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He looks and acts like a faggot.

I am seeing a disturbing amount of people recently who think that humanity was definitively wiped out in the end. At the very least it is open to interpretation, and I'm aware Kitase seemed to imply in one interview that he believed humanity was gone by Red's post-credit scene, but I find it impossible to believe that the game would take our characters, who struggled through so much and already have dealt with so much death, and wipe them out as well, destroying the narrative weight of their accomplishements. The laughter of human children at the end as the screen fades to black says it all, and it does it subtly, but seems to me too many people confuse the ending because they don't pick up on that or have just forgotten.
Really, after Aeris and Red XIII, both surrogates for "muh nature," find our characters at least worthy of friendship and protection, the planet kills them and all of humanity? By what logic then us planet any better than Sephiroth who, after all, only has a problem with humanity for betraying the Cetra?
All our characters struggles and accomplishments to protect what matters to them, Marlene, Shera, Ester, Priscilla, Elmyra, and the countless other innocents, not to mention the memories of everyone lost like Zack, all of that is deemed not worthy of saving by the planet. Humanity needs to die. It is irredeemable, the planet, the great moral arbiter, deems it so.

I for one refuse to believe something so nihilistic. Fuck spinoffs or even the fucking devs. This is art and I get to choose what I take from it. I choose hope, and if the children's laughter at the end isn't reason to do so then I don't know what is.

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I think it's even more likely humanity survived considering the conversation about the White Materia and Holy. One of the characters goes on about Aerith's prayer to the planet - or materia or lifestream - was a plea to spare humanity. At least, I think that's what I read. But then there's the chaotic aspect of the planet's will. In any case, I'm with you on the ending not being completely bleak.

A running theme is death isn't the end necessarily. You become one with the lifestream and reincarnated. Sometimes games have sad, unfair endings. Like terranigma.

Do I believe they died? All we can say for sure is everybody abandoned the fuck out midgar, but AC retcons even that. I'd say there are humans still out there around the globe. We're survivors. The ambiguity comes from what the fuck happened to midgar. Was everybody there killed? Does it matter?

What do you mean argue over it? Like if it was Sephiroth or Jenova? Their goals are the same so it’s irrelevant.

It feels like they’re the same thing though.
Cloud is actively trying to come off as aloof and edgy in remake, but that’s the only context he understands how to act in because he’s got fucking mental issues.
Being autistic in most social situations makes sense since he literally has no idea what a cool SOLDIER man would do in those situations
Ironically, I think that’s what I like about Roche: I can imagine EXACTLY how he’d respond in normal social situations that Cloud finds himself in

What if humanity got reincarnated on Red XIII's puppers?

The epilogue shows Nanaki and a bunch of little nanaki’s running around. Obviously humans survived if they did. Then it shows a run down Midgar. I always took that as humanity stopped Mako generation and moved out of Midgar because it was a plague to the planet, also it was obliterated by meteor.

Good man.

If death doesn't matter, why should be be sad Aeris or Zack died? I get your point, having influence after death is a key concept, but the original FF7 did not have Advent Children's "no one's ever really gone" shtick. Cloud said it all: Aeris will no longer laugh, or cry, or get angry. That kind of life is over for her. It was a sacrifice, not just some state transfer that doesn't really matter one way or another.

Sure, you return to the lifestream when you die and your existence is sort of perpetuated in a cosmic sort of way. But if it was all the same either way, then all the sacrifices and death would mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, which I think goes against the core concept of the game. It's not about the game being "fair" or it being what I want to happen, it would be that the ending of humanity being wiped out would directly undo much of the narrative purpose of the story. No way around it. I give 1997 Square credit enough to not do that.

Yes this is clearly what was intended, further confirmed by the laughter of children right at the end.
See: youtu.be/J2srKV5WTRk?t=70

Only problem was they left things ambiguous enough so that brainlets to this day actually believe there is an implication that humanity was wiped out because... it was ruled by the planet that humans are irredeemably toxic? Really, after our heroes struggled the whole game to protect it... AND WON?
Would be incredibly dumb for that to be what happened, but you see people thinking it all over the place, sadly.

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Mostly the "Cloud killed Aerith" and "well actually, we never really saw who stabbed her." Recently I saw someone claiming Cloud drowned her instead of saving her. In any case, I assume all of it is prehistoric shitposting, but I've been surprised by dumber things in the past.

Does anyone know what the consensus is in the country that matter? JP Since sales domesticall are way more important for companies like SE and Sony.

Right, because he's lost on his own.

Zack was basically babysitting him the whole time in the original until the lifestream. It was like he had a big brother that he idolized whispering in his ear on how to act and he would just blow it out of proportion. Still autistic and unnatural, which was the point, but in a different way than he is in the remake. Since you want to use roche as an example(how in the fuck is he a 3C btw when you fight shitter 3C in the late game that have nothing on him) zack cloud would've done his hardest to try and outstyle roche and probably spectacularly fail or ruin something because of it. Remake cloud is just putting up with his shit and trying to get "the job" done because that's all he can think about. For this cloud that's all there is. For old cloud he was too good for this shit but he did it for his waifus.

Since you beat the original you might find the remake interesting, I know I sure did. Not a fan of the big changes, but its an interesting point of comparison.

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To be fair the planet protected itself.

The heroes fucked up and lost and only ended up succeeding in removing sephiroth. IF you can credit any of them it would've been aerith, a cetra. Also I don't think the planet has that acute of an awareness anyway otherwise it wouldn't have let shit get so bad in the first place. Not saying humanity is dead but the planet wouldn't give two fucks.

got a 39/10 by famitsu

>argue over Sephiroth killing Aeris
what's there to argue about? He kills her, end of rine

>a disturbing amount of people
it's just one autist

Cloud was literally always a faggot. Zack was the Chad he always wanted to be.

Cloud is the coolest.

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The planet seems to run on autopilot with some shitty contingency plans. The weapons were pretty neat, but turned out to be worthless, at least with regards to Sephiroth. Going through some of the extended lore the other weapons from DoC sound pretty cool, but they'd have been useless as well, I'm guessing. Doubt they'd have survived Meteor.
Speaking of, was Meteor another Jenova, or one of her race?

You only think that because he's pretending that he's Zack.

Zack was the Chad he wanted to be, but by the end Cloud became the bigger Chad.

>bigger Chad
Not a chance.

>He's not just confident, he's a fuckin super star and you're not worth his time. He's not just a little witty with depreciating humor, everything he says has to be aloof and edgy. He IS a try hard because he's an empty shell projecting as hard as he can.
Sounds like Zig Forums desu senpai

Sure, but I'm talking narrative here. I agree the planet could decide humans weren't worth the trouble after all that's happened and nuke em with Holy, Sephiroth after all is one himself and his will proved even more powerful and dangerous than Jenova. The question is whether it makes sense in a writing sense for the planet to commit a worse genocide than anyone in history when we know many of those people are innocent or actively good, and making humanity redeemable has been the literal arc of our characters throughout the game. Hard to imagine imo.

And you say they fucked up, but it was because of our heroes actions throughout the game that Aeris was even in a position to bring the lifestream into action to protect the planet. If nothing else, I cannot believe Aeris would do anything would kill Marlene, the embodiment of innocence, which I believe is why she is so prominently shown off in the ending FMV.

I have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that people think that humanity being wiped out does anything besides contradict the point of the game and the very actions you take to protect the planet.

I certainly hope so.

Based.

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Jenova isn't a "race" per se. It's like a hivemind virus/bacteria thing. The cetra woman was just what they contained and sealed it in. For all we know it was her will that got corrupted into the "jenova" personality, much like what happened with sephiroth. But in the end sephiroth was stronger.

It's possible the meteor contained more of whatever infestation jenova is(and potentially how it was called). I'm pretty sure though it was just being used as a giant space rock to crack the planet coconut so sephiroth could drink it's delicious green milk.

Was the black materia even made by jenova? I don't recall.

Well, if this is the same planet from FFX, it's pretty fucking retarded and spiteful.

Chronologically FFX would have to take place long before FFVII and it would almost have to be on another planet as well, but I think we all know that that idea, while literally reinforced by the Remake, is COMPLETELY ridiculous in any serious narrative sense and can be dismissed out of hand and ignored.

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I don't either. The whole Black and White Materia deal felt like more of a plot device than anything. But going back to Jenova, the being that was in Hojo's lab and Mt. Nibel reactor, what we call Jenova, was an ancient who was infected by Jenova? I was kind of getting my wires crossed because at first they pushed the Jenova is an ancient angle, then all of a sudden she wasn't. Did they believe that the blob creature itself was an ancient, i.e. the infected Ancient, and then further realized that the cells were Jenova? Jenova is pretty intriguing; definitely one of the draws I had to playing through. The discussion around her is really fun to get into.

NOOOO YOU'RE JUST A NOSTALGIAFAG

>people arguing over whether or not everyone survived at the end of VII
>when Advent Children exists
>when Dirge of Cerberus exists

???

Shinra scientists thought Jenova was an ancient. Only after Dr Gast escaping with Ifalna and having Aerith, Hojo learnt Jenova was space parasite, because Gast recorded his conversations with Ifalna. Hojo didnt have reason to go public with his findings.

There's laughter in the background at the end. It's not ambiguous.

I'm not interested in discussing the implications of terrible spinoffs. The original ending was designed to be somewhat ambiguous and make you think (like with ), and those sequels ruin it entirely. That's reason enough to ignore them.

I'm not interested in Nomura's "vision" of what happened after FFVII ended. The Compilation was a mistake and whatever good aspects he contributed to the story of the original do not undo that ongoing, continuous mistake. The time jannies are the ultimate example.

Original intent.

Sequels are dogshit and retcon alot anyway.

Hojo also dissected ifana down the cellular level(at the very least clearly states in the remake, but I see no reason he wouldn't have in the original as well) if anybody would've recognized jenova was more than just ancient it would've been him.

Dr. Gast seemed like a legitimately cool character. Did some mad science stuff, researched what seemed to be everything, gets put on the Jenova project, fucks and impregnates the past of a dying race. Too bad it seems like Shinra offed him for defecting. I was also hoping Hojo would have a redemption arc after meeting him on the beach, but he just spiraled further and further out of control. Fascinating that he was responsible for Sephiroth.

So you're going to ignore the laughter at the end of the game because you want your epic headcanon ambiguous ending? It's supposed to be somber at first then uplifting at the end.

The fact that someone WILLINGLY fucked hojo and bore his child, when she could have been fucking vincent, is the most ridiculous part in this game

Bruh, I'm 100% on the "humanity is not wiped out by Holy" side exactly because of shit like the laughter of the kids at the end, I just think the spinoffs are not relevant to interpreting the original ending because they are terrible games and, more importantly, because the ending of the original was supposed to be ambiguous, as I said.

Yeah, just another one of these characters that represent the good humanity can do, in this case as a foil to Hojo.

It's funny. Gast has a similar role to Zack, being an already dead character we only see in flashbacks and recordings, but with massive impact on the story. WAY MORE than Zack, I would argue, as the father of Aeris, the one who frees her and Ifalna, discovers the true secrets of the Cetra and Jenova, etc etc.

But of course Zack is 1000000x more sexy and popular with the shounentards so everyone obsesses about him and he gets his own game even tho it ruins the mystique of the character and obviously the surprise of his very existence. He's barely even a character goddamit, he's really just a plot device. People's priorities are so fucked up, just like the people claiming the time jannies are brilliant addition to the story since "oh good we can do new things now, SE surely won't fuck this one up!"
Its all so tiresome.

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I was so disappointed when I went back to Zack's parents after Cloud remembered the truth. Wanted to give them closure or at least go, "I do know this guy! He's dead. Like long dead." But nope. The game did a pretty good job continuity wise and allowing you to catch up with seemingly useless characters, so that drop felt especially jarring.

Same thing happened to me. It was a simpler time tho, and since the Zack flashback was a late addition in the dev cycle, iirc, not to mention optional, so I can understand not including ANOTHER extra scene like that, even if I wish they had.

RIP to my nigga Zack, killed by 3 grunts, not 300000.

my headcanon was always that Hojo impregnated her without her knowledge by drugging her and implanting an embryo.
I know that directly contradicts what we were actually shown but I legit cannot believe anyone would fuck Hojo on purpose.

Zack is infinitely more intimate with the player through the means of being clouds subconscious for like 3/4 of the game and basically being what cloud was trying to be. He's more important than you give him credit for.

True, gast is more influential, but he's just sort of spun by as a plot point no more than naniki's dad. Being influential alone doesn't make you important to the player, otherwise this mother fucker would be the most popular character. He does deserve more but he wasn't given that and you can't expect people to get attached to something so much in the background.

Hojo is a crazy asshole for all we know he had some kind of mind control materia. I mean he also pulled those women on costa de sol, so yeah.

Perhaps

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costa del sol is more believable because all sorts of hoes are willing to suck dick if you have power and money, regardless of your looks, especially if they don't know what are disgusting degenerate fuck you are. Lucrecia didn't have that plausible deniability

>puppers
reddit

Doggos then

>The fact that someone WILLINGLY fucked hojo and bore his child
What do you mean by that?

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youtube.com/watch?v=kQL7LW3CWXs

>2020 and Vincent cope cucks are still as delusional and as retarded as always because they can't cope with the fact that their self-insert is literal and unironic cuck
Never change, faggots. Headcanon shit as much as you wish. Nothing changes THE CANON. Canon being that your emo vampire fag got cucked, fair and square.

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I see your point.
Tbh mostly just rubs me the wrong way how Zack was supposed to be a secret in the original, but with all the spinoffs and whatnot that's an experience of the original that's been largely ruined for many.
That's the old man in me, I guess. Water under the bridge.

