Is it usable? Is it currently better than X? Is it botnet? Why does no one ever talk about it here?
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Both wayland and X are bad: designed by incompetent idiots, riddled with bugs and design errors, and they both have massive vulnerabilities that allow non-root attackers to do nasty shit such as keylogging every use on the system.
Just choose the one that breaks the least with the software you use.
I don't think he's implying something else is good.
Because its existence destroys the illusion many people have on this board that their fancy little "minimalist" programs aren't actually that minimal, being dependent on X.
I don't know about the Wayland protocol itself (except some stuff like logind dependency) but the fact that they didn't write wlroots but let some random anons do it is pretty pathetic. I mean, it's supposed to be a LOT smaller than X11, so make the library, at least.
inb4 the LD_PRELOAD "keylogger" joke
elaborate on how that's supposed to be a joke: it logs key presses, it can be installed without root, and it work on default settings.
even if you can easily build an anti-keylogger to stop it, the fact that such an attack is allowed in the first place is shameful.
Then what do you suggest?
use whatever works better for you, and be extra careful about security
Wayland is used only by Ubuntu and Ubuntu abandoned it. So now nobody uses it!
why use some incomplete meme when x just works
If I remember correctly Gnome and KDE use it already independent of what distro you're on, retard.
Ubuntu corp (TM) first tried to develop their own incompatible Wayland which turned out to be a total clusterfuck, so they too switched to Wayland.
I just looked it up. It was called Mir:
It doesn't just work. It's slow as fuck and extremely inefficient. Wayland is a protocol.
It doesn't add any component. It just specifies how the program can talk directly to the window manager, so GNUfags can throw X into the paper bin because it's useless and does nothing anymore apart from giving the frame to the window manager.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME: X IS NOT NETWORK TRANSPARENT ANYMORE! SO YOU CAN SHUT UP ABOUT THAT.
The people working on Wayland are mostly people who formerly worked on shrinking Xbloat.
can I run a gui program over ssh with wayland?
can I run an entire XFCE/LXDE/etc session over the network with wayland?
if its good then distros will switch to it when its stable. no good distro would make some buggy and incomplete thing the default
Ive used gnome with wayland for like 1-2 years now and it's pretty good, originally tried it out because I couldn't get rid of screen tearing with x. Haven't noticed any issues with it
If you install gnome in debian stretch through the installer iso it uses wayland afaik
i could live with kde but not a mobile de like gnome and i dont want a tiling wm
Laughs in systemD
gnome is pretty comfy once you get dash to dock and some other tweak you comletely forget it has that hideous app gui thing
She looks like Wayland.
No you can't with Wayland nor X.
You can simply use a VNC server.
Yes but you can do that with X and a VNC server too.
forgot that those probably don't have Wayland support yet
Loads of software will still have X dependencies, so while you might not be running X you will still need it installed. and so far there are no big ticket programs that actually require wayland so there is little to no incentive to change, unless they decide to form a cabal with the major DEs, and maybe a handful of graphical tool kits to make wayland a hard dependency, thus allowing them to shit their project right down everyone's throats, à la systemd.
Does this shit work on Wayland? theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com
Not usable, better than X, not botnet (but sometimes relies on dbus).
No one talks about it because of the first reason, that and X even when it's unfriendly to the unix philosophy it's still much MUCH easier to use and configure than wayland.
It's a joke because the vulnerability is in shared library handling (LD_PRELOAD, namely), not Wayland itself.
Right idea, wrong project.
i thought memeland was supposed to fix the fact that X clients can fuck with each other. it's still probably shit though, like every existing form of program isolation
That's not what I would call a joke: it means Wayland not only is not secure, but cannot ever be made secure without changing other parts of the operating system.
It means that motherfucking windows vista is more secure.
you can in X11 but then the guy you SSHd into can haxor your shit
why in fucks name would you want to do that? the entire remote bullshit in X11 is not only bloat but a security and performance problem
You do realise that X hasn't supported that in years, right?
The fact you don't know this means you never actually used it in the first place, if you did you would have realised this.
It's the same for me.
I do run into issues and the whole thing is just really slow in general, but I blame GNOME for that.
Not with application made after 2000 and I'm not sure X11 still has support for that bullshit.
