Bakunin vs Marx

History judges that Bakunin was right.

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Other urls found in this thread:

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/bakunin/
libcom.org/library/michael-bakunin-against-insurrectionism-ren-berthier

BAKUNINIST GANG RISE UP

oh wait nooooo NOT LIKE THAT
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/bakunin/

Well yes, history does show us that Marx's advocation of electoralism was a mistake and that Bakunin was right to call for the working class organizing and taking action outside of bourgeois democracy. Unfortunately Bakunin isn't known for this, or any of his ideas, but is instead remembered for quotes about muh joos or predicting the DotP being a dictatorship over the proletariat.

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Thank you for the Bakunin meme!

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The history of anarchism is literally just a series of absolutely crushing failures. I won't argue that Marxism has been an overwhelming success or anything, but all of the historical examples you guys point to are examples of anarchists establishing some commune for a few months before every last one of them are shot and anarchism is replaced by some other system. You fetishize your own lost battles and your failed revolutions. Shit on tankies all you want; they're red fascists, they glorify violence, they're not actual socialists, etc. but the historical examples they point to are at least examples of them winning, and not examples of them being brutally crushed and their political project destroyed.

Makes no difference what so ever.


This implies anarchists have ever won at anything ever, which is false.

Your welcome, do yourself a favor and read him or about him because what he actually wrote on hasn't translated into wide knowledge on him. Here's a translation of a French article about the relationship of Bakunin and Insurrectionists, pretty short read that dispells some of the memes surrounding Bakunin and Anarchism in general. libcom.org/library/michael-bakunin-against-insurrectionism-ren-berthier

Interesting. So, how do you explain 1) the overwhelming success of Marxist-Leninist states and 2) the almost immediate failure of any historical attempt at anarchism?

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thanks op

Both were spooked as fuck. The real chad was Pierre Joseph Proudhon with his market socialist theory, called mutualism.

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are you saying bakunin was wrong about the benevolent intellectual jewish race?!!

So did the International at the time.

Bakunin was really great I wish more people would read him.

Yes, Bakunin was spooked by anti-semitism and this has unfortunately tainted his critique by insinuating that muh joos were the threat rather than hierarchical organization changing proletarian politicians and leaders into effective bourgeoisie.

It's a damn shame that even other anarchists neglect him, but hopefully we can change this by recommending his work to people we know and organize with.

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sorry Karl

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Based Bakunin destroying Marxists with facts and logic.

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and they say anarchists don't have theory

The best and brightest.

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what the fuck im an anarchist now

And somehow 'tankies' are exempt from this "history of crushing failures', despite the total collapse of the Eastern Bloc, and the reversion of every state socialist project into deregulated market capitalism, aside from a handful of sickly pariah states?

thats because jews in the past were very conservative do you realize that? like the true ass "israeli" middle-eastern jews migrants. Nayetayu however his name is types. They were like that. All for racial purity, all for bourgeoisie politics, all for hierarchy, full capitalism since they ran shady ass markets.

Not all jews are like that, even less so today than before. The world back then just sucked more. What Zig Forumstards dont get tho is that there is a big ass difference between just a dude who is working class and happens to be racially jewish and president Nayatayu and his party, actual hard ass Zionists: Nationalists, Conservatives, Fundamentalists, Capitalist, Imperialists.

Dumb post with a whole bunch of conjecture. Give me some sources for your claims about jewish masses being more conservative than other demographics.
Probably the opposite. After jews were granted their own nation, they started leaning towards nationalism and conservatism.

I think there is a difference for having a somewhat stable superpower that spawns over half of Eurasia, with China, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Yemen, Angola, Cuba etc. going red for over half a century, with decades of peace and development, a somewhat stable political system and a normalizing society and a locally restricted experiment spawning out of a civil war for a few years that never managed to go beyond war communism.

The same way you could argue that some capitalist governments, like Britain or the US, managed to abolish unemployment, but that would be similarily dishonest, as both was just a temporary measure during WWII and the aftermath and not comparable to a systemic abolition of unemployment like all Marxist-Leninist states. You can do pretty much all kinds of funny stuff during a Civil War. Look at Pol Pot, the guy managed to implement what is practically völkisch Primitivism that would make Varg blush, that it was unsustainable and completely idiotic is obvious. Or look at Rojava, the newest showcase for LibSocs, an entity restricted to a Syrian region that is entirely dependent on having good relations with a great power (either US or Russia) to survive and doesn't even promote proper socialism but some form of mutualism.

The only tendency that has even more of a history of failure is Leftcommunism, unless you count that one uprising in Sri Lanka in the 70s as Leftcommunist or some Maoist militas which are basically sharing Leftcommunist platforms.