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IDGAF about emo vampire man he wasn't even a good turk.

I'm just saying hojo is the kind of guy who's probably into brainjacking.

She know that he an insane fuck though.

I'm not a vincentfag and I'm not denying anything, i'm just saying it's incocievable that this could happen

Is, but he didn't pull it with Lucrecia. One would need to have a brain in the first place for him or anyone to hijack anything.

And? So is Sephiroth, yet he was the character women were crazy about back in the day.

Doesn't it kind of soften the moral complexity?
Shinra is now solely responsible for all the damage done by the bombings, and basically nobody killed by the plate dropping?

Get back in your coffin Vincent.

Yeah, showing Shinra making the reactor explosion worse was a mistake

This is one of the most annoying things about the Remake. Of course modern SE can't be trusted to leave the massive, plot-relevant moral ambiguities from the original alone. It's pathetic.

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Have you seen what type of characters women go after in fiction?
Have you ever read a single so-called romance novel for shit and giggles that was written by a woman to see how "ideal" man is according to them? Spoiler alert if you haven't: What every so-called romance novel has in common with each other is that its main male love interest is an insane cunt that would (should) be jailed, but he gets a pass because he is hot.
Even in this game we have Sephiroth as the best example of that. A man that women are crazy after, and his main trait is being insane.

Do you think he's related to Tseng?

They are both Wutai men.

But Sepiroth was hot. Which is ironic counting that he is suppose to look like a woman

They have being fantasy rice in common. That's for sure.

Hojo was hot once upon the time as well. Grandpa is 62 for fucks sake. Do you expect of him to look like Sephiroth at that age? Brad Pitt and Leonardo were two most popular men back in the day. Both look like shit now, and both are younger than said Hojo.

I was playing FF7 a couple of days ago and got to this scene. It seems like Shinra bombing their own reactor and blaming the rebels has precedents.

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It is almost as if Sephiroth was based on a man that was described to have been "beautiful as a woman"
Also, feminine men are more popular in Japan. Even in West women lust after pretty boys.

Lucrezia was a scientist. It always made the character deeper and more interesting to me, assuming her someone who placed scientific progress and a man of intelligence over muh pretty boy action hero. When you find her in that cave, her first question is "where's Sephiroth? Where's my son?" and she doesn't give much of a shit about Vincent.

And I fucking hated how DoC turned her into a generic damsel in distress who was forced to make bad decisions for the hero's sake. Now that was character assassination and the biggest crime of the spinoffs.

>Both look like shit now
Incredible cope there bud.

Yeah, it's definitely a plausible thing for Shinra to do. They blame the plate drop on Avalanche too. It just felt like they already established Shinra doing things like that and didn't need to add another example. I think it's more interesting if the bomb just did more damage than expected.

I've only finished up until the end of Disk 1.
Does it get better?

Cope about what? I'm not the one dragging their asses down on celebrities dedicates sites because they couldn't be pretty and 20 forever. I'm not the one making articles about "Celebrities that age badly" then slap their pictures on them every single time.

This. Only roasts who hit the wall 30-40+ are into classical macho men.

It would have made sense too. You're blowing a reactor, and in disc 2 they said they can't just stop one midway otherwise the excess of mako in the pipe would cause a chained explosion.

He is not wrong. They did age badly, bud.
That doesn't mess with their talent to act, but they certainly aren't heartthrobs that they used to be because everybody ages. Almost everybody looks worse in their old age than in their prime.

VIIR has good combat, I recommend it.

go back

Heckin' good boiz?

>chad
>one (1) gf
>doesn't even fuck her
Cloud always wins you dumb secondaries.

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>he thinks that insane mofo needs to be hot to attract bitches
Dumb bitch, did you ever see Joker. Just look at this fucking face right here. Look at it. It doesn't even look human at all, let alone attractive. It looks like the face from someone's nightmare, yet this is the *ideal man* that so many girls dreamed about meeting one day to be his Harley (which he abuses; but this is *relationship goals* according to so many little girls that we are talking about).
Why do you think that yandere trope is more popular in otomes than VN-s for men? Why do you think that said otomes/romance novels/romance movies always involve a psychotic love interest?

Bitches love insane psychos. They are attracted to danger. They are attracted to the idea that they can change the bad boy and/or be the only one he will care about.

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what the fuck? why are you making shit up? there is no contention over who killed aerith

factually incorrect. Jenova is a being. With the power to infect others. She's a shapeshifter.

>cloud made a promise to girl he likes
>some edge lord faggot kills his mom , burns his town, slashes his girl
>keeps his promise by killing the edgelord faggot
>for his troubles he gets put in a jew tube for 5 years
>wakes up mentally 16 or whatever and has mako aids and alien aids

cloud is suffering but he kept his promise you niggers.

People also often forget that Lucretia also looked up to him as a scientist.
She knew he was capable of making things happen, and she wanted to see the results too.

Yeah, even though he was never a SOLDIER, the flashback reveals he really was a cool dude regardless

>cloud wanting to kill reno, johnny , and grunts is sephiroth influenced.

source?

Why don't they just use all their technology to populate a new planet?

I believe that's the whole premise to FF7R. The ending of FF7 is not a good ending for either party. Humanity eventually gets wiped out so Cloud's party loses, and Sephiroth obviously loses also. Therefore both sides have strong motivation to change the original's ending which results in the Remake. Both Aerith and Sephiroth want to change fate.

They blew their load with Sephiroth's (and Clouds) power level too early by having him throw buildings at you and having it be ineffectual. Now nothing Sephiroth does anymore is going to be impressive unless they push it to the point of ridiculousness, like if they were to make him pick up Midgar and throw Midgar at you or something, and it also makes the stupidness that Cloud can't get past a locked door even worse too.

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Because they fucked up space travelling mid way and dropped the space project after Sheera fucked over Cid.

Didn't that happen in some kind of alternate space?

>not Red's cubs laughing
ha

>is FF7R worth it when it drops for PC?

no. i really hate what they did with it.

Does it matter? It still sets a scale and now there's nowhere to go anymore because pushing it further would break everything. It's the same problem Dragonball has where they've been stuck at "Whoa, he blew up a mountain, and also he could blow up the planet if he wanted to but he won't, he's so strong!" for 300 episodes.

arr rook the same

>leaping around an inter-dimensional tornado, cutting massive chunks of debris into pieces
>can't climb over an overturned cabinet
Shit like this never makes sense.

Yeah they went all in too early. There's a very similar fight at the end of Advent Children, but by then Cloud has gone through all the events of FF7 and is much stronger. Having such a fight in the first part makes it nearly impossible to progress power levels. They can't top the ending of FF7R.

Zack is a secret? I remember his death scene was optional... but I also think they explain his existence during Cloud's mental breakdown

Especially with Barret's speech about shouldering everyone's worries and burdens and so on. Meh.

Think about it from the writers' perspective
>deliberately mention Holy might wipe out humanity
>deliberately don't clearly show humanity's fate in the end
Incredibly simple. Obviously meant to be interpreted either way.
The children laughing at the end are Red's cubs. Also people don't die in FFVII, they "return to the planet" and they will be reborn. So no life is ever lost in that world. Not terribly tragic.

Zack isn't a secret in the original. It's possible to miss some backstory but the main story does go into Zack. It's a huge part of Cloud's story.

I did too user

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Ive been thinking this is likely the case. Unfortunately it flies in the face of the original because, simply based on FF7's ending and the point of the whole game, there is no way humanity was actually wiped out, as we were discussing earlier. If this is the case, to me it shows how people like Kitase and Nomura have 0 understanding or respect for the original intent of the story and are happy to make the bad interpretation (read as: wrong interpretation) the "canon" one for the purposes of the reboot, as they made the good interpretation where humanity survives canon for purposes of the other sequel games. I happen to agree with it, but I still hate that it was done because the ambiguity is a far more interesting way to present this kind of ending.
Won't even go into how this is contradictory as its been confirmed in the Ultimania that all of this is part of the Compilation.

Consider for just one moment how this being the case undoes everything to do with death and sacrifice in the game if death is as meaningless as you say. Let everyone die, it doesn't matter right? By this logic Sephiroth isn't even a villian. Obviously wrong.
youtu.be/J2srKV5WTRk?t=70
This whole crowd is the 2 kids of Red XIII? Don't think so senpai.

I meant secret as in you're not supposed to know it while playing through the game. It's a surprise as you go along, starting with the photo Tifa took iirc, but yeah of course Zack is revealed during the normal events of the game as you play, even if they don't go into much depth into him.

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The game shows you some middle class people who don't want to get caught between two sides of a conflict, and in the original I don't remember any citizen openly complaining about Avalanche (at least not pre-plate drop).
Also, the points that President Shinra makes to Barrett are valid and serve to explicate the hardships that Avalanche either directly or indirectly brought upon the people.

Man, I didn't remember them being that creepy.
Anyway that's obviously the voices of the lifestream.

Kitase, Nomura and Nojima literally made the original FF7 though. They made both FF7 and the remake. Saying they have no respect or understanding for the original doesn't make any sense. It's fine if you don't like the way the story's going, but it's been their story from beginning to end.

>Kitase and Nomura have 0 understanding or respect for the original intent of the story and are happy to make the bad interpretation
Kitase was the DIRECTOR of the original. Nojima wrote it who also wrote the Remake. I think they know whether an interpretation is wrong or not.

Notice how someone important is missing from that list. Now I wouldn't say that Sakaguchi being gone makes or breaks this operation alone, but it is notable that the core concept of the game was his idea, and it shows how things have changed on the development team. I'd like to hear from him on the subject.

Regardless, even if it was the whole original team, people like George Lucas have proved how creators can misunderstand their creations, I see no reason to just take the word of god on what things mean when we're talking about intentional ambiguities in the story that is open to interpretation. These guys contributed to the major elements of the story, I agree, but we are talking here about the one biggest point of the whole game, the ending and what it means. We don't have to turn off our brains when 23 years later if they decide to suddenly say what they think the meaning of something is. Their interpretation is just one of many. That's art for ya.

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Nope. Tseng is Chinese name while Hojo is Japanese. The only thing they have in common is that they are fantasy Asians.

>We don't have to turn off our brains when 23 years later
People have been speculating about this since the release of the original.
>Their interpretation is just one of many.
Glad we're in agreement.
This is all Sakaguchi has said publicly about the Remake AFAIK:

[Note: In Sakaguchi’s first interview for this story, conducted in late 2014 — prior to Square Enix’s announcement — we asked him about his thoughts on a potential FF7 remake.]

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USAIn general, I don’t like remakes. When I was at Square, I was opposed to making them. If people were going to spend time and effort on a remake, I thought that time would be better spent on something new. And I still feel the same way.
[Note: After Square Enix’s announcement and first two trailers for the game appeared, we followed up to see if his opinion had changed.]

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USABack when I ran development at Square, I would say, “Let’s not do remakes.” I was always thinking, “Rather than remakes, let’s put that energy into new projects.” But time has passed, and now we can construct game worlds with CG far more detailed than what I was thinking of at the time. Now that we’ve reached this level, you can’t help but get excited about the possibilities. [Laughs] With the announcement of the FF7 remake, I’m looking forward to it both as its father and as a player. If possible, I’d like to see a scalpel taken to not just the visuals, but the game mechanics as well, to create something that we can become even more deeply immersed in.

>Notice how someone important is missing from that list
pic related

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who's missing?

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I don't think you understood his post.

Sakaguchi not being there is valid, though I wonder how much involvement he actually had in the details of the ending. The original story is his doing, but the ending details could've been Nojima and Kitase (with Nomura). And while the original may have been more open to interpretation, this is the path they chose to take afterwards. Granted, games like Crisis Core came out after Sakaguchi had already left.

It's just one interpretation out of many, true, but I wouldn't say it's misunderstanding anything. It may be different from yours, but that doesn't mean it's a misunderstanding.

Neither of those statements mean much in the end, since the Remake is more than just a simple remake which he seems to be referring to. They are creating something new with this. Whether or not Sakaguchi would approve of the direction though, that'd be interesting to know.

nobody user, nobody

I'll buy them as soon as I can get them all on one single system, whatever that is.

good, good

>is FF7R worth it when it drops for PC?
All FF7R needed was a different title. You never understand just how important something like that is until something like this releases. If it had more fitting title, there would be significantly less butthurt in its reception from fans of the original.

If you go into the game knowing that it's a completely different story that is kinda based on the one used in the original FF7, it's a really cool movie/game.... but it is NOT FF7, NOT a jrpg and most certain is NOT a remake.

>instead of one Zolom on a stake, there is a whole nest of Zoloms slaughtered
I know what you mean, though. This would have to turn into DBZ in order to up Sephiroth's powers from the first part.

That's the beauty of it. They baited everyone with the title. Remake is the name. It's the same as Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus. Remake is the name of the game. You go into the game thinking it simply is a remake, but they baited everyone.

>NOT a jrpg

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Did you just like...forget george lucas exists? Sometimes people can get older and change how they feel about shit and fuck it up. He just had the luck that the people who took up the mantle after him fucked it up even worse.

>Oh my god it's Zack guys! Look it's totally Zack talking to Cloud! I love Zack SO MUCH!
Why do people still do this despite how in your face the remake version was?

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We're explicitly talking about a popular interpretation of the original's ending here, not correctly representing the tone and themes or whatever.

Lucas is the only example I ever see brought up in these discussions. Lucas is a hack, that much we know. Also the original Star Wars was a mess before it was saved by the editor. It's not like Lucas alone created something great to begin with. He had help and then later didn't.

haven't played jrpg in your life, have you?

