Why are they trying to make us hate him?
If i had the choice between saving my child and saving all of humanity, i would choose the former every time.
Why are they trying to make us hate him?
Leo Richardson
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Joshua Price
yeah I don't get it
if he sacc ellie to save humanity doesn't it complete the new testament symbolism?
the jews really hate themselves
Nicholas Clark
>masculine
>cool
>huwite
Jackson Thompson
theyre not. theyre trying to show you how somebody else in this world could hate him for his actions.
Camden Johnson
I already hated him.
Colton Rivera
Thats like a family member of the henchman from Austin Powers coming back to take revenge. I mean you go around killing hundreds of people and are expected to feel guilty for killing one because of feelings?
Benjamin Thomas
You know, so many people wholeheartedly agreeing with joel's decision helps explain how sociopathic the response to the sequel is.
Cooper Robinson
and if she wanted to die?
Eli Fisher
Literally just don't breathe the fucking spores. Why does a little girl need to die so a bunch of fucking idiots can go breathe clicker fart?
Aiden Adams
Its funny how a group that pushes for womens free choice would have a young girl given a life threatening surgery without her permission.
sacricing the individual for the sake of the group. its tribalism.
Parker Russell
I would be fine is she woke up and was given the decision. It might have given the ending more weight when Joel decides to lie to her.
Jose Johnson
how to explain sending a pregnant female to the battlfield
Carson Walker
This. If the fireflies had at least given them enough time to think the decision over, all this wouldn't even be an issue.
Gavin Howard
It's a really shitty attempt to pull the totally not overdone "revenge begets revenge" trope.
Except it doesn't work because Joel didn't kill the doctors at the end of the first game for revenge. He killed them to save Ellie. Not that Cuckmann has the brain capacity to understand the difference between revenge and rescue.
Justin Roberts
If you think they're trying to make us hate him them you completely missed the point of the game.
Grayson Davis
>sociopathic
>joel
>the guy who chose to "save" someone that isn't his real daughter that actually wanted to sacrifice herself for a potential cure bc she'd seen the senseless violence and death, at the age of 14 realized that if she possessed the only means to end it, that path would be worth taking not just for herself to live on as a messiah figure but for billions of people against a virus that would eventually mean the extinction of mankind
>joel
>kill a bunch of doctors bc he didn't want to lose his replacement daughter
>wholly self interested act since not even his pseudo daughter wanted this outcome
Why are they trying to make us hate him? They're not. They want you to understand he made the selfish decision at the expense of everything else happening. He's still very sympathetic because we can all understand his choice though it was also the wrong one.
>i'd condemn all of humanity to save my kid
Yep, that's why the world is fucked up today. That's not moral. That's just acting towards your blatant self-interest despite what's going on around you to everyone else.
Julian Thompson
Gameplay is a 7/10 that gets dropped to a 6 because it's way too fucking long and doesn't evolve at all, borderline tempted to drop it to a 5 because realistically they did almost nothing to change it from the first
Visuals are amazing, nobody is arguing this, and they shouldn't be.
I was actually enjoying some of the story at parts, but it was always fucked up by the next 'big event', It's not even about Joel dying, anyone with half a brain knew they would go that route the second they announced a sequel. Overall, a 5/10, the nuts and bolts are just too good to rate it lower, but it's flawed as fuck and a blemish on the legacy of the original.
Jason Perry
They needed a way for us to bond over her so we would cry when she died
Joshua Myers
The problem is that sacrificing her wasnt guaranteed to save humanity at all. And even then, would Joel even be happy after the only person he cared about was gone?
Caleb Gomez
Because he's a white male and they have to crush the patriarchy
Samuel Thompson
Shutup nigger
Brody Peterson
>The entire game glosses over the fact the fireflies were shown to be absurdly uselessly and that there was no guarantee for the cure at all, and in fact was very unlikely, even goes out of its way to say 'he was da only gud boi that coulda made one and he's deeeeead'
They're unironically angry they made a genuinely morally ambiguous ending and tried to 'fix' it.
Landon Bailey
I don't understand why Zig Forums has had a bunch of threads and posters constantly complain about how TLOU2 demonizes Joel and that Druckmann hates the character.
If anything, I have a deeper appreciation for Joel after seeing him try his best to be an actual father and open up to Ellie after the end of the first game.
Joshua Gomez
You could have made Abby a sympathetic character too whilst being someone who manipulates her enemies for a greater goal. Korean revenge movies have done that for years. Instead, it is presented so one sided that you end up caring for nobody.