Yes you can retard. Pic related, taken from the ssh manpage.
What? firefox works over x11 forward and so does any other prog I have ever tried. X has security extensions for running untrused applications but I don't know how well they work.
this. you can with X
you can spread an X session / desktop across 50 computers on 50 different monitors with X.
can wayland do this?
if wayland could do this then I would have no problem with wayland, but as far as I know it cannot, so it is not a viable replacement of X
I'm doing it right now nigger.
You do realise that X has supported that for years, right?
The fact you don't know this means you never actually used it in the first place, if you did you would have realised this.
YOU CAN EVEN X11 FORWARD FROM LINUX->WINDOWS/OSX
these are literally wayland shills saying you can't.
The point is X only gets an image.
Is it faster than a VNC?
This is what I don't get about X. If I forward the X session to another computer, is the server processing and rendering the session or is the client?
You can test this out for yourself very easily by doing an ssh -X and running top on both computers.
should use the compression option too. it will lag even with a 100m wired connection if you dont.
The server is processing and the client is rendering. With VirtualGL you can let the server process OpenGL applications locally on it's graphics card and let the client display the results. With x2x you can share mouse and keyboard uncomplicated via multiple X servers. You can even do stuff like create x servers with virtual framebuffers (no graphics card needed) and share that session to other computers or run multiple X servers without even having a graphics card. X can do a lot of stuff and Zig Forums would know if they weren't just a bunch of larpers parroting what they read on reddit.
X is absolute, unadulterated, pure fucking garbage, and I wholeheartedly welcome the advent of Wayland, or literally any other display server/protocol that comes along and takes X to the fucking gallows once and for all.
The model as a whole is extremely outdated, visibly inefficient, insecure, and it such a fucking mess of spaghetti code and extensions and life support that only a few people on the planet still understand how to actually maintain it. Their opinion on X? "Kill it with fire, please."
For a group of people that love to lambaste Windows users for having "babyduck syndrome", I've never seen more babyducks when it comes to the retards peddling the "x-xorg just werks" shit and spreading dumbfuck FUD about Wayland. (Of course, in all fairness, it doesn't help when all the distros out there wanted to be the first kids on the block to use Wayland and started pushing it out before it was 100% ready, leading to the average retarded joe to swear off of it.)
Similarly, for a group of people that jerk themselves off over software minimalism, there sure are a lot of people that love to suck the bloated dick of X. The same people who cry "Systemd does way too much for an init system!" seem to have no problem with all of the shit a display server shouldn't be doing, and they're too fucking retarded to understand that the Wayland protocol will eventually/has already gotten standardized extensions/addons for the sorts of shit they're bitching about (for instance, screensharing is now implemented under Pipewire, which on a side note, will kill another cancer, PA, eventually)
Simply put, and in simple user terms--X is responsible for a lot of the jankiness of the Linux desktop (as you'd expect of a display server that's been kept on life support for 30 years), and when Wayland is eventually adopted, it'll go a LONG way towards bringing Linux to the fucking 21st century.
Good video on the subject.
Wayyyland is crap too. And 99% of your GUI programs still require X11. So just run Xorg or use vconsole. X11 needs a replacement but Wayland is not the one.
this. if (((red hat))) and ĉïå start to push it, many if not most distros will fall for the bandwagon PSYOP.
no. just no. use xfce, kde or some WM. gnome is 100% pozz, all gnome people do is remove features and make it uglier.
We're just going to shill wayland everywhere and talk about how shit X is until redhat eventually forces it down everyone's throat like they did with systemd.
the dock on xfce is trash and kde is bloat
Listen, faggot, if "any program which is in a position to do this has already won" refers to a position attainable without root, the system is not secure in the slightest.
Saying "Wayland is only one part of an otherwise secure system" is the exact opposite of the truth.
Unironically kill yourself.
You're a fucking faggot developing some GUI software for a microscopic market share,why do you expect a multi-billion dollar megacorp such as Nvidia to cater to your shitty work for free?
You dumb nigger, that's not how the world works.
Also apparently support for locking the pointer to the active window has been in the works for almost 4 years and is still not widely adopted, lmao Linux.
Nice strawman. Could you point to the posts saying that "Xorg just werks"? Protip: both Xorg and Wayland can be shit.