>is shimming through crevasse to mask load times
>watch move
>walk slowly down long corridor to mask load times
>watch move where you dress in drag and dance with fags
>hold Triangle for 5 seconds to mask load times
>to watch move
>is shimming through crevasse to mask load times
>watch move worth it?
no

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See the second paragraph.

Very interesting, tho unfortunately no comment on plot elements, understandably.
Based Sakachuchi dabbing on Remakes. Notice how he never says anything about changing the story, almost like no one would expect a remake to do so... but w/e that's neither here nor there.

Really would love to hear what he has to say about time jannies and whatnot.

While I agree that you can choose to interpret the game's ending however you want and have no interest in the lore implications of the sequels, for all the reasons we've been discussing in this thread I find it baffling that someone could play the game seriously with all it has to say about the value of life (which is clearly distinct from dying and returning to the lifestream, otherwise Aeris' sacrifice becomes completely meaninglyess) and mankind's struggle to redeem itself via our characters with the hints like the laughing children at the end and conclude that yes, the writers intended us to believe that humanity was wiped out by the planet for being a threat to it and unworthy of life.

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>[23 year old game]Sephiroth killing Aerith[/23 year old game]

heh, chuckled

It perfectly fits the theme of death not being the end but rather being a portal to a new life. All our heroes became part of the lifestream just like Aerith did.

I've played every single Final Fantasy

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They didn't bait, the flat out lied. For half a fuckin decade. Their lies were further corroborated by the people interviewing them. It's not subversion of expectations when you directly set those expectations.

I don't mind a "sad" ending, personally. Cloud and the gang save the planet, but sacrifice human life in the process. And even that sacrifice isn't life itself being wiped out, as it still exists in the Lifestream. It can become something new, something different. In the end, the planet still wins. Without those sacrifices, there would be no planet, there would be no life, there would be no potential for a new beginning.

It's not nihilistic, you tard. Just because you're a baby-brained moron who cannot handle anything but a fairytale ending where everybody lives happily ever after doesn't mean that all other endings are nihilistic or hopeless.

A major theme of FF7 is accepting death as part of a lifebringing force which we are all part of.

If humanity survived, then what's even the point of the Nanaki scene? Why was it included? What narrative purpose did it have? Why is it set 500 years in the future? It makes no sense to show us any of that unless we have to assume that the planet moved on - that even the end of humanity is the end of everything. It shows us a new beginning. That is the fucking point.

Well yes, because he's the most recognizable.

Also I've never liked star wars to begin with. A new hope is the only decent movie and it's only that. For the time it had a unique cinematography and presentation, and the setting always had potential. After that it turned into a fuckin mexican soap opera in space with the occasional nice looking scene. Best thing that ever came out of star wars was space balls.

What's the point of having technology if using it means everyone will die. Use your brain.

I'm still convinced zack isn't with cloud at all in the remake. That's ACTUALLY cloud's subconscious talking to him there.

It's more so that I wished people used more examples than just one repeated over and over since it makes it sound like that's the only example out there.

That's an interesting way to remember it
eteknix.com/kitase-nomura-explain-final-fantasy-vii-remakes-episodic-format/
>Nomura: “In addition to delving into these episodes more deeply, we’re preparing a number of mechanisms and such. To those who played the original version will know the important parts and understand the story from the beginning to the end. Also for these people, I hope that they can be surprised once again.”

>Kitase: “I don’t want the remake to end as something nostalgic. I want to get the fans of the original version excited.We’ll be making adjustments to the story with this feeling in mind.”

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That's alot of spinoffs.

It does not. It actually makes makes steps to remove the complexity of the original.

The remake took gray morality and turns a lot of it black and white cause nomura sees the world like that due to autism.

Yeah it should have been called Uncharted.

They were talking out of both ends of their fucking mouths.

If it was SOOO fucking obvious that this was not gonna be a remake, theny why wasn't this reported? The consensus among the media as well as the audience (including Zig Forums) was always that this will be a remake with added content.

Only after the fact are people like you coming out of the woodwork with these quotes that supposedly should've made us all go "oh so it's not a remake!"

A direct quote from a Square Enix Gamespot interview
>in terms of how faithful the remake is to the original Final Fantasy VII, from the perspective of the storyline it is very faithful indeed

It is faithful for the most part. 90% of the game is very similar to the original, then time jannies happen, then we go back to normal. The game can continue just like the original did now, we're outside of Midgar about to chase Sephiroth. That's how it'll likely continue, too. It'll be 90% very faithful with 10% crazy asspulls before going back to normal.

A story is more than a chain of events on a checklist. Minor changes can have enormous implications, and the changes in FF7R are not minor. It's 0% faithful. I care about the core plot & themes, not whether or not Cloud jumps off a train or off a truck in the first scene. You can have a story take place with completely new characters, in a new time period and with completely different events but STILL be faithful. But Nomura has ripped out every interesting aspect of FF7's story and replaced it an idiotic, convoluted trainwreck involving the stupidest ideas ever conceived.

Besides, were talking about the intention of SE to deceive their audience and it's so fucking obvious what expectations were created. There even is a fucking Japanese ad which clearly implies this to be a remake that people can enjoy who never played the original.

This was marketed as "the new way to experience FF7" on purpose.
It was deliberate.
youtube.com/watch?v=8075kc0OfmA

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Honestly the part when Sephiroth essentially wins and summons Meteor, resulting in the Weapons being woken up and the party losing Cloud was really good. Got chills when it cuts to black, you hear the cries of the planet and then see Cloud sitting there before he walks away. Very well done

And honestly just seeing Sephiroth in the Crater was pretty freaky too. Like he pops down and without the game saying anything you go "holy shit, this is the real Sephiroth he really has just been here the entire game"

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>If it had more fitting title, there would be significantly less butthurt
True but it would also not have sold half as many copies as it did if this was marketed as just another lame addition to the FF7 compilation.

If the next part has a segment where you play as OG Cloud and Remake Cloud side by side I'm buying 10 copies

No, it can't.

But it's already drastically changed ?
Yes, locations and events will be there. But then:

>Zack is confirmed alive and (devs quote) "will lead to unforeseen developments"
>Cloud already revealed as unreliable narratore before his flashback
>Aerith already knows she'll die and will willingly walk to her death rather than being murdered
>Sephiroth's motivations and behavior are way different this time around and he knows the future. he is actually a good guy
>Massive powercreep at the end of part 1 makes it impossible to top without introducing an even bigger threat

Okay sure, we will meet Hojo at Costa del Sol, go to Cosmo Canyon etc. But the underlying plot has already been drastically altered.

lmao this dude only got 2 insight

>If humanity survived, then what's even the point of the Nanaki scene?
>What narrative purpose did it have?

Midgar from the beginning was shown to be a corrupting blight on the planet, when you step out onto the overworld for the first time you can see that everything in the immediate area surrounding the city is just dead and lifeless. The end credits, how I interpreted it, was to show that the lifestream+Holy really did save the planet and that Midgar was retaken by nature and life itself.

Whether or not humanity survived is up to your interpretation, and ultimately your preference. Believing we survived is perfectly valid

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THIS.

I don't care if the game is good, if it sells millions etc. I'm not trying to make it fail. I just want people to realize what it is.
This is NOT the new way to play FF7. This is a new "clever" metaplot that weakens and outright contradicts elements that made the original special in the first place

Anyone is free to enjoy, of course

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Chill, bro.

You are getting themes confused here, as many people seem to be. There is a difference between being alive normally and Aeris being able to have some influence in the lifestream after death. The point is also not "don't worry about dying it's gonna happen to us all anyway so it's ok if all humanity is wiped out as long as the planet is fine, we'll just be reborn as something new later."
This is the point of this scene: youtu.be/Wx3duFYCcho?t=210

Accepting death is absolutely part of the point of the game, and we do so many times throughout it. I have no objection to games that do shit like wipe out all of civilization or kill many or all beloved characters, but this specific ending doesn't lend itself to that once you stop and think about it. Everything we did was to save the planet AND humanity, which I would think would be obvious. Our party is the agent of humanity that represents the potential for good, and in the end we depose both Sephiroth and Shinra. If the planet killed us, Marlene, & all the other innocents in it's great judgement as to whether humanity was too great a threat to it, then it's the worst villain in the game. If humanity survived Meteorfall but faded away organically, that would be a more reasonable way to handle it, which could have been implied in the ending, but for all the reasons stated previously I don't think is the case.

You gotta ask yourself something senpai: why did Aeris intervene to bring out the lifestream... AFTER Sephiroth was already dead and gone via our party? We already knew the planet would survive Meteor, that was the whole point so Sephiroth could absorb it. Was the point to save Midgar... just so the lifestream could wipe out humanity anyway? By this logic humanity would have LITERALLY been better off with Aeris doing nothing, but instead she got the lifestream to kill all humans? That doesnt sound like her senpai.

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This.
In writing things have meaning, and are made with intent.
You can't just reuse or reference something that came before and expect it to leave the same effect or carry the same weight. Remake felt like dangling keys in front of the face of someone who's played the original, someone new will be completely lost

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GET BACK IN YOUR KEK COFFIN VINCENT

HAHAHA

YOUR KEKFIN

HAHAHA

YOUR SARKEKPHAGUS

YOUR KEKOLD CRYPT

HAHAHA

>We already knew the planet would survive Meteor, that was the whole point so Sephiroth could absorb it.
Pretty sure the wound was meant to be fatal. Bugenhagen goes over this. I mean the party already knows Holy might wipe out evereyone.

It literally ends with "The Unknown Journey Continues"

Read the final two answers.

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This is so stupid, you can go to a vid of the OG's ending right now and see the comment section flooded with people declaring it the bad end and how genius Remake is for retroactively deciding it is. All retards

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Imagine believing Kitase and Nojima. I forgot that they were so reliable.

I remember it being said that the idea is to make a massive wound, if it was "lethal" seems like it would be too much for Sephiroth's plan to work, but hey, maybe the wound would be so bad it would fuck up life on the planet massively or would die without Sephiroth, who knows.

Regardless, I have strong Occam's Razor issues with thinking that Aeris caused the genocide of humanity intentionally. That alone seems to go against everything she would want. I suppose it could have happened accidentaly, though, but HOO BOY would that be embarassing for her.

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Game confirms they're lying here fella

Imagine NOT believing in these men

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can we talk about how the original translator saw yufi and decided "yeah i'm gonna spell it yuffie no one will misread the pronunciation"

How did you pronounce "Tseng"? For me it's Tesseng

The wound was meant to be severe enough to make Lifestream concentrate in massive amounts while Sephiroth would be there to make sure the Planet doesn't heal as he sucked up the energy.
To question if it was supposed to be lethal or not makes no difference since the Planet wasn't supposed to survive as anything but Sephiroth's vehicle across the stars.

Don't pronounce the T.
Seng.

Much prefer Zack's death in the original. Just feels sudden and senseless, in keeping with how the rest of the game handles death. I do like Zack's characterization in CC for the most part though, even if I don't like pretty much anything else from it aside from good guy Sephiroth. I think CC suffers a lot from purple prose too, in the original from what little we see of Zack he comes off as a pretty grounded blue collar sort of good guy.

Also kind of prefer his long hair design but that's a real nitpick

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DESU I think that whole "vehicle" angle was added in Advent Children, but it doesnt really matter. He was gonna become god of the planet and do... something. Maybe some Kefka terraforming shit or maybe travel the universe, who knows.

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By the time I played it for the first time I'd already heard "Ts___" words being pronounced aloud so I knew how to say it.
Not Yuffie though.

>when they fuck off or get over their honeymoon phase.

of 23 years? kys retard

fuck zack and fuck compilation trash.

his long hair design is preferred by fujos too so he can be bara and clap clouds cheeks.

And yet you need to be familiar with and have a good retained memory of every piece of the compilation to know what the hell's happening in the "remake"

>He was gonna become god of the planet and do...something
Whether this was actually intentional writing or not, I do like how his vague motivations tie into the ambiguity of how much influence Jenova has over him. Jenova's some alien parasitic lifeform that does nothing but consume everything it touches. There's no question that Sephiroth himself is the one directing and manipulating the Jenova cells in other beings, but are Sephiroth's motivations really his own or the result of the Jenova cells within him willing him to consume everything?

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for me it's dfc pricilla

Since Jenova's reunion is more of a subconscious thing for those injected with the cells and the reunion taking place at Sephiroth's crib, maybe the whole planet devouring thing is subconscious on Sephiroth's part? Maybe Sephiroth was in charge consciously but Jenova, as the disease she is, was giving Sephiroth a boner for drinking planet blood?
If the Jenova in Shinra HQ was a Cetra infected by Jenova, Sephiroth could've become the new 'Ancient Woman'.

>Everything we did was to save the planet AND humanity, which I would think would be obvious. Our party is the agent of humanity that represents the potential for good, and in the end we depose both Sephiroth and Shinra. If the planet killed us, Marlene, & all the other innocents in it's great judgement as to whether humanity was too great a threat to it, then it's the worst villain in the game
Your human-centric perspective goes against the theme I just described. You treat it as a run of the mill "good guys must defeat bad guy to save humanity" story, in which case FF7's story is boring garbage.

Making us struggle but ultimately unable to hold on IS how life is. None of us wants to die and we don't want our loved ones to die but it is INEVITABLE. Accepting this fact and viewing it not as a tragedy but as a new beginning IS the entire point of the lifestream. Otherwise it makes no sense to include him. It makes no sense to include the Nanaki scene at the end. All of these things are only meaningful in the context of death and rebirth; ending an era and beginning a new one.
>why did Aeris intervene to bring out the lifestream
Headcanon. The lifestream appeared and we saw Aerith face. That's it.
The reason it appeared was to protect the planet. Nanaki says that "it's too late for holy" and "forget Midgar, we must worry about the planet" in the ending, implying that meteor would destroy it and that holy on its own wasn't enough to stop it.
>We already knew the planet would survive Meteor
Play the game. It was strongly implied that Seph miscalculated and that meteor could destroy the world.