Caleb Collins
They didn't succeed. Nobody hates Joel. He's still the best person in this series and made objectively the right choice. The Fireflies were evil and stupid, they were never going to make a cure (lmao @ them for even thinking you can "cure" turning into a mushroom monster), so Ellie would have died for nothing. Abby's dad seemed like a decent guy, but he was a naive idealist clinging to a pipedream and nothing more. Joel never would have even shot him had he not tried to fight Joel to stop him, so that's on him for choosing a cause over the pragmatic and realistic choice of living for his daughter and not taking that for granted. This is clearly illustrated in Abby's flashback where he's spending his time in the zoo trying to take care of the animals still. Is it kind and compassionate of him? Yes, of course. Is it also ultimately a waste of time given their circumstances? Also yes. It shows he's too caught up in high minded ideals to see that nature doesn't need a babysitter and he's squandering what time he does have doing the equivalent of trying to catch rainwater with a net. Joel already knew the value of what he had and he refused to lose it again. The entire story of the game is that Ellie had to learn this lesson the hard way too because she was taking Joel and her life for granted just the same.
Kevin Morgan
>why are they trying to make us hate a member of the oppressor-race
hmmmm
Christopher Lewis
>seeing Joel open up
just like his skull lmao
Jonathan Jenkins
Calm down, it's bait
Carter Mitchell
She literally asked to be killed
Isaac Peterson
The game is libshit. It assumes you value the lives of the unwashed masses over those of yourself, your family and your loved ones. An inherently liberal value. If you don’t hold that value then you won’t enjoy the game.
Aaron Cooper
The Fireflies could not have done anything about the situation
Logan Anderson
the thing was that the ending felt vague and ambiguous, what joel did is questionable but the entire game was building him up as a character and making his actions understandable
its where abby failed as a character because they did the opposite where they show you the most questionable moment of killing joel (especially after he fucking saved abby) and spends the rest of the characters' screentime trying to justify it, instead of setting the stage for abby as it shows all their decisions leading up to it.
if you had gotten the game in chronological order abby would be more understandable as you watch him make more and more questionable decisions until it culminates at the joel-in-one scene but as-is its just incoherent and trying to force its moral grey bullshit message when the first game did it perfectly
Eli Scott
>thats why the world is fucked up today
Collectivism and Equality is for fucking retards, fuck you. Retard.
Camden Anderson
NO user, THEY HAD THE CURE. JOEL WIPED OUT HUMANITY!
Jordan Howard
Because he's a straight white male dinosaur. Remember kids, harassment and singling people out on their skin colour, gender and sexual orientation is okay when we do it.
Angel Ramirez
Sebastian Sanchez
Why would him getting killed mean that the game was demonizing him? Ellie, Dina, Jesse, and Tommy were all pretty upset about him dying.
Gabriel Gomez
Fuck yeah, Abby! This girl trained over 4 years to bring the man that killed her father to justice, and she succeeded only to be tortured by lunatics for the whole game. My new favorite TLOU2 character. I just have a feeling we're going to see her again possibly through some convoluted happenstance where she and Ellie reconcile and fuck up some big bads. Make it happen, Neil! Also I need more Abby images.
Justin Russell
Abby is so fucking cute! That's what a real woman looks like when she takes her fate into her own hands, cultivates her body to become an actual threat.
Austin Brown
I never understood the appeal of Joel, and I wish someone on Zig Forums could explain it to me. Is it because he's more grounded and "real" than other Naughty Dog characters? I always found Nathan Drake to be much more unique and interesting. Even Joel's design is rather bland - he's an everyman with plaid shirts. Drake is a bit of a generic design, too, but his expressive face helps set him apart from other generic "some guy" characters like the protagonist of Alpha Protocol.
Seriously, I've seen Joel put on the same pantheon as Solid Snake, Big Boss, Link, Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, etc. Those legendary characters that anyone could pick out, even normies that play exclusively mobile games. How does Joel distinguish himself from the pack? Kratos was a more genuine, multi-layered character than Joel imo.
Kayden Cook
>its where abby failed as a character because they did the opposite where they show you the most questionable moment of killing joel (especially after he fucking saved abby) and spends the rest of the characters' screentime trying to justify it
Abby suffers for the entire game after killing Joel.
Gabriel Evans
>I never understood the appeal of Joel
Did you have a good father figure growing up? That’s probably why.
Ryder Collins
I don't think they were trying to make us hate him, but they needed a bullshit reason for him getting his skull crushed. By the end of part 1 we ended up disliking him because he lied to Ellie, but we understood his reasons and that inevitably the truth would come out and bit him in the ass.
Ellie however does seem they tried to make her unlikable. It's such a teen melodrama to hold a grudge for years against someone who lied to protect you. Yes, it was wrong, but at some point you gotta reconcile the decisions that were made. Her telling Joel how he robbed her of a meaningful life is such a cunt move given that she knows exactly what Joel has went through, if anything Joel knows better than her what it feels to have your life taken away. However, her experiencing the tragedy of losing someone she loved was essential for her to get a dose of reality, so yeah Joel had to die for Ellie to grow as a character. It's shame there's barely any growth.