I mean, explain this:
How do you make anything minimalist when Wayland just removed 90% of Xorg and said "just implement it in your compositor, lol!!!1!1"? And if this library didn't exist? What about the fact that Wayland is just freedesktopware, meaning that it only cares about Linux (just go fuck yourselves, BSDs)?
And how do you manage to make that retarded strawman when you faggots aren't even talking about this, but only about the fact that their favourite WM doesn't exist as a compositor yet? I'd also like a good terminal emulator, not some VTE abomination or GPU accelerated bulshit.
Did you see Drew sperging out in the HN comments? news.ycombinator.com
jesus christ the freetards over there.
"Nvidia is a bad actor because they refuse to do as they demand! Capitalist pigs!"
this butthurt is delicious
wayland's responses here sound just like microsoft's responses when asked the question about xbox requiring network connections
Now remember, that's not wayland being especially bad: that's the entire FOSS world encouraging ego stroking over results
Do you want a (you), piggy?
Honestly nvidia buyers should be shot on sight regardless
Man, Nvidia owner cattle tears sure are yummy.
I have been running Sway for a few months now. It is fantastic. Minor problems, but that is to be expected from a beta. The sway developers are doing an amazing job.
Your statement about X not being network transparent is somewhat disingenuous. X is now configured to require that you flip a config knob for proper network transparency.
Bullshit. There's a reason no one supports Nvidia's EGLStreams approach and that's because it's complete fucking garbage. Every Wayland compositor that's tried supporting it had a fucking terrible time and even in cases where they sort of got it working (like Gnome's compositor and Drew's own Sway) the results were so finicky they couldn't recommend using it.
Why won't Nvidia implement GBM? It's because their proprietary graphics driver is a niggerrigged clusterfuck and making it behave like a standard Linux graphics driver would take a complete rewrite. They're too lazy for this so instead of unfucking their own driver and implementing standard APIs, they instead make their own crappy API which hardly works and insist everyone else has to use it.
Why would Nvidia bother implementing yet another Linux exclusive API when less than 5% of their customers are on Linux?
Don't pretend GBM is standard by any reasonable meaning of the word.
It's more standard than EGLStreams and actually works despite its issues. It doesn't help that Nvidia is used to throwing their weight around on Windows and suffers from a terrible case of NIH syndrome.
I have a hard time believing that with the advent of scamcoin.
AMD is supposed to be better all around for that but you still see shit posted of bitcoin idiots posting pictures of literally stacks of nvidia gpu's 10 feet high for their bitcoin rigs.
wayland is seen largely as a joke because you'll still end up pulling in Xserver as a depend anyway if you actually want to do anything.
In that wayland has failed to branch away from X and has just become another bloated hacked together mess stringed ontop of it.
The idea was admirable and i still wish for it to succeed but in it's current state it's literally just X+another damn protocal.
It's also much slower than Xorg so if you wanted to switch to it for "minimal speed" reasons, don't bother.
I don't like the nVidia monopoly any more than you do, but the choices for years now are either blow money on underpowered joke hardware, or sacrifice decent desktop drivers to buy team green.
Can you please start using using proper terms on technology board?
Easiest way to spot newb larper
Let's call things by their real names pumpkin, ok?
I speak for Zig Forums
Easiest way to spot the jew
Bloat shit, there is no need for a service to maintain graphics drivers, just write one for your program - no blaming the hardware, and the driver performance is on your hands only.
pic related, boomers in tech were redpilled as fuck, handing over driver control to manufacturers was a mistake.
cant do that when the hardware is proprietary and they were much simpler too when people were doing that
Yes. Old graphics cards were literally just framebuffers the CPU pushed the screen contents to. "GUI acceleration" if available at all was limited to blitting and simple primitives like the drawing of lines. Modern graphics cards are basically computers for themselves, you cannot compare the complexity at all.
user, have I got the solution for you...
It's not garbage, unlike X
cant use before it has openbox or something like it. i dont want the foot de or kde or a tiling wm
There's an Openbox clone using wlroots but it's very WIP, I don't even know if it's in a working state. You can try contributing to that if you want.
Sadly there's not much love for Wayland but we can change that. I'm working on my own compositor as well.