SOON

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I played FF7 for the first time around 2009 or 2010, I was in college. It's a pretty good game, not really a GREAT game, but considering the load of shit that released early in the lifespan of the N64 and PS1 I guess it's not surprising so many people latched on to anything above average.
The story is ok, nothing revolutionary. The pacing is, however, terrible
The characters are pretty forgettable beyond the 2 or 3 that stand out, they just have unique designs. I remember not even caring about aerith dying because it was so inconsequential to gameplay and her character in cutscenes was annoying. Then you have borderline wastes of space like Red XIII, Cait Sith, Vincent, and Yuffie bloating the cast. Cid actually has a reason to be there and he has personality so I give him a pass
The actual gameplay is nothing unique in JRPG fare. The materia system is cool in concept and execution, probably the only thing that stands out to me personally

I personally never understood the hype

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sephiroth being gay ,flamboyant, and "seductive" because of fujo would make some sense but i know its just fujo pandering and what japs think is cool for this villian archetype.

sephiroth is so fucking gay its annoying. kingdom hearts was a mistake.

they butchered aeris's character with her stupid i know the future and my cetra powers garbage.

these bakas have no subtlety no chill.

i didnt even think he had roofie materia equipped

You don't understand the hype because you've experienced the same things in other games. The plot, music and execution of the OG was ground breaking at the time it was released.
I mean, I wouldn't call Wolfenstein 3D great by today's standards.

FF7R stretches the first 5 hours of the game into 30 by padding the shit out of them and proceeds to shit all over VII's original plot, so no, FF7R is completely worthless.

My prediction was that FF7R was specifically for people who do not like FF7. Just look at how true this has become
>the original story sucks! give us a new one!
>the original gameplay sucks! give us different gameplay!
>the original themes about death and identity suck! make it about destiny!
>the original ending sucks! give us fairytale ending!

>The laughter of human children at the end
Did you forget that Red XII, and presumably his children, can talk? Why do think its human laughter?

like the star wars sequels

>Doesn't it kind of soften the moral complexity?

Impossible, as any moral complexity in the original was only implied, not real.

>Shinra is now solely responsible for all the damage done by the bombings, and basically nobody killed by the plate dropping?

Shinra always was Evil Inc staffed by villains from Captain Planet, and blowing up their own civilians to blame Avalanche is exactly they did in the original. Furthermore, "damage done by bombings" is not even shown in the original. You also should play the game before shitposting, because while plate drop is not as deadly, you still see shit tons of casualties.

>simply based on FF7's ending and the point of the whole game, there is no way humanity was actually wiped out
You're a retard who is too stupid to interpret obvious hints. What's the point of the post credit scene? Just to show that Nanaki has kids? Tard.

>is FF7R worth it
No.

This (and this)

I agree. When I first played the original, I was surprised by just how intimidating they managed to make Sephiroth on what is, by today's standards, such outdated hardware. Regardless of the quality of his character, they did a great job in building him up as the main villain.

Sephiroth in almost every other 7-related piece of media feels so utterly neutered and non threatening, its honestly one of the things that staved me off of playing the original for so long since I assumed that's what he was always like. His face is too soft, he looks like an angel, and all of his coy smirks and overly erudite dialogue is very obnoxious.

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It's to show that Midgar was consumed by nature and how humanity in the real world is going to be wiped out one day and all the technological marvel will not save us unless we treat our planet with respect.
There is literally zero reason to think the whole of humanity is wiped out in the end scene.

I am very impressed by your ability to cry on a this mongolian finger painting website.
It's an ambiguous ending, genius, we all see that. It's supposed to make you think about shit. From there you can conclude what you will based on how you read the story. We literally do not know if humanity is gone or not, we have to infer from what we do know. Why is this so hard for you?

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Actually worse imo. The prequels were horribly written and directed, but it didn't shit quite as much on the original trilogy as FF7R does with regard to its source material.

Hell, even Lucas' edits where he retroactively puts shit in the originals is less offensive. It's all bad, but none of it completely undermines the core of the originals.

This. People are seriously dumb. The entire point of the game was treehugging propaganda.

>"damage done by bombings" is not even shown in the original
Did you just completely forget the segment right after the opening mission where you walk Cloud through the destroyed streets and pass by all of the panicked citizens? It's in the remake too

>*because of jenova would make some sense...

god dammit.

Sakaguchi lost his mom during development so Aeris death, Sephiroth mommy issues and the fate of the Planet comes from a place of moarning.

I mean the disnwy sequels and how their defenders hate the originals

The point is Sephiroth isn't a cetra like he thought, he's a hybrid with whatever Jenova was. He's following his genetic nature, that's what his race does to propogate.

Killing off Aeris was Nomura's idea though.

Just personal but I'm not really a huge fan of the super realistic artstyle they went with. I know that sort of art direction's become a staple of the main FF series but I would've preferred a more stylized remake.

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>There is literally zero reason to think the whole of humanity is wiped out in the end scene.
Except that Buggenhagen told us it could happen; that we mysteriously jump 500 years into the future instead of showing the party shortly after meteor's crash; that the theme of the game is accepting death; that after death we are transformed into new life - viewing it as a new beginning.
It's funny that you write this as a defense of a comment that states "there is NO WAY humanity was actually wiped out"

As a writer, or any artist in general, you don't put shit in your work for zero reason. The important thing is the thought of humanity being gone. That's what matters. You agree that this thought is intentionally put into people's heads because you're saying that we don't know. So why did the writer do this in the context of this story? What message should we get from the thought "humanity is gone" considering all we have learned about Gaia in the game? Obviously that it's not a tragedy but a new beginning. That's why the ending of FF7 feels triumphant, not sad. It's the victory of life itself. Focussing on "OH IS MY FAVORITE SPECIES STILL AROUND" completely misses that.

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It was always definitely tree huggy shit, but that scene in combination with the laughter at the end (I know people are saying it could be Red's kids, but cmon do we really think that was the intent here, especially when there were so many voices in that clip?) always made me think that the idea was that humanity moved past its materialistic nature and learned to live in harmony in nature, something our characters are actively doing in the game, shutting down the reactors, using natural materia formations, etc. They kept it mysterious on purpose to make us think about this shit. Mission accomplished I'd say.

True but the core concepts of the lifestream were all Sakaguchi, the later ideas like her death built upon that.

Haven't seen this one before, I dig it. Is it fanart?

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oops I misread. never seen the sequels so I have no idea.

>Is it fanart?
From a magazine back when the original game was new. I know it was a Gundam artist but the name evades me rn unfortunately
Like how the characters look mostly based on their battle models, just more expressive of course

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>people arguing about humanity being wiped out in the ending
>ff7r is a sequel to ff7 and advent children
>children laugh at the end
>THIS PART IN MIDGAR HAS BEEN ABANDONED MEANS HUMANITY IS GONE
>nanaki is said to have a very long lifespan, meaning he outlived cloud and co

Ah yes, because FF7 came out before FF4 and FF6

The laughter of children is non-diegetic! You're not supposed to think that there are literally children laughing around the corner of the hill Nanaki is standing on. What do we associate with children? Youthfulness, a new life, a new beginning. That's why you hear laughter of children. Because of that association. Not because there are literally kids in the scene. When you hear the music play, do you think there is an orchestra somewhere in the scene too? No the music is not part of the narrative, it SUPPORTS the narrative by creating certain emotions. The same goes for the laughter of children you hear at the very end. It's like music, not actually part of the narrative.

Bugenhagen is talking about what happens when Holy is used, which in the end, is too late and doesn't work. This is why Lifestream pops out of the ground to stop Meteor.
The characters themselves speculating about what would happen doesn't mean that the worst case scenario did happen. Megacities like Midgar also don't get forested by themselves awfully fast, so the 500 years is probably just something they pulled out of a hat.
Ah yes, I forgot how FF4 and FF6 were major hits in the west and were the pioneers of the 3D revolution.
Stop playing dumb, you know what I mean.

>children laugh at the end
see
Advent Children is shit made for retards in order to get their money. It has nothing to do with the original story told by FF7.

You keep saying this point that "things are here for a reason" referring to Holy and whatnot... but no one is arguing otherwise. The purpose of every plot element introduced in a story is not always that they will be used for their intended purpose senpai, sometimes they are introduced to create drama in a story or to explore some philosophical concept. A "thing" does not have to be "used" to serve a purpose in a story.

Take Ellie from the Last of Us 1, since that's relevant again. She has the plot element of having a vaccine for the infection in her body or whatever but it is not used for that purpose in the story. It is used to create drama as people fight over it and to lead to a narrative debate on the issue. Similar sort of thing with Holy, only it actually is used, we just don't know the exact outcome which happens to tie into the core question of the narrative: is humanity capable and worthy of living in harmony with the planet or not?

I agree its open to interpretation, I can't prove it's diegetic, just as you can't prove its non-diegetic. I happen to believe that in conjunction with the shot of nature-reclaimed Midgar implies humanity has rejoined nature, but I can respect other views of it as well.

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M8, I literally grew up during the 3D revolution - I just had a N64 instead of a PS1 at the time. I had a SNES and an Atari 2600 before that

FF7 was nothing special beyond the CG cutscenes which was basically all the advertising

Sakaguchi's main contribution was the main theme of the game which was death and how we act upon it. About accepting death and how we move on.

>It has nothing to do with the original story told by FF7.
Official sequel.
You may not like, I don't like it.
However it's an official sequel, and FF7R is an official sequel too.

>Bugenhagen is talking about what happens when Holy is used, which in the end, is too late and doesn't work.
Holy does go into effect, but meteor is already too close to the planet.
>Megacities like Midgar also don't get forested by themselves awfully fast, so the 500 years is probably just something they pulled out of a hat.
It's a magical fantasy land. The lifestream could've caused Midgar to be overgrown by plants in seconds if that's what the devs wanted to show. They could've shown the entire party overlook and overgrown Midgar but they didn't because the theme of death and rebirth is more effective when most of our party is gone.
What is the overgrown Midgar a symbol of if not the end of the human era? It's similar to the statue of Ozymandias in Shelly's poem. Midgar was the most advanced city in the world, a city that started growing into the sky like the tower of babel. It's a metaphor for the pride and hubris of all of humanity, in any of its manifestations. It is significant that all that remains of the city is conquered by nature, strongly implying that the age of man has come to an end to make way for a new age.

Why is the concept of the lifestream in the game? Was it just throwin in there for no reason and with no payoff in the end?

People who dislike those actively seek to confuse themselves, argue over nothing and be mad, news at 11.

they killed aerith specifically to teach you to let go of the characters, you cannot possibly believe they survived the meteor

I cannot wait for remake to save aerith and all of humanity in a pathetic attempt to "SUBVERT" like star wars, it's going to be the greatest trainwreck in history

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Me too, but the difference is that I played it at launch instead of 10 years later when tech had improved substantially. I tried Banjo a year ago and thought it was a very meh 3D platformer but I understand that at the time, it was very much peak technology.
>What is the overgrown Midgar a symbol of if not the end of the human era?
It's the same thing as in FFX where Sin came and ate everyone up for being too technologically advanced and forgetting about nature.
It's literally just treehugging idealism which doesn't imply that the whole world is devoid of humanity. It's just one huge city that got destroyed by a cataclysm. The message is that the life-sucking-city that was killing planet with industry was returned to a natural state by the planet, thus signifying the power of nature itself.
There is no reason to assume everyone is dead except headcanon.

>She has the plot element of having a vaccine for the infection in her body or whatever but it is not used for that purpose in the story.
I didn't play that game but if that is the case, then I hazard the guess that the message of the game isn't about that but about something else. The lifestream, on the other end, is closely tied to FF7's core message of accepting death.
>just as you can't prove its non-diegetic
Yeah sure. But FF7 is retarded at how it presents itself if it's diegetic and up until that point, it wasn't retarded.

>>Human should give up and die so earth could survive lmao
Yes.

Hojo was literally swarmed in bitches in the original. Dude probably has a hell of a mouthpiece.

>There is no reason to assume everyone is dead except headcanon.
Oh and the theme of the game about accepting death and becoming new life after death. Why was the lifestream in the game again?

FF7 can either have a brilliant ending that fits the overall story, or a retarded ending for the sake of satisfying baby brains who want everybody to live. Since the baby brains are in a majority, they got Advent Children and a remake where humanity will most likely survive but that's not enough for them. They have to keep denying the original ending as well.

>M-m-m-m-muh Star Waaaars!
>Let's forget was specifically hated for daring to not have feel-good happy endings to character arcs.

Okay, retard.

this

Forgot to add that Lifestream is a metaphor for the circle of life. In the real world, we decompose and turn into nutrients for other lifeforms, while in-game, you go back to the lifestream to be turned into a new form of life.
You have to be a super brainlet to think the theme would cancel out humanity surviving.

>the main theme of the game which was death and how we act upon it.

Except that was never the main theme. It was barely a fucking theme at all, and attributing any weight whatsoever to death in the game where the big bad comes back from the dead a and the big good intervenes to save the planet/everyone despite being dead requires digging into vaguely-explained minute details of the setting metaphysics.

damn 13 year olds look like THAT?

Why are you arguing with yourself?

You make some reasonable points, but just as I believe the story makes little sense if humanity is wiped out by Holy, you seem to be on the opposite side, and in both cases this is due to our interpretation of the themes of the game. I think this stems from our different idea of what is meant by "life after death."

