I replayed Metal Gear Solid 2 recently and immediately remembered the disappointment I had when I realised I was playing as Raiden. This was never advertised, and everyone thought they would be playing as Snake when they bought the game. Hence a lot of people were legitimately pissed. Now when the blow of disappointment has faded, I see that the general opinion is favourable, and most are able to appreciate the plot device of adding a character that has the same cluelessness and uneasy sense of deja-vu as the game, among many other subtle self referential callouts and jokes.
Granted TLOU2 does not use subversion of expectations in the same manner, do you see yourself being able to enjoy the game better now that the shock of prematurely losing Joel, and the disappointment of not getting a game with the same delicate chemistry as the first, has softened with time ?
this is one of the more retarded opinions about tlou2. druckmann made the first game and it was extremely popular, and he has expressed nothing but love for the game. why the fuck do pinheads on Zig Forums think he hates the first game and hates the fans? you have to have drank gallons of Zig Forums kool-aid to believe this retardation
Connor Cruz
Subversion of expectations is a tool MGS2 did it well and TLOU2 didn't It's like TLOU2 heard the term and the team being as creatively bankrupt as they are thought "ah well this is how we'll make a game that won't be in the shadow of the old one!" Because TLOU1 was held in such high regards Thinking "what if we did the opposite" is such a lazy way of thinking when making a sequel
Most of this is shit you invented in your head to justify your incel victim complex
Hudson Garcia
Subverted expectations is a phrase used by Game of Thrones, Last Jedi and TLOU2 writers.
I'd make sure to never utter whose words within my lifetime if I were a writer.
Bentley Bennett
lol, revisionist history you got there. People hated the shit out of Raiden for years and years, it wasn't until he became beautiful robocop that his popularity improved.
Parker Young
Projection, the answer is projection. Loser incels lived out their daddy fantasies through the highest budget, laser focused endeavor to create a relatable, livable dad character. Ask anyone who played the first game: it wrapped up great. The existence of a sequel almost DEMANDED Joel's death. People are upset about a subjective narrative choice and keep trying to rationalize it under some sort of "read between the lines" >>>>>>objective analysis when they're just projecting their own anger onto Druckmann. It's the idea that it's okay to be upset because the quality was poor. Taste was turned into a contest. If you don't like it that's fine, it's not to your taste. In regards to quality it's basically on the same level as anything you can watch on premium cable The interactivity is a nice wrinkle. We could leave it at that. Like it or don't.
Anthony Hernandez
I gotta be honest, I loved the first one and was baffled Joel didn't die in it.
Was his death not loudly broadcast by the first game alone? Like the man basically has a deathclock on his head the minute he shows emotion.
Jason Gray
Word. Raiden was regarded as *that* part of MGS2. The same way Ocarina's Water Temple is regarded as *that* part of the game.
Raiden at one point definitely could have placed on a 10 most hated game characters list.
Brody Diaz
subversion of expectations isn't inherently anything, it's just a choice that either pays off or doesn't.
Ryan Cook
Pic unrelated
Connor Gutierrez
You could argue that before metal gear rising revengence but now that argument is not valid
Brayden Adams
Is the twist at the end of every metal gear that you're actually someone else? Hideo Kojima is a hack.
Aaron Campbell
>being disappointed to play as raiden
You just have shit taste brother.
Also this has nothing to do with "subversion." How you even managed to introduce the concept of subversion to story telling is beyond over dramatic. Stories twist and turn all the time. It's either well done, or not. It's what makes good stories vs bad stories.
Anyways.....the ONLY time you should ever be disappointed when unexpectedly being forced to play as a new cool character, is if you DON'T get to inherit their skill/move-set. That's the ONLY time. ie; Playing as Raiden in MGSV, you don't get a fucking sword etc etc. There's no point to being able to play as him. It's just a re-skin at that point.
As for Abby...she's just a hilarious looking character, looks like she was made up to cater to woke culture, woke culture being a shallow and often pathetic thing in itself. But using something hilarious to kill off something beloved....that takes some kind of arrogance. You're basically saying, "I'm so good at writing, that I can make this idea a good idea." I'm sure 'some' people loved this, only because "white cis-males" are upset etc etc. I'm also sure some naive children probably thought it was believable and shocking even.
But there are also people who are either rolling their eyes at this, or irritated they lost a trailblazer to such a funny random creation. Like: "Really? The man who separated himself from the pack, THIS is how his story ends. To a muscle women." lol. imho That's just funny story telling senpai.
The trailers kept featuring Joel too. So it appeared that Ellie definitely wasn't pissed about that, but something like a death-cult committing genocide in Jackson.
Owen Stewart
>shit taste >image of Raiden from a game that didn't exist when mgs2 came out
Raiden isn't a bad character, but when mgs 2 came out snake was a badass and Raiden looked like a kpop star and had a voice to match. It never really bothered me, metal gear as a series was already batshit weird, but I understand peoples bewilderment as to carrying out espionage and wetwork while playing as a squeaky 12 year old boy instead of the grizzled mercenary they are accustomed to.
Kevin Mitchell
If you subvert expectations you should make sure ro surpass them. That being said, I neither minded playing as Raiden, nor as Abby.
Joshua King
No, the only one where that is a twist in the end is V. In 2 it was a twist close to the beginning.
Aaron Morales
Of course not. Subversion of expectations is a lot like parody. It is extremely difficult to dp well and requires mastery of that art form to execute. Also, much like parody the trash vastly outnumbers the good stuff.
Ethan Moore
if you ask me, the big problem with Abby in TLOU2 is that you don't play as her until you've already played out Ellie's story. game would have been way better if they started you off as Abby trying to find the man who killed her father, then you find the big twist when IT'S JOEL
Ethan Harris
No I get it. Also hindsight is always 20/20, so in hindsight it's easier to appreciate the fact when they gave you a whole different character, that character came with with a whole different play-style. I personally love surprises like that.
Connor Hughes
Subverting expectations is hard to pull off successfully, and even when it is done you'll never satisfy everyone. You should only really do it if you're confident you can pull it off.
It worked out for MGS2 because it didn't go too far, you expected to play Snake but you ended up playing Raiden - it's disappointing but not devestating.
TLOU2 went too far and killed off its old protagonist, in an unsatisfying way and never avenged him. Not to mention its unsatisfying ending. If Elly avenged Joel the game would have had value in its catharsis release, but it never gives that catharsis so it's ultimately just unsatisfying.
Catharsis is important, even bleak stories (if they're any good at all) have moments of catharsis but for the life of me I can't recall anything like that in TLOU2.
Cooper Allen
Thank you. I often imagined that TLOU2 should just have been about Abby and Lev, with you realising at the end of the game that the mysterious killer Abby is looking for and has PTSD over, is Joel.
This would have been in line with what Neil Druckmann had been saying to the press for years, that the story of Joel and Ellie has been told.
The series could have then ended with a third game where Abby confronts Joel.