You guys blame the crushing of the anarchist societies on the "tankies" (which is dubious itself) but as you it display here, would gladly brush off the international sanctions and attempts of destroying the small remaining socialist countries or even gloat about it.

Seeing Stirnerites (muh spooks n shiat) choosing to die on the antisemitic hill is hilarious

I don't think feminism was even thought of then, I could be wrong.

however I see more Mutualists than Collectivists so yeah no.

I already pretty much know that. radlibs who defend Zionism somehow are worse than working class jews and I say that with no irony.

that's because there's no such thing as antisemitism. its a running joke.

While most accusations these days are ridiculous (you are getting labeled as antisemtic if you hate bankers), there is something like antisemitism which is different from vanilla racism. While normal racism comes from a position of superiority (seeing other people as savages incapable for being civilized) antisemitism has a conspiratorial aspect, seeing Jews as puppet masters who rule the world from a secret kabal. There is no other ethnicity upon which such a thing is projected, although other cultures sometimes have their "own" Jews, like Armenians in t*rkey, etc.

Most working class Jews are usually less Zionist than white petit bourgeois radlibs. I mean, think about it: Antisemitism and Zionism share a bunch of presuppositions. Both ideologies rely on the premise that Jews are somehow "foreign" and do not belong in the West, now imagine being a regular Jewish worker, would you want to be seen as a foreign element, if you have all your friends, family in the country you are living in, share the culture, the food and the language?

Most Jews who emigrated to Israel are often petit bourgeois or very well off. I mean, Israel treats poor Jewish immigrants like crap.

And as one poster here recently said that Jews "rub him the wrong way": This is because the media only shows absolute caricatures of Jews. In Germany, there is a Jew that is terminally fat and looks generally unwashed and unshaved, and he is a comedian that calls women who got raped cunts and makes pedophilic jokes on stage but goes ballistic when someone makes an antisemtic joke (Oliver Polak). In talk shows you have ultra-konservative Jews who think you should deregulate the economy and nuke North Korea, and harass everybody who is on the left with the antisemitism spook. I assume it's similar in burgerland with people like Shapiro. I can absolutely understand how the common person, constantly confronted with these individuals on TV, develops antisemtic prejudices, but most of these people have never met a regular working class Jew, because 90% of the time you can't tell they are Jewish.

It's almost like a feedback loop that the MSM keeps playing: Elevate the most comical disgusting individuals who happen to be Jews and display all Jewish cliches on TV, and then hit everybody with the accusation of antisemitism - absolutely perfect tactic of divide and conquer. It is baffling how many radlibs get so fucking mad when you talk about Israel, as if there is a new Shoa immanent.

As an Israeli, I'll say this: you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Please stop talking out of your ass and spreading such lies.


Bullshit. In early aliyot, olim (Jews who migrated to Israel) were proletarians and this is why early Israel was quite socialist/left-leaning. A large number of kibbutzim were collectivist and even Marxist during this time. Most olim were also irreligious and they conflicted with the already present religious Jews who lived peacefully for a long time among the Muslims there, and this conflict continues to this day.

this

Wasn't Marx critical of the jews aswell?

Yes, but Marx's criticism wasn't explicitly anti-semitic like Bakunin's was. Arguably they made similar points and the 19th century jewish bourgeoisie were as porky as porky coule be, but Bakunin fell directly into the trap of bigotry.

This is one of the most retarded things I've ever seen on an imageboard, and I came here expecting noisy deepthroating of circumcised penis.

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I didn't say they were "anti-Jew". Read my post again or kill yourself.

What, they're trying to stir up anti-semitism by showing disgusting Capitalists?
Hardly. Those are regular Jews. There has never been a Jew indistinguishable from whites, no matter how much other Jews will lie about this.

Fuck off, retard

I bet Michele Tachenberg is wither than you will ever be in your life. post pic lmao

Marx was naive about the state controlling every aspect of life (totalitarianism). I consider marxist -leninist red fascist that deserve the bullet.

it is. it's fucking stupid. history is to learn lessons, especially for leftists. So good for us.

Only fashies dwell in the past like morons.

The problem with this bullshit is that Marx also regularly accused Bakunin of advocating for a police-state, which also eventually turned out to be true when Makhno created his short-lived bandit kingdom. Anarchists will never admit these failures and will be doomed to repeat them until the end of time.

lol

WEW

Go home Trotsky.

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Unironically true. Stalin was more democratic and parliamentarian than most other contenders in the CPSU.

what kind of bandits though?