You seem to really be attached to this theme of rebirth and new life, which I can understand, but I don't know if I see it as strongly as you do in the game. To me the game is about coming to respect the environment and, by extension, the world beyond our petty, selfish desires. Realizing that we are part of something greater than ourselves. I understand this theme to mean more that, as Sakaguchi was dealing with his mother's death, he crafted this idea where life LITERALLY continues to exist as part of a world-spanning pool of life energy that everyone rejoins eventually and can directly influence the world in times of need.

I interpret this as Sakaguchi manifesting his belief (or perhaps wish, tho I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea) that his mother continues to impact the world through her memory, legacy, and actions in life, as opposed to this idea that the "point" of things is for the old to be washed away and reborn as something new, if I'm understanding it correctly.

I'd be interested to hear how you interpret it.

Aeris was killed to show that life can have meaning and purpose after death (in this case via magic lifestream schenanigans but the intent is clear), in addition to teaching us to come to terms with the fact that, yes, you must accept death as a part of life. That's my view.

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Disingenuous argument, whole point of the Lifestream is to introduce the player to the concept of death leading to something else
Spend most of the game dealing with death from an utterly humanistic standpoint, game reinforces this theme of "death not being the end because the planet/humanity carry the spirit/memory of them forever onwards" in the latter half of the story and literally spells this out by having Cloud reach out for Aerith in the Lifestream.

Death is sudden and terrible to us, but we carry the memory of those who are gone with us and they live on in that way, much in the same way people's spirits return to the Lifestream to be reborn as something new in the ingame universe.

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>Forgot to add that Lifestream is a metaphor for the circle of life. In the real world, we decompose and turn into nutrients for other lifeforms, while in-game, you go back to the lifestream to be turned into a new form of life.
Now you only need one more step and connect the dots between the lifestream which you just described and the ending we were shown. New forms of life, you say? Death and rebirth? Hmmm interesting. Now we are shown a non-human dog creature and its offspring climb up (rise up) and stand triumphantly above the ruins of a former civiliazion. "WHAT COULD IT ALL MEAN!?!?!?!"

>connect the dots
>humanity is gone because one city is covered in vines 500 years later and the only cast member who could survive that long is shown
Are you sure you're not just seeing what you want to see? You haven't given any proof of humanity being wiped out aside from your own beliefs and "muh theme".

You really think the point of all this was that humanity was irredeemable unless reincarnated as red dog boys? What about the main characters where were obviously heroes, and all the innocent bystanders, did they need to die too?
I don't see how this solves anything, philosophically.

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why are you boomers insisting about muh art and themes? Nothing of that is going to be relevant or even present in the Remake

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>OH NO NO NO NO

not an argument lmfao cope!

I don't give a fuck if something is "official" or not.
FF7 was not planned with a sequel in mind, FF8 notwithstanding, therefore anything that came afterwards, official or not, is just tacked on bullshit, no matter the source.

It will be if we get to the end of this train and it turns out the point of this Remake is to undo the "bad end where humanity gets wiped out" interpretation of the ending, as some people are suggesting.

It absolutely will be, we've already seen a glimpse of this in how the aftermath of the plate drop is handled, the reveal of Biggs' survival, etc.

This game is no longer about the depth and mysteries of the human condition.
It's a cliche story of conflict with le ebin tweest and "clever" multilayered storytelling, as Hollow as the very main theme of the game suggests

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I know and it makes me sad.
Wanna redpill me on what Hollow is about? You seem in the know, and I can't be bothered. Something something I'm Cloud and I don't know who I am, etc. etc.?

All I know is I'm annoyed they are trying to replace the fucking perfection that is the Main Theme of FFVII with anything else as a theme song.

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>as opposed to this idea that the "point" of things is for the old to be washed away and reborn as something new, if I'm understanding it correctly.
It's not washed away but transformed. Seeing Aerith face at the end reminds us that she is indeed in there. She did not disappear completely. The next step is to take this concept and make it universal. Indeed, Sakaguchi offers us something very close to Gaianism - a spiritual interpretation of James Lovelock’s Gaia Hypothesis. Gaia is presented as a spiritual Mother Earth, rather than just a planetary homeostatic mechanism mediated by biology. The spirits of departed are merging with the lifestream, their original source, to later be transformed into new manifestations of life. Viewing life like this creates a perspective that transcends individual consciousness and instead makes us take the point of view of the planet itself; it detaches us from particular manifestations of life in order to make us focus more on life as a whole.

>Wanna redpill me on what Hollow is about?
something something I am clous and why did you die, if only I realized sooner the sadness behind your smile, would you be here in my embrace? this time I will never let you go

I honestly have no idea, it seems about Zack or Aerith, but it could be about Sephiroth or Wakka as far as we know

>"muh theme"
Yes. Isn't that the point of everything? Or do you genuinely care about the survival of a species in a fictional universe in and of itself? It's fantasy. Nobody is harmed by making fiction in which Aerith is butt raped by Sephiroth. What we want to get out of the story are emotions and meaning and the themes of the story are the most important aspect with regard to that....unless you're a baby brained moron who literally is happy with stories that offer nothing beyond: "Good guys beat bad guy. Good guys are happy now."

>good job of fleshing out moral complexities
It's incredibly clear that's not the case from the first hour, when a significant amount of moral ambiguity is removed from the heroes because Shinra blew up the reactor, killing/hurting innocents, rather than Avalanche.

I'm sick of people ironically joking about this game being good and/or shills shilling. Just stop, it's not funny anymore.

This isn't about judging humanity. It's about letting go; accepting the natural progression in which all things must eventually fade away and be transformed into something new.

The ending of FF7 where humanity is gone creates this beautiful new perspective of the planet as a dynamic environment that birthes new ages.

The ending of FF7 where humanity survives is a boring story about a bunch of weirdos who save the day by hitting a bad man with swords.

>"Good guys beat bad guy. Good guys are happy now."
As opposed to
>everyone dies so everything you do in the game is for vain
To me, if humanity survives or not, isn't a huge point. The whole game's theme is man vs. nature and how humanity is dependent on the planet whereas the planet isn't dependent on humanity.
Boiling it down to "accepting death" is a very childish view in my opinion and holds less philosophical value than "what is humanity's role in nature", which is the central theme.

>Boiling it down to "accepting death" is a very childish view in my opinion and holds less philosophical value than "what is humanity's role in nature", which is the central theme.
no

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Help me out Zig Forums. Which version of ff7 should i get, the switch or steam one?

>everyone dies so everything you do in the game is for vain
Only somebody who cares solely about the survival of humanity, rather than the planet as a whole, would say something like that. Bravo you completely turned the message of FF7 on its head: "The planet doesn't matter! Only humans matter!" I guess President Shinra was the true hero of the game for you. Avalanche literally kills people for the sake of the planet. I guess they are the bad guys in your view.
>Boiling it down to "accepting death" is a very childish view in my opinion and holds less philosophical value than "what is humanity's role in nature", which is the central theme.
Shown by what? We have tons of scenes that deal with death and rebirth, whereas I cannot remember a single one about humanity finding its proper place. In fact, if that was the main theme, then the ending sucks ass. A proper ending for that theme would've shown humanity living in harmony with nature. They could've shown the people of Midgar planting trees or some shit instead of Nanaki and his offspring. The young cups of a non-human clearly represent the dawn of a new non-human era, not humanity's place in nature.

Isn't the old saying that the only story worth telling is the human heart in conflict with itself? Obviously that doesn't need to literally be human but the implication is that a story exists as a concept for we humans, the only conscious form of life known to exist, to derive meaning from. I'm having trouble deriving much meaning from the "humanity all dies" ending aside from "mankind is a virus incompatable with nature" which just strikes me as negative and not matching the spirit of the game, though maybe I'm wrong.

I just don't see this cache of meaning in a story where humanity is wiped away so a new species can take over. If there's a new species that develops that doesn't have the same problems humans did (Red XIII's for example) what is interesting about that would be what we, as humans in the real world, can find meaningful or informative about that fictional species.

In my mind things like the Cetra and Red's species exist in the narrative as examples for the flawed humanity to aspire too, which our characters do in the story and seems like the point of the story. We explore the themes of life and death in countless ways that don't require all humans to die, i.e. Aeris. I just think it's no more likely AND a big downer to think that humanity just failed completely and it's time for a new species to try. It don't jive with me.

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Sorry user, they survived.
The game has a sequel, intended or not.
You're playing head canon now.

>I'm having trouble deriving much meaning from the "humanity all dies"
there is reincarnation, and btw humans are not the only sentient form of life on Gaia

The meaning is that human life is temporary. The armageddon anding just pushes the point to the extreme.

It's not about man vs nature. It's about literally "human life is temporary" in the most literal sense

there weren't ghosts in the origin...

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>Avalanche literally kills people for the sake of the planet.
They don't actually, that's sorta the crux of the characterisation for many.

Y-yeah?

> the only conscious form of life known to exist
The position that only human animals have consciousness is untenable. Whatever you take as the mental activity of interest to you, several kinds of animals have all the behavioral and anatomical characteristics associated with it. Moreover, several mammals (apes, pigs, dolphins) display these characteristics at a higher level than very young humans.
So, barring gratuitous racism, one can't claim that a 2-year old has consciousness, while an adult dolphin does not.
The role of language in consciousness is also often overrated in philosophical circles, especially of an analytic bent. The fact is that there are several versions of a neural condition called aphasia which renders a subject unable to understand language, produce language, or both, while affecting no other aspect of their lives.
>I'm having trouble deriving much meaning from the "humanity all dies" ending
See:

This proves that humanity was wiped out in the end how?
You're also creating the whole theme out of two plot points (Aeris' death and the ending) while ignoring everything else that happens in the game (planet's blood used as fuel, the planet fighting back etc.). The whole game revolves around Shinra being the bad guys until Sephiroth is shown to be a more immediate threat to the planet.
>"The planet doesn't matter! Only humans matter!"
I never implied that. They could've shown other places being overrun by nature too to solidify your claim but they didn't. You're basing your whole assumption on one city that was destroyed by a giant rock falling from the sky. You're making stuff up and claiming it canon instead of actually showing evidence.

The stream one

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Can't you just think that the planet AND humans matter?

Personally I think a planet only matters as it serves its population, humans and the rest. "Meaning" is simply a product of a conscious mind, without which value does not exist. Environmentalism makes sense because it's important to take care of the residence of the life here, particularly sentient life. If it was just a dead rock the planet would have no more value then any grain of sand in a desert. It's the life upon it that gives it meaning, as we humans are the sense organs of the universe, in effect. I don't think its an accident that you play as humans in the game, those are the flawed heroes of the tale, and not the Red XIII race or the Cetra or anything else.

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Just played FF7 for the first time myself. Remake is good too. From what I understand, none of it is written by Nomura. What he may have done, though, is visually interpret some of the Planet's more cosmic magical properties in a KH style, but I liked the overall impact on the series going forward.
People are salty about this, and you can't blame them. However, I think the immediate shock has put some heavy-duty blinders on what the game does right, especially combat design, and in my experience, it was great. I say play it when it hits PC, there will probably be a better atmosphere at that time too.

>noooo it's all about environemntalism there is no place for reflecting on the human condition, about loss, about identity, about meaning, about life being temporary
>it's all about environmentalism, it's totally not a plot device to actually talk about life
>I said it's environmentalism, the main theme is just muh TechnoBad vs NatureGood haha game is bad because I don't understand it

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Is anyone here making this argument fampai?

>Shelley only described one statue of Ozymandias beind destroyed. That's not enough evidence to conclude that his empire has fallen!
The implications are clear user. We see the only non-human party member (why arbitrarily focus on him?) with his offspring (clearly representing the dawn of a new era otherwise what's the point of them?) climbing up a hill (rising above) to triumphantly stand over the ruins of a (clearly former) civilization.

The entire scene is completely pointless if all they wanted to show was Midgar being overgrown. If that's all they wanted to show, that's all they would've shown - not Nanaki running pointlessly around with his kids and climbing up a hill.

Noooo you have to prescribe to my specific interpretation of the game's story and if you dont it just means you're stupid

see
Humans do matter in FF7 but the point is that neither individual nor collective human existence is the be-all and end-all of life. Humanity is one chapter in the giant book of life, rather than the book itself.

>muh deep existential overtones
>it's all about accepting that we are temporary and should accept death and loss
>you're just too much of a brainlet to see the deep philosophical questions about life and death in a videogame
No one is saying the game doesn't dabble in loss and death, just that they're not the central themes. The whole quest is about saving the planet and thus saving everything and everyone on it.
>The entire scene is completely pointless if all they wanted to show was Midgar being overgrown. If that's all they wanted to show, that's all they would've shown - not Nanaki running pointlessly around with his kids and climbing up a hill.
Geez, I don't know. Maybe it was made vague because they ran out of development time or budget, or maybe it's because Red was the only cast member who could be alive 500 years later?
You're basing this, yet again, on one destroyed city in the whole world.

You'd be surprised by how often a creative person creates something beloved by many only to screw it up by the next. We have the benefit of a more impartial perspective while it can be difficult for someone in that position to see why people liked their work.

>about life being temporary
the irony

The game put me in such a fucking foul mood at the end of disc 1 I just haven't been able to continue playing after that.

Just to help you understand where others are coming from senpai, that scene also makes sense if you keep in mind the developers were deliberately coy about whether or not humans were going to die due to Holy and chose not to show any real hints until the Red & lads scene. Red isn't human so he's the obvious choice to show him doing something in the ending without tipping their hand as to what their intention was for humanity.

The overrun city of Midgar could represent the destruction of humanity, sure, but it could also just represent a resurgence of life in a formerly desolate place, and the lack of visible humans is the devs just allowing the players space to come to their own interpretation.

>muh existential overtones are not the central themes
escept they are the main idea behind the whole project and environmentalism is just another way of talking about life

Why? The game literally starts after you get out of Midgar.

Disc 1 ends at the City of Ancients, not when you get out of Midgar, user.

>ran out of development time or budget
So you're saying the ending sucks because they couldn't properly show it to us. Ok that's also a possible interpretation. The interpretation that doesn't work is that the ending is both good yet shows us pointless shit for no reason.
>maybe it's because Red was the only cast member who could be alive 500 years later?
We don't need Nanaki to see Midgar overgrown. Lifestream magic could've overgrown the city in seconds and the entire party could've been there to see it. Or we just see an overgrown Midgar and a bunch of people from the future (or nobody). Only showing Nanaki has clear implications and if these weren't the intended implications, then the ending sucks at carrying meaning.
>You're basing this, yet again, on one destroyed city in the whole world.
I'm basing this as the theme of the game. I would come to the same conclusion if they didn't show Midgar or any other city and only showed Nanaki and his cups run around. Of if they ended the game after the flash of white light.

That's intended. I too stopped playing for one day. One day was a lot of time back when I was 13

hey its been 23 years i cant remember
maybe i should play it too

You are supposed to feel like that but if you keep going, at the end, it will be worth it

I'm not going to fight you for making shit up, I'm just going to tell you that you should take it more at face-value. There is no reason to expect humanity is gone.
They literally show you a forested city and Red with babies, nothing else. The compilation is canon, like it or not, and it clearly shows you humans are still there.

>not remembering every plot detail of every 100+ hour RPG in existence

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play ffx

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>FFVII
>100+ hours
I killed Ruby and Emerald, got the Golden Chocobo before the 60 hour mark. I mean, you could grind magic pots to lvl 99, but that's just not required.

That's a dangerous can of worms to open though, depending on the canonicity of Compilation games to make your point about the original.

By that logic you'll be forced to accept whatever nightmare retcons and revisions they pull out of their ass as the Remake death march marches on.

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The important part is putting the thought of humanity's end into people's heads. That's what matters because that's what gives the ending its perspective and message.
We are talking about a fantasy here so I don't really know what else people want to get out of this. Sure you can think to yourself "humans survived" but if you do that, you already at least had the question whether humans survived or not in your head which allows you to take the perspective I described. Once this has happened, what do you gain additionally from the thought that the humans in FF7 survived? It only takes away from the thing you just got from the thought that they were all gone.

>By that logic you'll be forced to accept whatever nightmare retcons and revisions they pull out of their ass as the Remake death march marches on.
Doesn't really matter since it's a sequel. It doesn't change anything that's already released, including the rest of the compilation.
I don't like AC or DoC but I'm not going to be a faggot about them existing.

Say hello to your new party member in part 2

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>humanity getting wiped out by Holy is mentioned once and even then it's just speculation from Bugenhagen's side
Headcanon, user. No proof even without counting in the compilation.

You idiot. Not only , but it is brought up several times (by Barret and even Cait Sith, no less) that they hurt/killed innocent people with their terrorist attacks. You Remake shills didn't even play the original.

I don't have the slightest clue why people care at all about the story if all they want is see events at face-value, as if they carried no meaning for us.
Let's shift the conversation somewhat: Let's say that humans definitely survived in the original. They flat out show humans doing shit in the ending.
My argument is that this ending is worse than an ending where humanity is wiped out for the many reasons I described. I have yet to see an explanation why the ending in which humans survive is better. It's boring and generic.

Did you even read the post you responded to? I said that what's important is thinking about it. So even if it is ambigious, the only value gained from that for the audience is thinking about humanity being destroyed.
Also see:

him geting up and down the elevator just in time to frame barret was possibly the only bad plot in the game

Thankfully, you aren't a writer, because you have abysmal taste in endings. Taste that doesn't affect FFVII, luckily.

You're forgetting everything that had to do with Cait Sith

>opinions are now evidence
You not liking the ending at face value doesn't change the ending. It just means you are adding your own imaginary stuff into it. Maybe you should contemplate some on disappointment and coping.
I didn't go in searching for some deep meaningful philosophy in the game and found none because none exist. You'll see the meaning of life in a fruit when you start to think about it's life cycle but that doesn't mean it's deep, meaningful or deliberate.

You did not just spend however many hours debating some other autist about the ending only to turn around and say you don't care that much

You're not stupid

I pulled an all nighter and this conversation is how I stayed awake. I'm not trying to convert him, I'm just bored.

I dont see the issue, you just don't like the character

I can't wait to see Cait Sith and Yuffie dressed up as reporters in Junon in the Remake.

>I pulled an all nighter
Well that makes two of us at least.
people say you can't become dependent on melatonin, this the first night in a month where I left it alone and here I am haha

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You call it generic, and perhaps it is what you would expect for something like this, but personally I get a lot of meaning out of an ending that reinforces the tried-and-true narratives of the individual being able to make a difference (Cloud & CO. vs the world) and our struggles in the game leading not just the characters we are attached to to peace and happiness, but elevating all of humanity to a higher stage of life through their heroism, in this case meaning to be less materialistic and live less exploitatively and more in harmony with nature. In my mind this is what is implied by the ending showing Midgar consumed by nature and the happy voices of children playing.

I think we both perceive this as a tale about the elevation of life on the planet, just in different ways.

Deep is a meaningless term and there's no point defending something's depth. FFVII is, however, a meaningful game to me because I derive meaning from it. It's one of the games I've spent the most time thinking about since it released.

It's been an interesting talk. I've been wanting to talk to some people more in depth about the meaning of the end of the original since beating the Remake and was glad to be able to do it. Cheers lads.

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>FFVII is, however, a meaningful game to me because I derive meaning from it.
That's personal and has nothing to do with the events of the game happening or not. Some people can see the world in a puddle but that doesn't make the puddle any more or less of a puddle.

>We don't need Nanaki to see Midgar overgrown. Lifestream magic could've overgrown the city in seconds and the entire party could've been there to see it.
What the FUCK would be the point of that?
I never considered the "humans are all dead" theory back when I played it. The message I got from the overgrown Midgar was, after the events of the game, humans abandoned Mako energy and started to live a more harmonious life with the planet, thus showing the abandoned Midgar.
What would be my narrative takeaway from the party just seeing plants and shit growing all over Midgar? Would could that possibly represent from the point of human behaviour?

Are you really trying to argue that FFVII is devoid of intellectual content? Seems like a silly position to take. If you think its overrated, overhyped, overall shallow or something then fair enough, but idk senpai I think you overstating the case.

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I'm not denying it has intellectual content, I'm arguing that there is no other reason to think mankind was wiped out other than Bugenhagen suggesting it while contemplating the planet's will. Even he states that he doesn't know what will happen.

Eh, I'm not on that side either, I just think the ending is left open on purpose, which I think was the right move. Like you said, you think its clearly the case that humanity survived, but peeps in here making a case for the other side, and I think that's all pretty interesting, even if I agree far more with one side than the other.

It's the kind of restraint we absolutely WILL NOT SEE in the remake. Ripperoni.

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>MUH EVIDENCE
So you missed this part:
>Let's say that humans definitely survived in the original.
?
Because I really don't give two shits about in-game """evidence""". I've been talking the entire time about how the ending in which humanity dies fits the theme and that is the only thing I care about. So even if they would've show humanity surviving, I would still argue that an ending with humanity gone would've been far superior.

Dude, if it hadn't been for Nomura, the entire party would have been killed off beyond Cloud and two other party members during the assault on Midgar.

Oh, so the only thing that you got out of the game was that the theme was about death?
>Humanity survives, Shinra is no more and Mako is no longer being used as fuel
This sounds like a more plausible and fitting scenario considering the environmentalist themes that the game throws at you throughout the journey.
You are entitled to your opinions but opinions aren't facts, user. There is no proof that humanity died and the compilation being canon proves you wrong, even if you choose to stick to your headcanon and deny its existence.

It seemed like he was at 2C power level, but maybe he couldn't do any better than 3C because of his personality.

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>but personally I get a lot of meaning out of an ending that reinforces the tried-and-true narratives of the individual being able to make a difference (Cloud & CO. vs the world) and our struggles in the game leading not just the characters we are attached to to peace and happiness
Happiness, you say. Tifa's and Cloud's family are still dead. Aerith, arguagly the love of Cloud's life, is still dead. So if this game is NOT about coming to terms with that, how can our heroes be happy? And if it IS about that, then the ending in which humans survive doesn't add anything to this.
>but elevating all of humanity to a higher stage of life through their heroism, in this case meaning to be less materialistic and live less exploitatively and more in harmony with nature.
To quote my fellow posters ITT:
>HEADCANNON!
>WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!?
Nah just joking. However, it is quite telling that I am asked to support the most obvious interpretation with evidence, whereas nobody who claims that humanity has become more attune with nature in the end is asked to show evidence. According to those people, shouldn't an ending where humanity build Neo Midgar that is twice as large somehwere? I mean, if the interpretation relies on literally what we see with our eyes and not on the symbolism of the things we see, than this interpretation is just as valid as any other.

this, but unironically.

Bro, this interpretation is built on the idea that humanity stops doing shit like building Midgars, as represented by Midgar consumed by nature. All the Neo Midgar shit was more Shinra hubris, obviously that shit wasn't gonna fly. The children's laughter is thought of as another hint that humanity is alive and happy, even though Midgar is gone.
I'm not saying anything is iron clad, but these are the points people are trying to convey.

>This sounds like a more plausible and fitting scenario considering the environmentalist themes that the game throws at you throughout the journey.

>You are entitled to your opinions but opinions aren't facts, user.
None of this shit is factual. It's a fantasy. I can say "actually, there are no humans or animals in FF7 at all! They are all robots who only look like humans and animals and these robots! The lifestream doesn't exist. It's just a hologram! Meteor also was just a hologram and all other magic as well! YOU CANNOT DISPROVE THAT!" Sure, a good argument against this is that it makes no sense in the context of the story of this game, but that's "just an opinion". I really don't understand you people who apparently want to argue about the events in FF7 as if they were real.
>This sounds like a more plausible and fitting scenario considering the environmentalist themes that the game throws at you throughout the journey.
I don't remember a single scene which alluded to this at all.

That would've been pretty cool honestly. Any story that has the characters putting their lives on the line fighting get a bit boring and feel like there are no real stakes if all the good guys always make it out okay. Of course this isn't really the case for FF7 since a major character actually does die, but just looking at JRPGs/shounen stuff in general.

>Bro, this interpretation is built on the idea that humanity stops doing shit like building Midgars, as represented by Midgar consumed by nature.
Not evidence.
>All the Neo Midgar shit was more Shinra hubris, obviously that shit wasn't gonna fly.
Not evidence.
>The children's laughter is thought of as another hint that humanity is alive and happy, even though Midgar is gone.
The (probably non-diegetic) laughter of children is also not evidence. The kids laughing could be the kids of rich CEOs of Neo-Shinra who are having fun setting Chocobo chicks on fire.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm going with what the game shows and tells you. You're the one throwing around wild theories about everyone dying without any semblance of reason as to why other than "because I feel like it".

He was intimidating because the first time you're properly introduced to him he bodies a dragon in one swing. You can literally look at his stats and all his mastered materia in game, he was buff as fuck. Post flashback you immediately get the Midgar Zolom scene, a monster you HAVE to avoid via chocobo because he will fucking kill you if you go on foot, but Sephiroth(or Jenova using Sephiroth's appearance to travel) not only kills the beastie, but impales the thing on a tree. There's build up to him, in all the post FF7 material he's fucking everywhere, the mystery is gone and there is no building up him as a big bad because his reputation in the real world carries over into the writing of subsequent material. There is no mystery anymore and the later material makes no effort to try to recreate the original's mystery surrounding the character. The remake had the perfect opportunity to redo this entire arc to reestablish the character for newcomers and they fuck it up horribly almost immediately, they do the same shit with Jenova.

>without any semblance of reason as to why other than "because I feel like it".
I described in my posts how the symbolism of what we see and the themes of the game all point into one direction but I am told that this isn't good enough because "EVIDENCE!"

So if we go striclty by the evidence of what happens in game, not its narrative implications, then Neo-Shinra or any other bullshit one can come up with is just as likely as the ending in which humans have changed their ways.

Fuck Nomura. FF7 could've been twice as good without him. The character designs also wouldn't have belts needlessly added.

I want to stress that real world knowlede does NOT invalidate the buildup. Everyone had already seen images of Sephiroth on magazines and promo material back in 1997 and the buildup still worked.

I will go as far as to say that having SOME info about him but not the complete picture makes the whole "JAWS" introduction even MORE powerful. not less powerful.

They decided to throw it into the trash and that's incompetence.

People who say that buildup no longer works when you already seen it ones are retards. People can watch movies like Jaws, Alien, Usual Suspects or Blade Runner many times and they still work. In fact, I replayed FF7 several times and the buildup still works.

It's retards who think that spoilers literally destroy the effects of building up to something. When I was young, we talked about what happened in movies and video games all the time and it didn't ruin them for us.

Post Mideel Cloud only really got any characterization in the submarine arc, everything before or after that really doesn't go into it.

>then Neo-Shinra or any other bullshit one can come up with is just as likely as the ending in which humans have changed their ways.
You're assuming something will take Shinra's place while I'm more on-board with
>Shinra is the only faction that makes Mako energy
>No Shinra, no Mako
because there is no reason to think that anyone else would produce Mako.
You not being able to prove your theory with anything but symbolism just means that you are making stuff up. The end implies that the planet is no longer being raped, which accompanies the environmentalist themes more than your edgy life philosophies that you find in vidya.
It's a 90's product with environmentalism as its main viewpoint in a time when technology was taking huge strides while the Earth was being deforested and de-oiled.

Absolutely worth it, the game is a near masterpiece for 95% of it even with its flawed ending

>This is because zack isn't with him in the remake, future sephiroth is.
Nice headcanon, but wrong. I mean the part with Sephiroth (not future Sephiroth, just current Sephiroth with some vague glimpses of what "destiny" has in store) being the cause for killer Cloud might be true because he puts Cloud on edge and makes him aggressive every time he appears to Cloud. The part about Zack is false though, IIRC interviews and Ultimania confirm the "inner voice" to always be Cloud himself, his real self, though I wouldn't be surprised if the remake slightly changes that "inner Cloud" from being his "subconscious" to actually "another Cloud" of some sort.

>You not being able to prove your theory with anything but symbolism
>The end implies
Good job contradicting yourself, fag. So again "Where is the evidence!?!?!?!" Forests existed in a world with Shinra as well. The future we see could be one where there is this one green place on earth left and the rest of the entire world is one giant Midgar mega city that sucks the planet dry. You think differently? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!? Every bullshit people can come up with is equally likely if we completely ignore the narrative implications and themes of the game.

I still find it hilarious that Hojo just left the recordings there intact instead of either destroying them or taking them along, also the fact that somehow the recordings were left there for over 20 years.

This is the most brainlet complaint. Avalanche is still responsible, do you think Shinra was planning on blowing up the reactor anyway? Does Avalanche secretly work for them? No. Shinra makes the explosion greater to turn the public against Avalanche, but the aftermath of the explosions is a direct cause of them bombing the reactor in the first place. Avalanche is fighting a war the average Midgar citizen never asked for and the average Midgar citizen is still the casualty of that war. The Remake makes Shinra more evil, but it doesn't take away from Avalanche endangering innocent lives to do something they believe in.

13 SEPHIROTHS
ORE
WATASHI
ZACH IS ALIVE
2 CLOUDS
TIME JANITORS
GACKT LASHLEY CHADLEY

what the fuck is there problems man?

I still want to see flahbacks of Hojo, Gast and Bugenhagen arguing about stuff.

When is Genesis going to appear?

they divorced allegedly and gackt hates nomura now anons said.

>The future we see could be one where there is this one green place on earth left and the rest of the entire world is one giant Midgar mega city that sucks the planet dry.
Just the greenery of Midgar proves this isn't the case. I'm taking logical steps in my conclusion not based on my personal preferences, but by what the game tells us. The game ends with Midgar's destruction, which means all the Midgar reactors are destroyed as well. There are other reactors in Junon, Corel, Nibel and Fort Condor but they were under Shinra's control so it's logical that they were shut down since Shinra is no more.
This is logical thinking while your only argument is literally "the game made me feel this way". There is a difference between things having consequences and symbolism.

The planet didn't outright kill them, but Meteor defeated Holy and the Lifestream was gathering to try to survive like Sephiroth anticipated. Life on the planet in general wasn't ended, but most of it likely died, creating a sort of "second generation" of the prior world nearly ending to keep some life intact. Cloud's generation went the way of the Cetra, and Sephiroth figuratively was the Jenova of the era.

FF7 would've been an entirely different game without him. He rewrote the entire initial plot with Kitase. The chasing Sephiroth theme was his idea, as well as Aeris dying. FF7 wouldn't have been FF7.

But FF7 didn't have belt in weird places. Og ff7 designs made by Nomura were kino

Fuck off newfag. Since when do we "rely" on the media, the very "game journalists" we always make fun of?

What will they even do for Supernova? Unless it's still the ceiling to all this absurdity, they'll have to scale it up to the point where it could only be laughable to the players when it's supposed to still be serious for the characters.

>People can watch movies like Jaws, Alien, Usual Suspects or Blade Runner many times and they still work.
We call that nostalgia. Your brain "remembers" the original feeling you had when you first saw it. But this wouldn't work quite the same for a remake for those who have seen the original. Why? Because in your mind, immidetly the "SOUL/SOULLESS" comparison will kick in and you'll find the differences in graphics distracting. The characters not having the same polygon/anime look will make you believe that "the realism killed it".
Not to mention the camera work. In the OG you saw only dilluted field models or far-away shots of in-battle Sephiroth. The only "good view" of Sephiroth you get in the Niebelheim flashback is the "Sephiroth walking away into the fire" FMV, which makes a big impact on the audience. But in the remake you'd have to fuck around with the camera in extremely weird ways to achieve anywhere the same effect to delay the "good luck" up until the FMV scene, meaning you literally cannot reproduce the same introduction of Sephiroth in the remake. Because, yes, the field and battle graphics are just too good that they can't make a contrast to the CGI cutscenes. Infact many people say that the ingame characters look better than their CGI counterparts.

Humanity did survive, Midgar destroyed is symbolic as it was a bastion of technology and abusing planet energy

>Just the greenery of Midgar proves this isn't the case.
No it doesn't. There is greenery in Gaia when Midgar is still intact. There are still forests in that world. So nothing contradicts Neo Midgar or an alien invasion or whatever other nonsense there is no evidence to disprove.
>which means all the Midgar reactors are destroyed as well. There are other reactors in Junon, Corel, Nibel and Fort Condor but they were under Shinra's control so it's logical that they were shut down since Shinra is no more.
Your assumptions aren't evidence. It's not what the game shows us. It's what you believe. Shinra could've rebuild a billion more reactors. Ohr another company called Fagra could've done it.
>This is logical thinking while your only argument is literally "the game made me feel this way".
"Herp derp symbolism doesn't count yet I use overgrown midgar's symbolism to support my conclusion". Wow what a giant retard.
>There is a difference between things having consequences and symbolism.
Things have no consequence in fantasy land. Everybody can make up whatever bullshit they want and it is all equally likely in fantasy land because fantasy land isn't real. It's all make believe that only serves the prupose of transporting themes and messages. You ignore themes and messages so all you have is random bullshit that is all equally valid because it all exists in fantasy land. I can claim that everybody in FF7 are robots and all magic is a hologram and you cannot disprove it. You could say "that's retarded because it makes no sense in the context of the message the story is trying to get across" but you're not approaching media like that. You approach media with "HERP DERP EVIDENCE!"

That's why if you make it faithful to the original then it triggers the "Soul" response and people will love it. Just like how the part's in FF7R that where 1:1 to the original where the only good parts dispute being less then 1/10 of the final product leaving the remaining 90% to be soulless trash and shimming though corridors in order to mask load times.

Yeah it would've been better. Show me a single Nomura-directed game that doesn't have a bullshit story. The man is a complete talentless clown.
Yuffie has tons of pointless belts all over.

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Bugenhagen says that the planet is dying and probably can't be saved even if all the reactors are shut down and Sephiroth is stopped. The ending is clearly showing that against all odds stopping those things worked and the planet lives on. There are no more reactors, it just wouldn't make sense. The game provides all the context it needs to so that we understand this.

So Ff7 heaven mod doesn't work on pirated copies

How do I play this shit game now?

>We call that nostalgia.
Not him but I watched blade runner only after the sequel came out.
It was a great money and since then I have watched it three times.

It's not nostalgia retard. The nostalgia argument is so incredibly stupid I can't believe there are still morons like you spouting this nonsense.

Still no evidence. Bugenhagen was simply wrong and everything worked out fine. Shinra also made better reactors that kill the planet less fast.

>Sephiroth killing Aerith
Sephiroth doesn't kill Aerith.

Sephiroth kills Aeris.

I mean, it's the same for Cloud.

There are legitimate cases of pointless belts but every belt in your picture serves a purpose and is holding something up.

No? Or is that the single moment he leaves the lifestream in the whole game or what?

He gets his Buster wet with Tifa

what? really? I just bought the PC version of game for $5 today because I wanted to check out the 7th Heaven mod loader

I'm glad they softened the moral complexity. The gang isn't as cool when you realize it's an Al Qaeda sim.

He kills her via proxy. The clones are controlled by him.

>autistic pedantry
Sephiroth controlling clones that take on his form is still technically Sephiroth doing the killing even if it's by proxy.

>user had almost the same response as I did
Oh shit am I turning into an NPC?

But it's not a clone. It's a part of Jenova it even turns into either BIRTH or LIFE (I don't remember which one) right after.
I thought Jenova sephiroth was something different from the clones.

barkerinos?

Those are just monsters. in the remake they reconnected them into actual lifestream ghosts.
Does the lifestream even do what it's supposed to anymore in the remake has it just been turned into a time travel copout?

I was more pissed I lost great gospel

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Play it without mods or just buy the game

I've always wondered about that, when you defeat a human do you simply KO them (like you are when you are defeated before getting a phoenix down) or are they just killed?

Fuck the planet

I just played through that part two days ago and I am not autistic enough to pick up on any of that nuance. You do fight a Jenova spawn but I thought that was just left behind by Sepheroth.

That Sephiroth is a Jenova. Just like the one prior to "last boss" is Jenova too. Here's a list of clones.
finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sephiroth_Clone
Whether Sephiroth has direct control of Jenova, I don't know. But her natural instinct is to kill Cetras. So her killing Aerith of her own accord isn't all that weird.

But come to think of it aren't all clones a part of Jenova because they where built with Jenova DNA?

In a sense, yes. That's why I think they share senses at times. But they don't transform into monsters. They are just enhanced in some way.

I wasn't arguing against them killing people, but a core part of their stories is how none of them were doing it "for the planet". They were doing it for themselves.

>Fuck the planet
With that attitude, you should play the remake and forget about original FF7.

I never doubted that humanity survived for a really simple reason. If the Lifestream had done a massive search and destroy on humanity that day then how did Red survive being stuck in the Highwind with no one to pilot?

He could have survived a potential crash.

brainlet here who only played ff7r, got two questions
-who long the original game was? if you would cut it into sections like midgar part, how many sections are they.
-So they managed to evacuate some people in the slums before the plate of sector 7 falls. That is good and all but what about the people living ABOVE the plate? are those the 50k that dude mentioned? Is the plate underconstruction or does it have those 50k

For the discussion that's been going on for a few hours, I want to get your opinions on something. Do you believe that the Lifestream actively killed humanity, or do you think that humanity simply died off/was sent back to the stone age due to the cataclysmic result of the Lifestream having to fight Meteor?

Nanaki survived because Holy only destroyed humans. It's literally a magic spell.

I love how people who say that humanity survived always use arguments about superficial aspects of the story, such as "how did it logistically happen?" You people clearly don't care about what the story actually says, its themes and ideas, the questions and problems that it is wrestling with.

In the end, we see the only non-human party member (why arbitrarily focus on him?) with his offspring (clearly representing the dawn of a new era otherwise what's the point of them?) climbing up a hill (rising above) to triumphantly stand over the ruins of a (clearly former) civilization.

The entire scene is completely pointless if all they wanted to show was Midgar being overgrown. If that's all they wanted to show, that's all they would've shown - not Nanaki running pointlessly around with his kids and climbing up a hill.

Holy destroyed humanity.

Holy got pierced by Meteor, it was the Lifestream that saved the day.

You can hear kids laughing in the final scene.

Overlooking a plothole seems more believable to me than deliberately putting complete pointless garbage at the end of your game.

And? Is it written somewhere that Holy stops having effect when a meteor gets passed it due to being too close to earth?
It doesn't matter one way or the other though.

This. Even as a kid, my thoughts were... "Well. I guess everyone just said "Fuck Midgar, that place is cursed" and just pissed off to places like Wutai and Kalm. There's nothing to even indicate humans died. Why would you want to stay in a place that had various terrorist bombings, was the focal point of multiple massively destructive events, and seemed to be a magnet for crazy fucks who want to kill the planet?

You'd get the fuck out of there. Why do you think half of Detroit looks like Robocop Detroit now?

That can easily be symbolic, and Red XIII's people can speak too.

see

>cloud: shinra's lying about the reactor to make avalanche look bad.
>tifa: so it wasnt that bad?
>cloud: no.. it was.

Holy was basically defeated. Whatever happened in the ending occurred because of the Lifestream itself.

Sure, makes sense when you approach stories with the mindset of a child and don't waste a single though on what the story was about.

But perhaps all of you are correct after all considering that most of the devs were giant retards. FF7 could be one of the dumbest stories ever told that by accident appeared to be more clever than it actually was.

This is probably the first time I hear that humanity died out in FF7 considering AC happened.
Am I missing something?

Jenova killed Aeris in the form of Sephiroth, he is still frozen at Northern crater.
The masonic gateway chess floor tiles in the scene were not an accident, Clouds head is full of fuck until AFTER the lifestream scenes, from the beginning after Zack died
[/23 year old game]

And without delving too much into mind control symbolism, it represents a gateway because cloud is in a trance, en trance entrance... remember he almost went to kill her himself and stopped.

>Let me explain to you how magic in a fictional world works
Thanks for lecture, Mr. Magician. To reiterate: It doesn't matter one way or the other though.

holy was working but it was also "judging the unworthy" as per bugenhagen's prediction

>considering AC happened
AC didn't happen in FF7.

Holy -was- the lifestream fighting back.
Aeris summoned the weapons, and in the end the planet itself. Lets ignore omega in dirge for now.

White materia, black materia.

>AC didn't happen in FF7
I never claimed it happened "in" FF7, it happens after.

It was clearly meant to be open to interpretation but AC shits on that

>Aeris summoned the weapons
Love how everything the planet does after Aerith death is attributed to her just because we saw her face once in the end, implying that she is part of the lifestream (like everybody else).

No it doesn't. Humanity doesn't die off immediately. You can already see the decay in AC. It's not a very bright future, is it? The death of humanity has already begun in AC.

Its just a fairytale its not politics
Stop playing western games

>The death of humanity has already begun in AC.
It's kind of weird when the lifestream decides to heal the sick if I remember correctly.
Some bullshit happened at the end of it at least.

Then it doesn't matter for the ending of FF7. It's a piece of shit cashgrab that does whatever it wants.
>Oh the retarded fans want more Cloud and Tifa and Cid and Barrett? Then lets make a sequel. Didn't we have that ambigious ending that only makes sense if humans were destroyed? Doesn't matter! Just retcon it for money

they retconned it from "holy judged and destroyed midgar" which you can extrapolate from the material in ff7 as a standalone to "sephiroth infected the lifestream with geostigma" once it became a compilation

I think that "and they all died! :)" as an ending is absolute suicide, from a storytelling standpoint. Even the most controversial storytelling in Japanese culture doesn't go THAT far with "bleak future" shit.

Holy wasn't working, Meteor clearly broke through it. The cast noted that it was losing and Meteor wasn't slowing down.

Holy and the Lifestream are shown to be separate things all throughout the ending. We see red, blue, and green existing separately, with the green overtaking virtually everything before the gigantic flash.

I think it's more you being a little emotional because they wanted to do something more with FF7. I'm not saying AC is good, but I don't think you should disregard it just "because".
I also don't see why humanity must have been died out just because Midgar is in ruin. We have several places like that in the real world, not as big, but towns people left.
They may very well just have moved because Midgar was basically destroyed. Final scene could even be interpreted as "people left midgar and its reactors to be thing of the past".

>holy destroyed humanity
No, it stopped the reactors aka modern industry, midgar shown covered in grass and red at the end was ambiguous as to the fate of mankind itself.

The context there being the entire plot being a jab at nuclear power. Because Square are Japanese. And not wrong.

The only alternative is that humans survived and they showed us Nanaki running around with his kids for no particular reason. Just "lol ok let's randomly pick him and...he randomly has kids now. Doesn't mean anything. And they howl while looking at the ruins of Midgard also for no reason and then we show some wild geese or some shit flying toward the horizon also for no reason lol".

Either we think that the age of humanity ended and was replaced by a new age which fits perfectly the game's theme of death and rebirth, or we think that humans survived and the ending is random garbage and one of the worst ending in video game history.

>Just "lol ok let's randomly pick him and...he randomly has kids now
I don't remember how long those lions lives, but I doubt it was for over 500 years.

>I also don't see why humanity must have been died out just because Midgar is in ruin. We have several places like that in the real world, not as big, but towns people left.
You clearly don't even attempt to see where I am coming from when you're still throwing in-universe rationalizations at me as if I gave a single shit about them. I think of the ending the way I do because of the underlying themes, not because of the fucking logistics of a fantasy world.

>as if I gave a single shit about them
Okay, I'm sorry. I won't talk to you then.

And? They showed them to us to illustrate their long lifespan? Wow brilliant writing! 10/10!

the line is "its too late for holy" and "holy is having the opposite effect"

>2 CLOUDS
?

>The context there being the entire plot being a jab at nuclear power
exxon shills please go

Two everything. There are parralel dimensions or two timelines going on. That's why we see two different dog breeds on the cover.

My point was, it was probably not Nanaki but a descendant of him. Or you know, showing that the world survived since the ending cuts out before the end credits with just Aerith being shown.

>holy judged and destroyed midgar
Midgar was abandoned not destroyed though.

Good. That shit is "could Goku beat Superman?"-tier.

kek

I see, I haven't fully seen Remake yet

How does it make that better? It's even worth if they just picked a random descendant for, again, zero reason.
>showing that the world survived
"In order to show that the world survived, we need to make an old lion and two kid lions climb rocks and look at the ruins of a city." Wow brilliant writing! 20/10!

I mean...they are REACTORS.
I don't think i'm retarded enough for this board.

guys FFS the ending of FF7 is left open to interpretation ON PURPOSE.
Stop arguing about it.
There is no answer.

There

is

no

Answer

It has nothing to do with writing. It's just their way to show a nice scene at the end as a closure. I haven't once said it was good writing or not.
I think you're mixing me up with someone else.

oh got it. do you think it being abandoned had anything to do with it being destroyed in the immediately preceding cutscene

I'm pretty sure advent children is the answer.

Shit. You can legit make the "Sephiroth is Hojo's kid" comparison with that right picture.

no i think you're plenty retarded. the shinra plot tis a pretty explicit a critique of the social and environmental repercussions of the unchecked pursuit of capital. there's not any point where they're like ah jeez if only we used coal instead of mako - which is a natural resource btw - then we'd all be totally fine

>It has nothing to do with writing.
Yeah if your interpretation is correct, then it sure doesn't.
>It's just their way to show a nice scene
So they just threw a pretty picture at us that carries zero meaning. BRILLIANT!
This version of FF7 you people are pitching me has a chimp brained story. Considering that Nomura was involved, it's very possible that this is actually FF7's true story I am just now learning about.

Only if you make it retroactively canon to FFVII but it's not

>So they just threw a pretty picture at us that carries zero meaning
It does have meaning. But it is fine to not like FF7. I'm not a super fan of it either.

Don't waste your breath, friend. The people ITT don't perceive stories as having a deeper meaning or a message. To them, the story of FF7 is at its core not about us but about fantasy people inhabiting a fantasy land.

Why is it so hard to find a good pirated copy of FF7? I can't find a source that doesn't scream virus on first glance.

>AC is not canon

So you're just going to ignore the mutated people in the vats? Sounds about right.

>It does have meaning.
You just said that it has nothing to do with writing and now it carries meaning? Make up your mind.
>it is fine to not like FF7
Yeah I like stories that actually have a core plot and themes and aren't just about random shit that happens in-universe, with no message, meaning or relation to anything beyond the surface-level-storytelling.

Writing and meaning aren't synonymous. But that can be a whole argument by itself based on your emotional outburst.
>Yeah I like stories that actually have a core plot and themes and aren't
I don't know why you're telling me this, but okay? Like I said, I'm not exactly a super fan of FF7 either. So you're basically just saying "I have the same opinion about the game as you". Congratulations.

do you mean the ones who the game tells you were mutated by jenova cell experimentation or the ones that the player are meant to decide on their own are mutated as a result of exposure to nuclear power

So are you really this obtuse or are you pretending.
Perhaps you need to go back here: and re-read the conversation from there?

It's no wonder that you don't like FF7's story because you approach it on the most boring surface level possible. PERHAPS this is all the writers intended, in which case FF7 truly is pure garbage and only looks more interesting than it is by accident, however considering how consistent many of the themes are in the game, I highly doubt that.

Holy was utterly ineffective and even just getting pushed back on the planet. We don't see Holy actively trying to destroy things alongside Meteor.

>and re-read the conversation from there?
That's not me if that's what you're implying.

If you participate in a conversation, you should be clear what it was about regardless of who you are.

I replied to one point which I disagreed with. If that hurts your emotions so much, that's not my problem.

You replied without understanding the point that was made. That's why you're confused now.

So... what was your issue with me mentioning it probably wasn't Nanaki that made you shit your pants?

Is there any point to doing the bike stages on hard? Any rewards? Trophies?

Here's an idea for the discussion: Would it be viable if humanity was instead mostly killed, with a few survivors a la the initial Jenova incident, and beings like Red XIII's people became the new dominant species?

As I replied to you: "And?" It doesn't address the point I was making. It doesn't add or contradict anything substantial.
So if that was literally all you wanted to say, then your next response should've been "oh nothing. I didn't try to make a point. I was just randomly saying something about Nanaki which I wasn't even sure about because you happened to mention him."

What do you mean by "viable"? In universe, everything is viable. With regard to the message, I have no idea what the point is supposed to be.

Basically, could both sides agree that it might be an acceptable interpretation of the ending? Humanity falls to tiny, atavistic numbers while another race/species rises to be dominant, like what happened to the Cetra after Jenova first landed.

user, I have no idea what you're trying to convey and I don't think anyone here really understands where you're going, which is probably why no one else is responding to you.
You want people to say things you want to hear. That's all I can gather from your post. Otherwise, you just start acting like I friend I have whom you very well might be.

Not him, but maybe? AC already had the sickness slowly killing people before they were healed, so that may very well be a possibility to argue around. Anything could happen.

THere's a difference between being an insane psychopath who goes on a rapnpage. And a psycho who probably dissects people for shits. The former is hot, the latter is not

I argued in favor of humanity's destruction because it fits the death/rebirth theme and offers a meaningful interpretation of the Nanaki scene.

My opponents have so far argued on the basis of in-universe events, such as Nanaki survivng despite being on Highwind, the laughter of children, a destroyed Midgar not being "enough evidence"

Both sides have essentially talked past each other, me being interested in meaningful storytelling, whereas the other sides treats the ending like a crime scene and plays detective in order to solve it.

I don't see how your suggestion changes this or fits either side. It doesn't fit the message I am talking about, nor is there in game "evidence" for it.

>user, I have no idea what you're trying to convey
Obviously. Hence why I gave you this advice:

And if I don't, would it kill you?

>the laughter of children
What laughter of children?

Could we please stop conflating AC and 7? We were strictly speaking about 7. If we talk about the compilation as a whole, then there is no question that the story is complete garbage.

It would waste everybody's time just like what is happening now.
The very last thing you hear at the end is kids laughing. I believe it's non-diegetic laughter, but the others use it as evidence that humans survived (because it sounds like human children). Others have argued that it could be the kids of Nanaki who laugh since they can talk like humans, but I find that even more unlikely than it being diegetic laughter of human children.

Hojo would've been a much more appealing villain if he was actually good looking

Man the Ninostyle models, Chibi field & Battle and the Qhimm Battle Textures really are top notch. The AI upscale Field textures aren't that mind blowing but seeing all the hard work pored into the Modding of the Original really makes you wonder why Square ever bothered with the soulless cash grab that is FF7R.

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>why Square ever bothered with the soulless cash grab that is FF7R.
>cash grab
there is your answer

We already have enough QTs in the game. They made Seph far too pretty. He doesn't look threatening to me. He looks like a boy I want to suck off.

>being diegetic laughter of human children
I think you meant non-diegetic like the first time you said it. I had completely forgotten about that sound.

If anything, a 1:1 remake would've been the cash grab. Like it or not, this Remake took far more effort. You may not like the story, but it's far from a cash grab. If they just upscaled shit, it would definitely be a cash grab.

>Hojo would've been a much more appealing villain if he was actually good looking
Hojo is a great villain to me just because he looks exactly how he acts. Like a creep.

Cloud wasn't cool, he was a wheelchair bound autistic retard, he was fat as a kid, basically eric cartman, everyone hated him, zack was cool, cloud was gay, and tifa is also retarded, but in an endearing way, and red xiii should've gotten to rape aeris. shitty game.

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I said that the most likely thing for is it being non-diegitic, the second likeliest is it being diegetic laughter of human children and the least likely is it being diegetic laughter of Nanaki's children.

Where the fuck is Cid

>just finished it for the first time
>called Aeries Aerith
Poser

Nomura must be stopped. He'll destroy this franchise if he's allowed complete reign over it.

>diegetic
Am I misremembering what this means? Diegetic means the laughter has a source on screen while non-diegetic doesn't. Like someone talking offscreen or in this case, sound on a black screen or the soundtrack.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

False, the 1:1 remake would be too much work. By taking the first 5 hours and stretching it into 30+ hour game they can reuse the same enemies and assets. Hell the game currently is almost 100gb, now imagine if it was actually a 1:1 remake with the same graphic fidelity. We are talking a game that easily could be half a Tera bite. Over 90% of the "remake" is soulless NPC, padding and side quest. The 10% that is good is great, but the rest of FF7R is phoned in trash.

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>Nomura is a demon that will consume the world.
what if he is the true final boss?

Nah, shoving in the cliffhanger for no reason is clearly the most blatant cash grab.

They could've told a different story that makes meaningful changes. THAT would've required effort. But they didn't do that. Instead they left most of the story the same and only shoved in a giant "WHAT WILL HAPPEN? TUNE IN NEXT TIME TO FIND OUT!" at the end to make people buy the sequel.

This is why episodic games suck. They have lackluster shit and pointless surprises to try and keep you on edge for next time. Episodic games were and still are nothing more than a company move to extract more money for no extra value. There will always be time wasting shit, elongated/pointless filler plot threads that detract from the story and desperate cliffhangers to get you to come back next time. And they do it because people fall for it so easily. It's the next step towards turning games into TV programs.

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yes

...

You are correct. Where is the misunderstanding.

I am thinking that it is non-diegetic. (1) That it is a sound added just like the music in order to envoke certain emotions. It is not part of the scene we just saw. Others argue that there (2) actually are human children. We do not see them, but they are there (perhaps they come running up to Nanaki when the camera already faded to black or some shit). Others still argue that we hear (3) the cups of Nanaki we saw in the scene.

I think 1 is more likely than 2 and 2 is more likely than 3.

>likeliest is it being diegetic laughter of human children and the least likely is it being diegetic laughter of Nanaki's children
This part was what made me confused, because the laughter would nonetheless be non-diegetic since we don't know the source let alone see anything on the screen.
That's why I thought I misunderstood the meaning.

And a game that big is simply not going to happen with current technology, ever. Just because they didn't make a game that's far larger than anything ever created doesn't make it a cash grab. It'll reach that point eventually, but not in a single game.

Jump to 8:05
youtube.com/watch?v=8Qlf3b9wa4s